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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
quote:
Originally posted by doctor_kaz
Somebody said what the real problem is earlier -- developers jumping ship, leaving little or no incentive to upgrade your machine....
That was me. The only thing holding me back from the 360 as my "next gen" machine is that "Max Shooter" hasnt been developed yet. That's the keyboard/mouse adapter available for the old xBox. I can't play these 1st and 3rd person games with the damn controller. Once they make it I'm going 360 and my PC will be for indy RPG's and NWN2 stuff.
PCI-e and Vista are the nails in the coffin. DX10 requires Vista and we all know AGP is dead. Its expense after expense. And for what? All AAA DX10 games with be on the 360 so what exactly is the point?
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"For Innos!" |
Fri May 19, 2006 3:44 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by doctor_kaz
It's discussions like these that drive home to me how utterly clueless Microsoft is when it comes to diagnosing the problems with the PC as a platform. Their solution is to bring X-Box live to the PC so that I can play first person shooters with X-Box owners. Yayyyy!!!
I think you might have confused two separate things here.
1) Microsoft issued a press release shortly before E3 in which they announced that they wanted to revitalize PC gaming via Windows Vista and DirectX 10. Another press release that came out when E3 launched, included a list of games that would be "optimized" for Vista. The whole 'we will revitalize PC gaming' stuff was just waving the Vista banner all over the place. Nothing else to it.
2) Secondly, they also issued another press release at E3 in which they announced their plans for a cross platform online service. Users are supposed to connect to this service from their mobile phones, handheld devices, gaming consoles (Xbox, Xbox 360) and the PC.
It's probably true that Xbox Live is going to be merged with this service but so is Microsoft's Zone (their once very popular but now pretty much abandoned PC gaming platform).
The cross platform online service has nothing to do with the plans to revitalize PC gaming. It's a totally separate thing.
I read about the presentation of the online service somewhere and what Microsoft showed was someone using his cell phone to edit the stats of a racing car (I don't remember the racing game's name), he then uploaded that data (the modded car) to the online service, grabbed the edited car from his home PC to do some further modding and then finally played the game online on the X360 vs some buddies.
BTW, Sony has (surprise, surprise) strikingly similar plans. They are also working on a service called "LaunchPad" that will interconnect PSP, PS, PS2, PS3, and PC users.
SOE's Station Access (the service that lets you play EQ, EQ2, SWG, MxO et al at one "low" subscription price) is going to become a part of that "LaunchPad" service which has led some people to the rather premature conclusion that 'OMG!!111 tehy r bringin ev4rqest to teh ps3!!!11'. They're not. They're just merging and integrating their current online activities into this new cross platform online service. |
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Fri May 19, 2006 3:48 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
That was my understanding too. But the question is still valid:
Why upgrade the PC anymore? Vista? Vid cards? Its endless. Did you read about the MMO port to the xBox360 that took only 5 weeks? I think it was Warhammer Online if I recall. There are no 360 plans for the game but MS had asked the devs to try the 360 development kit as a test and they ported the whole thing in 5 weeks. The E3 demo wasnt on the PC, it was the 360. That's pretty compelling for any dev shop to consider. Tapping potentially a 3x market on any PC title.
Also, LoTR: BFME2 is going to the 360. Finally an RTS. Another "hurdle" consoles need to get over to attract the PC crowd. MS is being incredibly stupid about the keyboard and mouse issue. Frankly I don't get it.
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"For Innos!" |
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Fri May 19, 2006 4:13 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
That was my understanding too. But the question is still valid:
Why upgrade the PC anymore? Vista? Vid cards? Its endless.
True. MS is basically introducing a whole new platform with Vista and DirectX 10. That's definitely not helping the PC. The current DirectX 9.x platform is struggling as it is. Adding another (niche) platform is not going to be helpful unless a miracle happens and Vista becomes a top seller overnight because of the 'killer appz' Halo 2 and Flight Simulator X  .
Then (theoretically speaking) MS would have managed to replace one platform with the other but it does indeed look more like the transition to Vista will be very slow and gradual which is not a good thing because I don't think that developers and especially publishers will bother about creating games for two different types of PCs (especially not PC exclusive games).
Does that mean that they will abandon the PC? No. Where there's money to be made, there'll be someone to make that money but we will probably be getting even more half-assed console ports to either DirectX 9.x or 10.x or both.
So, yes, I guess that you can't go wrong with buying an X360. Might as well play the real thing instead of the crappy PC port. Sad but true.
quote:
Did you read about the MMO port to the xBox360 that took only 5 weeks? I think it was Warhammer Online if I recall. There are no 360 plans for the game but MS had asked the devs to try the 360 development kit as a test and they ported the whole thing in 5 weeks. The E3 demo wasnt on the PC, it was the 360. That's pretty compelling for any dev shop to consider. Tapping potentially a 3x market on any PC title.
Yes, that does sound very impressive but I somehow can't believe that this is the whole story. My knowledge of programming is very limited but I could imagine that Mythic started out with cross platform development in mind. Maybe they even used that Microsoft x-platform technology (XNA) from the very beginning. Who knows?
Let's not forget that the whole purpose of E3 is to be one big advertisement show. If someone at E3 says 'Look, you can port your MMORPG to X360 in just 5 weeks!' then to me that's the same as when they say on one of those TV shopping channels how you can lose 200 pounds in five days  . |
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Fri May 19, 2006 5:04 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
I emailed maxshooter asking if they were working on a 360 keyboard/mouse adapter and they gave me a cryptic broken english response that basically meant "soon".
As far as I can see - MS is basically positioning themselves into the living room and killing PC gaming for the main stream. MS knows Vista gaming will be for higher end enthusiasts only. It makes good business sense really. They don't really lose anything by killing PC gaming on the mainstream. Clearly the Home Theater and console gaming market is worth trading PC gaming for. With the upcoming HD DVD 360 extension they are going to kill Sony and that very "Betamax" Blue Ray initiative.
Plus, everyone eventually will be forced to Vista. Business sectors will buy it and Dell/Gateway will start shipping it. You know the drill.
MS is very smart. The only thing I don't get is the keyboard/mouse thing. They should be catering to it. All the hardcore FPS folks would be chomping at the bit to play Gears of War with a keyboard + mouse. You would hear a big sucking sound away from Quake Wars.
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"For Innos!" |
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Fri May 19, 2006 5:18 pm |
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doctor_kaz
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 108
Location: West Virginia, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
I emailed maxshooter asking if they were working on a 360 keyboard/mouse adapter and they gave me a cryptic broken english response that basically meant "soon".
As far as I can see - MS is basically positioning themselves into the living room and killing PC gaming for the main stream. MS knows Vista gaming will be for higher end enthusiasts only. It makes good business sense really. They don't really lose anything by killing PC gaming on the mainstream.
How is this good business sense? People upgrade computers and buy new computers largely for games. When they do this, they often buy an operating system. I have bought 4 OS's in the past 6 years. Microsoft makes a huge gross profit when they sell you an OS, but they make a huge loss when they sell you an X-Box 360. Have you ever seen the financials for the X-Box? The thing has lost astronomical amounts of money, and that shows absolutely no sign at all of changing. Trading incredibly profitable software for money-losing hardware is a dumb idea. They only thing that may save them is that they appear to have lucked out because Sony committed a huge strategic blunder with the PS3 -- i.e. they jacked up the price to $600 to push Blu-Ray technology.
Last edited by doctor_kaz on Fri May 19, 2006 7:40 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Fri May 19, 2006 7:24 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
As far as I can see - MS is basically positioning themselves into the living room and killing PC gaming for the main stream. MS knows Vista gaming will be for higher end enthusiasts only. It makes good business sense really.
Yep, that pretty much nails it  . Though MS alone is certainly not powerful enough to "kill" PC mainstream gaming (unless they pull the plug on DirectX entirely, of course, which would probably still not *totally* kill PC gaming (remember, there was a time before DirectX *g*) but hurt very, very, very badly)). I hope that -aside from all the crappy ports- we will still be getting the occasional PC exclusive gem.
You're right though that in MS' ideal world, people would be playing games on their X360 exclusively and do office-related tasks, imaging, video editing, whatever else, ... on the PC. Luckily, MS can not totally control what we do at our homes and so there will always be 3rd parties delivering PC games as long as there is a demand for PC gaming.
Actually, I think we'll just go through different cycles in the end (one cycle lasting several years). Currently we're in a phase where everything and everyone is drifting away from the PC but it should just be a matter of time until a PC smash hit (something like Diablo) will turn the tide and then everyone in dev land is going to slap their foreheads and they're going to "redi$cover" the PC as a great platform for games. |
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Fri May 19, 2006 7:31 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
quote:
Originally posted by Moriendor
Actually, I think we'll just go through different cycles in the end (one cycle lasting several years). Currently we're in a phase where everything and everyone is drifting away from the PC but it should just be a matter of time until a PC smash hit (something like Diablo) will turn the tide and then everyone in dev land is going to slap their foreheads and they're going to "redi$cover" the PC as a great platform for games.
On the other hand maybe it should die as a gaming platform. Personally, I'd be happier with a console that the xBox360 almost is. First off, the fixed graphics card puts constraints on the developers. That's a good thing. It should be gameplay first and I'm tired of constantly upgrading for HDR or shaders or whatever. I do however, need a keyboard and mouse. I'm happy with xBox Live to download demos but I don't want to pay. I like the portability aspect and the prospect of both gaming and HD DVD. I can play games on my computer peripherals using VGA or my home theater.
Lots of pluses. Lots of negatives too though. In the end, I'm really sick of chasing system requirements and Vista/PCI-e pretty much spells the end for me. I bought an x850XT less than 3 months ago and it barely plays Oblivion. Enough is enough.
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"For Innos!" |
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Fri May 19, 2006 7:54 pm |
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J.E. Sawyer
Village Dweller
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 1
Location: Solana Beach, CA |
When I was at KRI in Moscow last year, I told a lot of people that Europe (eastern Europe/western Russia in particular) would be the last stronghold of traditional PC RPGs. Like other publishers and developers, our European counterparts respond to their markets. Eastern Europe/Russia has low console penetration and average system specs tend to be much lower than American counterparts.
quote:
Originally posted by doctor_kaz
World of Warcraft and Japanese RPG's like Final Fantasy are incredibly popular, and they are almost totally stat-dependent. Kotor was very popular and Bioware's old D&D games were huge hits. Jade Empire was in the bargain bin shortly after its release and was a slight commercial disappointment.
I don't see what the basis for this prediction is. There are no sales numbers that support the conclusion that the masses embrace actiony RPG's more than stats-driven RPG's. Action games have learning curves of their own. These learning curves are no less intimidating to casual gamers than stats or strategy learning curves. Maybe even moreso, since there's a huge portion of the population that suck and twitch gaming and don't want to play an action game.
World of Warcraft is pretty stat dependent, but it also requires much faster reflexes than any of the old IE games. Guild Wars is quite similar. KotOR was very popular, but was that because of its type of combat or because of the story, companions, and license behind it? The reasons for Jade Empire's failure to sell well aren't clear. It could be blamed on the combat, but its combat seemed to really excite gamers and press folks online. It could also be blamed on its new IP status, or the Asian fantasy theme itself. Considering how well the game reviewed among gamers and press, I don't think people heard that the combat sucked. I personally think a lot of people just weren't into the Asian fantasy concept.
As for the basis of my prediction, I stated it a lot in the interview: Oblivion. The learning curve for the action in Oblivion is pretty shallow. There's no comparison between the learning curve required for D&D and the learning curve for Oblivion. It's not even close. Considering that most of the publishers to whom I have spoken are eager for "lite" RPGs, I can't imagine that Oblivion's commercial and critical success are going to influence them less than the anger and frustration felt by hardcore tradtional RPG fans. |
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Fri May 19, 2006 10:43 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
You are right on all counts. I believe Jade Empire's mixed results were due to the Asian fantasy factor. Frankly I'm surprised Bioware chose the subject matter.
On your other point: From a financial standpoint why should publishers take risks for a small market of hardcore RPG'ers? That population size is staying the same while "RPG Lite" is penetrating into the casual gamer market. Oblivion's success makes that pretty clear. So there is no turning back - for AAA title development at least.
I thought your points were dead on - its just that nobody here wants to face the grim reality.
The real question in my mind is this: If LoTR: BFME2 is a success on the 360, what is stopping Bioware from making Dragon Age a 360 title? I can't see a reason. How about some inside info eh? Just kidding.
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"For Innos!" |
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Fri May 19, 2006 11:20 pm |
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Kalia
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 30
Location: Arizona |
Thank you, Sawyer-guy, for coming over at my request. It's a pleasure to have your personal comments added to the discussion. These guys will put you through your paces so...gird yourself!
Welcome! |
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Sat May 20, 2006 12:51 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
I've always held the opinion that Jade Empire "failed" because no individual element was strong enough to carry the game, it streamlined popular RPG gameplay devices too far and the whole didn't end up bigger than the sum of the parts, as some games do.
The combat didn't quite get it right, it was short, the setting might lose some players, the different paths were little more than standard good/evil despite the hype and people actually like some inventory management. Granted, casual players like it simple and direct but most players who would be interested in an RPG like collecting stuff.
Oblivion heralds an era of fantasy-action-simulators with some RPG elements, but not "real" RPGs.
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Sat May 20, 2006 1:25 am |
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roqua1
Guest
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I say good riddance. God bless Oblivion. I can’t wait till the PC market is so dry that the McCarthy’s, the VD’s, etc, just exploit the hell out of it. I can’t wait for the day when all the console fans finally get off the pc. Then I won’t have to read any retarded reviews by retards on how stupid H&S was. Because those invalids will all be playing console games like they were meant to in the first place. |
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Sat May 20, 2006 4:16 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
I think a further consideration re Jade Empire, is that it WAS a console only title!! I don't own a console and never will. Polls here indicate that most RPG followers are PC first. Therefore, there was no established fanbase for the game and traditional RPG 'ers wouldn't touch it as it was a console game. I think they hoped to capture the FF market perhaps and missed!!!!
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If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Sat May 20, 2006 5:10 am |
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