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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
 You're truely amazing, Zen!
I've learned how to powergame a character in NWN, but I'm nowhere near your level. 
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:44 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
Not mentioned so far is the very natural multi class paladin/fighter. The extra feats gained by a few levels of fighter can make the paladin a very complete melee mayhem machine, with out seriously impacting the paladins bonuses.
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Mon Dec 01, 2003 4:38 pm |
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konny666
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 219
Location: Babylon 6 |
A few more words on multi-classing...
can come in VERY handy if you're playing in a "low-magic" or even *NO* magic world!
You know you're in a no-magic world if you start putting points into your "Parry" ability... *snicker* |
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Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:50 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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It's funny how many of those 'low magic' servers allow you to create wizards and sorcerers.
Without magical items to balance things out all the other classes can do is stand and watch in horror as the Sorcerer (in particular) or Wizard screams "The POWER.... THE POWER!!!!!" and lays waste to the server.
Not that they can stop a well built sorcerer anyways... well... you can in Neverwinter Nights because there's no fly spell. Typically you cannot without great preparation.
No challenge in playing a wizard or sorcerer. That's why I play physical fighting types (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, Monk).
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:51 pm |
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Iron Man
Dazed and Confused
Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 773
Location: Location Location |
Because I know nothing about D&D I'm too chicken to multiclass. I can barely make a good single class character!
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This box secretly turns into a picture and laughs at YOU personally when you're not looking. |
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Fri Dec 05, 2003 8:26 pm |
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konny666
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 219
Location: Babylon 6 |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
Without magical items to balance things out all the other classes can do is stand and watch in horror as the Sorcerer (in particular) or Wizard screams "The POWER.... THE POWER!!!!!" and lays waste to the server.
Not that they can stop a well built sorcerer anyways... well... you can in Neverwinter Nights because there's no fly spell. Typically you cannot without great preparation.
No challenge in playing a wizard or sorcerer. That's why I play physical fighting types (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, Monk).
I disagree because if you're going to start a wizard at level 1, and (for example) you don't have any henchmen or a gang of adventurers to play with, you'll usually have a tough time. Using "tactics" is all fine and dandy but what if the DM starts controlling the monsters, or the server uses advanced AI scripts so the monsters all use "surround and swarm" techniques so you can't just "Color Spray" and then coup-de-grace while they're dazed. In many SP mods, pure wizzies have a tough time as well. I've noticed the easiest SP mods are those which the author has balanced so that wizards can get through it. Then all the Fighter-types start ranting about how the module was too easy...
Monks can indeed provide a challenge, but not was much as a wizard/sorc given usual circumstances. Ftr/Rgr/Pal usually makes the game a lot easier. Cleric/Druid probably makes most games the easiest. Depending on the domains you choose, a Cleric can be like a Wizard who wears Plate Mail and swings a badass morningstar!
On a sidenote, I don't see anything wrong with low-magic worlds allowing Wiz/Sorc's *BUT* I think they should have limited the magic available.
(Kinda how like Dragonlance started out by blocking all cleric spells.... very cool, makes everything more "gritty" and realistic)
I'm creating a low-magic mod, but I'm blocking PCs from access to any spell higher than level 3 AND any spell which has a named NPC in the title. This should makes things considerably more challenging, and hopefully the non-existence of munchkin magic items should prevent Fighter types from having a cakewalk. But one problem I can foresee is that if players get to level 20, they'll be immune to most magic since they can easily make spell save DC's for 3rd level spells at that point. |
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Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:47 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Wizard level 1? No problem. Use one of the combat familiars (hellhound, panther) and summon creature spells until you're powerful enough to hold your own. Also at very low level ... carry a good set of armor.
Before a fight cast your summon, make sure your familiar is around, and then put on a suit of studded leather and equip a simple weapon like a mace, crossbow, or quarterstaff (avoid all buck-and-a-quarter staves... they're overcharging you).
Your familiar and summoned creature should do ok... and if you're wearing something suitable for armor... even just leather or studded leather will help a lot as a wizard... you won't have THAT much of an arcane spell failure.
Plus, make your con at least 14 and take the toughness feat. That goes without saying. In fact, it's often worth it to make your con 16, your int 15, and let the rest fall into place.
This isn't how you'd play 'real' D&D, of course... but with tabletop you'd have a party and followers who don't kill you accidently/run screaming into battle, cast a spell while surrounded, and evaporate under attacks of opportunity.
Once you hit level 3 and get web it's pretty much OVER. Web + crossbow.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:09 pm |
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txiabxyooj
Fox Spirit
Joined: 06 Dec 2001
Posts: 971
Location: here, there & everywhere |
so, it looks like everyone is coming down on the side of no multi-classing. maybe this just reflects some deep psychological need, but i love to multi-class my characters. currently i am playing a level 7 wizard/8 fighter who will eventually gain a couple of levels in the pale master category. i intend to max out at a level 10 fighter, 18 wiz, and 12 PM. maybe this isn't the best combo, however, it is fun to play. i don't know much about running numbers. like the simpleton that i am i stick with what i like; that is part of the fun behind character creation. some of the characters i have enjoyed playing the most are the most unsuccessful characters. in the end it all comes down to having a good time. if this means stream-lining your character down to the smallest detail, well, go for it. i like the variety and quarks that can be found through mixing classes. i am sure that Xen is scratching his head right about now. 
_________________
"The origin of things, if things have an origin, cannot be revealed to me, if revealed at all, until I have travelled very far from it, and many revolutions of the sun must precede my first dawn. The light as it appears hides the candle." --Santayana
=member of the worshippers of the written word=
=member of the Non-flamers' guild= |
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Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:48 pm |
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konny666
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 219
Location: Babylon 6 |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
Wizard level 1? No problem. Use one of the combat familiars (hellhound, panther) and summon creature spells until you're powerful enough to hold your own. Also at very low level ... carry a good set of armor.
Wizards can't wear armor. ;P
Using those 2 as meatshields is fine, but what if the enemy's ranged artillery (archers) focus on the spellcaster rather than the familiars?
As well, the crossbow isn't really all that useful. Only one shot per round and wizards aren't going to hit much with their low attack score. And putting all those points into CON as you suggested means DEX will probably suffer more than it should.
Throwing a web up first is usually a good first-strike tactic at lower levels, but once you start advancing you'll get the enemy mages who can dispel your web, monsters who can make their saves. And entanglement doesn't stop enemy spellcasters/archers from doing their thing anyway. 
The trade-off with choosing a combat familiar means you can't choose, for example, the pixie who makes a perfect replacement for a rogue henchman (disable traps/open locks). But yes, for lower levels, a panther is probably a better choice unless you already have a tank henchman.
Another bane of wizards are the enemy rogues who use stealth and back-stab, woo, fun that.
quote:
Before a fight cast your summon, make sure your familiar is around, and then put on a suit of studded leather and equip a simple weapon like a mace, crossbow, or quarterstaff (avoid all buck-and-a-quarter staves... they're overcharging you).
Your familiar and summoned creature should do ok... and if you're wearing something suitable for armor... even just leather or studded leather will help a lot as a wizard... you won't have THAT much of an arcane spell failure.
Plus, make your con at least 14 and take the toughness feat. That goes without saying. In fact, it's often worth it to make your con 16, your int 15, and let the rest fall into place.
This isn't how you'd play 'real' D&D, of course... but with tabletop you'd have a party and followers who don't kill you accidently/run screaming into battle, cast a spell while surrounded, and evaporate under attacks of opportunity.
Once you hit level 3 and get web it's pretty much OVER. Web + crossbow.
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Mon Dec 08, 2003 9:00 pm |
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konny666
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 219
Location: Babylon 6 |
quote:
Originally posted by txiabxyooj
so, it looks like everyone is coming down on the side of no multi-classing. maybe this just reflects some deep psychological need, but i love to multi-class my characters.
LOL, that's not true at all. It all depends on the constraints of the mod/server/PW you're making your character for. Depending on the limitations, the type of world, etc., different character "builds" can be considered as most optimal. For example, for a HotU-running multiplayer server that allows up to level 40, a pure wizard40 probably will get his ass kicked by a 30 fighter/10 WM or even a 30 wizard/10 fighter. And especially a 20wizard/20fighter! In the NWN or SOU official campaigns, even the most sub-optimal character build can dance right through it. In many warrior-themed campaigns, Rogues usually get their asses kicked since they can't Sneak Attack anyone (esp. true for Undead-focussed campaigns). And despite what Xen says, there are many mods out there which can kick a wizard's ass, it's just a matter of designing the mod to exploit his weaknesses.
So there is no universally wicked character build. Show me one you think is such, and I'll toss you a module where you can get torn to shreds. That's the fun part of course; figuring out how to play it so you DON'T get torn to shreds. At least not in the first 5 minutes anyways. |
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Mon Dec 08, 2003 9:07 pm |
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goshuto
Wanderer
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1142
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What konny said. There's no character that's able to excel in all situations. And there are many weird combinations that actually make excellent characters. For example, Bard/Red Dragon Disciple/Weapon Master. Wizards rule in PvP, but only at level 20, and that's only when they manage to cast either Timestop, or some combination of Mind Fog/Hold Monster (or similar) before the opponent can reach them. And I believe crossbows are utterly useless in the hands of wizards, Web spell or no.
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"Tree stuck in cat. Firemen baffled."--Simcity 3K
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."--Soren Aabye Kierkegaard |
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Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:34 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Hey, you just described my new favorite character! 
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Tue Dec 09, 2003 1:06 am |
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goshuto
Wanderer
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1142
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No! That's my character, don't you go copying me!
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"Tree stuck in cat. Firemen baffled."--Simcity 3K
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."--Soren Aabye Kierkegaard |
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Tue Dec 09, 2003 1:23 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
He's already made. I made him the moment I installed HotU.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Tue Dec 09, 2003 1:30 am |
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txiabxyooj
Fox Spirit
Joined: 06 Dec 2001
Posts: 971
Location: here, there & everywhere |
quote:
Originally posted by konny666
Show me one you think is such, and I'll toss you a module where you can get torn to shreds.
 sounds like you are throwing down the gauntlet. i hope you don't mind if i don't pick it right up.
_________________
"The origin of things, if things have an origin, cannot be revealed to me, if revealed at all, until I have travelled very far from it, and many revolutions of the sun must precede my first dawn. The light as it appears hides the candle." --Santayana
=member of the worshippers of the written word=
=member of the Non-flamers' guild= |
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Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:37 am |
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