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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
| Poll Results and New Poll |
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Heroes of Might & Magic V was the subject of the last poll and I'd say the results look positive for UbiSoft - at least among our readers. A pretty big 31% have become interested since the news that Starforce has been dropped, while nearly 26% have some interest but will wait and see. 22% are not interested at all and 20% always planned to buy it. Broadly, that means a little over 50% have definite plans to pick it up and only 20% have no interest.
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<br>I was thinking about this next topic when a quote from David Gaider prompted me to follow it through (thanks <a href="http://www.sorcerers.net/" target="_blank">Sorcerer's Place</a>). It might be a little hard with the confines of these polls but here goes: have RPGs improved since the '90s?
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<br>Since there could be so many interpretations of "improve", I'll let you choose your own apart from excluding the obvious graphical advances - unless you feel that in itself has genuinely improved RPG gameplay. Feel free to chime in with comments on what you think has or hasn't improved.
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<br>Here's a bit from <a href="http://www.sorcerers.net/index_dragon_age_forum_highlights.php#000247" target="_blank">David Gaider</a> on Ultima VII:<blockquote><em>I remember enjoying this game a great deal, for sure, and it was an excellent achievement for its time.
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<br>I would hesitate, however, to hold it up to modern games for comparison at any level. I suspect there's more than a little bit of nostalgia involved there, though perhaps you disagree.</em></blockquote>Hit the poll on the left. |
Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:20 am |
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Hindukönig
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Posts: 170
Location: Halle (Saale) / Nuremberg [Germany] |
quote:
I would hesitate, however, to hold [Ultima VII] up to modern games for comparison at any level. I suspect there's more than a little bit of nostalgia involved there, though perhaps you disagree.
That's funny - Ultima VII is still one of my main comparison when buying games:
Big, big world with much to explore? Night-and-day-cycle for world&NPCs? High degree of interactivity? Long, interesting story with unusual plotelements? Partymembers? Atmosphere? Etc.
However, I voted for "don't know", because Ultima VII was an exception, not the rule, as I see it. |
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Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:26 am |
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KasperFauerby
Village Dweller
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 18
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A very interesting question! Well, I agree that there probably is some sort of nostalgia when thinking back to the glorious days of the 90' (and earlier) RPG games. For me I had some of the best gaming experiences I've ever had with games such as Ultima 6, Ultima 7 (both of them), Ultima Underworld 1/2, Lands of Lore 1, Eye of the beholder, Daggerfall, Might & Magic 3-5 - and countless more great RPGs from that time.
But then I thought about it and came to the conclusion that, hey, some of the newer RPGs are really cool as well  I'm just in love with the Gothic games - those are truely masterpieces if you ask me - and I've also enjoyed games such as Divine Divinity, Morrowind and recently Oblivion. Add to that some of the free modules for NWN, Baldurs Gate 2, Planescape Torment etc. On the other hand, those newer RPGs usually lack much of the "hardcoreness" of the earlier games that I kinda enjoyed.
So my vote went for "Some things better, some things worse".
- Kasper |
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Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:51 am |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
I did the 'some better, some worse' option ... I wasn't playing RPG's during the early-mid 90's, but there is some great stuff that I have played from the late 90's. BG & PS:T just to name two.
But then there is BG2, KotOR, VtM: Bloodlines and (of course) Gothic 1 & 2 from the 00's - and those are my faves. Plus a bunch of others.
Mike
_________________
Dopelar effect (n.) The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Check out my blog. |
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Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:27 am |
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Guest
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Too much focus on the story line has lead to the exclusion of exploration and other things deemed not necessary to the story-line. This is particularly true in Bioware games as D. Gader himself has noted in posts.
Hence, many crpg have become nothing more than interactive movies. In effect, the player gets to select a plot direction from a list of conversation choices, for example. BUT the sense of WONDER is GONE.
Gothic and The Elder Scrolls are the two exceptions that make computer roleplaying still worthwhile to me personally. |
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Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:41 am |
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ShadowMoses
Head Merchant
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 69
Location: UK |
Some things have improved but they tend to be more useability related: interface, mini maps, detailed journals etc.
Gfx, physics, animations etc. have had little impact for me, they just look nice.
Sadly i think the important aspects of roleplaying games have deteriorated somewhat.
The first two 3rds of bloodlines is kinda the direction i would like to see modern rpg's taking (and dreaming: TB, party based combat) and the last 3rd is kind of where they are.
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Dak’kon: "Your reasons for your incessant clicking are not *known* to me."
-=:ASHES:=- || -=:Xenus-hq:=- |
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Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:46 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowMoses
Some things have improved but they tend to be more useability related: interface, mini maps, detailed journals etc.
My thoughts exactly, as far as the positives. On the downside, mainstream "old school" RPGs are pretty much dead as developers have tried to make the genre more accessible to casual gamers. What we've gained on the technical side, we've largely lost when it comes to plain ol' gameplay.
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:35 pm |
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Guest
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What's been said in this thread already definitely is some of what is happening to RPGs right now.
Another big problem, is that there's no real challenge to the new RPGs. Developers want to appeal to as many gamers as possible, so they make their games interesting, but not challenging. It no longer feels rewarding to beat a game or get past a puzzle or a hard element in a game. Because there is no real challenge to them.
Remember in Bard's Tale and other games, some of the puzzles that they had, that would have you racking your brain for a few hours or even days, until you finally figured out the solution? The puzzles that actually required being something more than the "lowest common denominator"? These were puzzles which actual real-world intelligence to get past, and this in itself made the game much more enjoyable.
It's great to be able to say "I slew that dragon because I had the +5 broadsword of death that I picked up along the way", but it's even better to be able to say "I solved that puzzle because I was intelligent enough to be able to work out the solution."
Without challenge games, and RPGs especially, lose a vital element. And there are very few RPGs that have this element in them these days. Developers are afraid to challenge their players, and so what we are left with are games that you "glide through" rather than games that you have to wrestle with at times (in a good way), and come out the other side feeling like we actually have defeated the big foozle at the end, instead of sort of watching it happen, and going "hmm, that was kind of fun.. sort of". |
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Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:07 pm |
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Carpathic
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 31
Location: Kitchener, Ontario |
Few games before or since have even compared to Might and Magic: World of Xeen for me...I have wasted more hours of my life on that one game than I can even comprehend... I remember being physically frustrated because I could not level up anyhigher because there was litterally no more money in the game. Though I also remember being frustrated taht I couldn't fight the last baddie myself...I mean comeone I was level 265 (supposedly 265 was the absolute max...though until I found a program that hacked the gold I could never reach it)
_________________
The biggest rocks are but grains of sand to an ocean. |
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Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:47 pm |
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Guest
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I’m going to have to completely disagree with Gaider here. Other old cRPGs may not have stood the test of time but not Ultima VII. To this day, it still exceeds most games in terms of sheer interactivity, detail, and content. The player was able to manipulate and move almost any object within vicinity whereas in BioWare titles the objects are just static set pieces placed there for no purpose other than to further embellish the surroundings. NPC schedules were far more fleshed out and convincing than those in the Gothic series with even the most minute things being mapped out such as guards turning on lampposts at night. The world was completely seamless; your suspension of disbelief or sense of immersion was never jarred by any loading screens. The moral implications when committing heinous acts, such as killing, stealing, or trespassing, were well implemented. There were a countless number of amusing activities that could be performed that were irrelevant to the main quest such as baking bread, delivering milk, spying on a cheating spouse, or gambling in the casinos.
Combat, on the other hand, was a bit wonky but never the sole reason why I enjoyed the game or other cRPGs for that matter (the Elder Scrolls games prior to Oblivion had horrendous combat yet they still remain my favorite games).
So saying that Ultima VII was merely “an excellent achievement for its time” is equivalent to a slap in the face for a game that’s so much more forward-thinking than any generic BioWare title I can name. |
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Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:58 pm |
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palu
Guest
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I would say the question is hard to answer as there is nothing to apply the quality measurement to. Apart from small indie developers, there seems to be nothing but Action or ACTION RPGs offered. Some module developers try to bend NWN in the cRPG direction, but they have to fight the framework. In my opinion, there are a few major reasons for this development:
- The huge success of Diablo (a very good ACTION RPG, but no cRPG)
- Multiplayer (You can't let the other players wait; there is a constant demand for action)
- MTV/ADHD (If there isn't something flickering at all times the gamer might lose interest)
This means there is no desire to produce anything that slows down the action, neither in the form of difficult puzzles, nor in the form of lengthy dialogue. It MIGHT be permissible to have difficult boss fights, but that's about it; you can exercise the trigger finger, but go easy on the brain. |
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Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:27 pm |
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Guest
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Computer games are going the way of hollywood movies. All flash, no substance.. formulaic. |
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Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:03 pm |
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roqua1
Guest
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Clearly rpgs have declined to a horrible level of utter crappyness. There is no such thing as an action rpg. There are rpgs and action games, so the rpg market is basically dead, and has been for a while.
When I was a kid I could go to a store and buy a great rpg I never even heard about. That’s how I got darksun, darklands, blade of destiny, etc. Now RoA 4 won’t even be TB.
Most of the “crpg” fans never played the best crpgs of the 90’s. They came in during the late 90’s and caught the tale end of the death of real rpgs (with FO 2), and hoped on the “resurgent” rpg bandwagon with BG and the rest of that crap. Or they came in more recently with the non-rpg twitch action games. And they are too fancy to try out the better games of the past, even though they are free and great.
I’ll try anything, and I’ll give it a good try. I know I won’t like Oblivion, but I’ll eventually play it. If it was free now I definitely would play it.
But since the poll asks if rpgs are better now than then, and I’m going to hazard a guess that most of the poll users never even played a game in the 90’s, or maybe just a couple from the late 90’s, it seems like this question could only reasonably be answered by people that played those games.
I could answer a poll about if tampons have improved over the years. But since I never used one I guess my opinion wouldn’t really matter. I understand that getting accurate results from these polls, or any internet poll, will never have perfect results, but this one has no way of getting even somewhat sensible results. I cannot even comprehend how someone that played crpgs in the early to mid 90’s could ever say that games are better now. Or even that anything, besides graphics, sounds, VO, and in some cases UI (console ports have worse or just as bad AI), has improved at all. Crpgs aren’t maturing; they have devolved into FPS’s with talking and an economy. Thank God for indie devs.
And yes, before people state the obvious, I am jaded and biased and an idiot, etc. No one likes the games I like, which screws me, so screw you guys. Action, reaction. I can’t like or appreciate crap. But at least I try it. |
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Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:40 pm |
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KasperFauerby
Village Dweller
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 18
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he heh.. so what games qualify as true RPGs in your mind Roqua1? I would be interested in seeing your top 10 (or just a top 5)..
- Kasper |
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Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:02 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
A real rpg is one that allows you to play a role, or makes more than a passing attempt at doing a lot to allow you to seem like you are playing a role. This excludes any game where my personal physical abilities have an impact on game play. In Oblivion and Gothic I might have maxed my character’s sword skill to master, but unless I, myself, personally, have good timing and physical dexterity, my charceter is not a master of anything. He mastered what he/she can until I master the controls and my physical shortcomings. So I cannot seriously be a master swordman and not be a master wsordsman at the same time now can I?” And I can’t play a role and be a role at the same time either. So you cannot play an action or twitch rpg, as role and playing are in the title of the genre.
On the opposite end of that are games like Betrayal at Krondor. Nothing non-rpgish about the controls, leveling, combat, or any of that stuff. But, my role is predefined, and how that role is played is also predefined. So since I can’t play a role in this case either, it can’t be an rpg (but is still one of my favorite games).
Only rpgs can be rpgs, and if you can’t play a role or be a role you aren’t playing an rpg. Some of my favorite games are not rpgs; like Bloodlines. I really loved Silent Storm (with sentinels), but its not an rpg. Same with JA 2 (has a lot of rpgish stuff but in the end it is firmly in the TBS category). Gothic would be in there if I didn’t have to play the whole game in marvin mode, which makes the stuff I like the most about rpgs not important (character building, combat, etc).
My list, not in order, probably not the same list I would have after thinking about it for a while, and not my top 10 games either: (top 12 I guess)
Blade of Destiny, StarTrail, Shadows over Riva, Darklands, Buck Rogers, Albion, ToEE, Arcanum, Fall Out, Fallout 2, Darksun 1, Wiz 7.
Buck Rogers isn’t that great of an rpg, but I love it as a game. I think it’s clearly the best of all the old SSI games, as the Buck Rogers system had the skills and the great space combat system (to destroy or cripple and board). And the different armor types for different weapons, and all the weapons types had different and distinct uses. All the SSI games were pretty weak rpgs, just because of technology and money (and size) limitations in my opinion.
Ultima 7 didn’t make my list mainly because I can’t stand the combat, same with PS:T.
I already got into what makes an rpg an rpg or not a million times already, so I didn’t put a lot into this argument. I can do better if you really want convincing (not about my top games, just about what is an rpg or not).
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:55 am |
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