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| Should the UN do anything about North Korea? |
| Yes. N. Korea should be disarmed. |
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40% |
[ 4 ] |
| No. The US and UN are meddling where they have no business. |
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10% |
[ 1 ] |
| No. Let China & South Korea deal with them. |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Yes, but try diplomacy first. |
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50% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 10 |
Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
| What should be done about North Korea? |
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While G. W. Bush has previouly lumped Iraq and North Korea as "an axis of evil", rogue nations, and other unsavory categories, everyone here has been arguing over whether the US should intervene in Iraq. No one here has discussed the North Korea situation. In my mind, the 2 situations are very different and should be handled differently.
What do people here think should be done about North Korea?
[And please let's try to keep this civilized and calm. The current Iraq thread, and the 2 previous ones, got very heated at times.]
_________________
The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows, The Nonflamers' Guild, and The Alliance of Middle Earth= |
Sat Feb 01, 2003 4:53 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
I haven't formed a firm opinion on this, yet. I'd be interested to hear your opinion, Bilbo. |
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Sat Feb 01, 2003 5:18 am |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
I haven't formed a firm opinion on this, yet. I'd be interested to hear your opinion, Bilbo.
I will give it in due time. I don't feel the need to dominate this discussion (or any other) and accordingly would like to give some other people a chance to get their opinions in first.
_________________
The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows, The Nonflamers' Guild, and The Alliance of Middle Earth= |
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Sat Feb 01, 2003 5:22 am |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Well first of all, what should be done with North Korea, is that it should be pointed to as the result of a treaty with a dictator, what happens when you actually trust a communist dictator. Thanks alot Jimmy Carter, you really deserve the Nobel Peace Prize for helping to give us our first rogue communist state with nukes and nothing to lose! Lots of good negotiating there, the exact thing were supposed to do with Hussein now, great idea.
In my opinion, we shouldnt do anything. I say we let France and Germany worry about it, North Korea is closer to them than it is to us, let them "negotiate" with them. It's funny how all these "anti-Iraq conflict" nations have all kinds of things to say about what we should do in regards to Iraq pre-nuke, but when a nation finally crosses the line and becomes a genuine nuclear threat, its all our responsibility. No talk of coalitions or going to the UN now, the UN has nothing to say about North Korea. WE are just supposed to deal with it now. This to me, just shows how the actual objection to Iraq war is not anything but an attempt to discredit the United States and deny Bush any type of military success in office. Mainly because it would cement the Republican party in the Presidency for decades to come, and would be as crushingly decisive and victorious as the Gulf War. Thats the last thing the socialists and dictators of this world want, someone in office who means what he says and doesnt fall at their feet and blindly obey. Even at the risk of their own peril. I say hand North Korea to the UN and the EU, and we'll deal with Iraq the right way.
EDIT- by the way, anyone hear about LIBYA being elected chair of UN HUMAN RIGHTs commission? Hilarious! I wonder what the people of Lockerbie think about that ='.'=
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain
Last edited by xSamhainx on Sat Feb 01, 2003 6:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sat Feb 01, 2003 5:53 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
...and deny Bush any type of military success in office...
As I said, I haven't formed an opinon on North Korea. This statement troubles me, though. It sounds like military success is a goal in itself. This is one of the fears some people have - that action in Iraq is more about domestic politics than any real threat to security. I'm not saying this is the case - but this statement sounds like that.
I couldn't say that some leaders don't want a republican in office - I simply wouldn't know. I can assure you, however, that when ~70% of Australians don't support a war with Iraq it has nothing to do with the party politics of the president. I have to concentrate to remember which party is which. |
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Sat Feb 01, 2003 6:22 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
| Re: What should be done about North Korea? |
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quote:
Originally posted by Bilbo
While G. W. Bush has previouly lumped Iraq and North Korea as "an axis of evil", rogue nations, and other unsavory categories, everyone here has been arguing over whether the US should intervene in Iraq. No one here has discussed the North Korea situation. In my mind, the 2 situations are very different and should be handled differently.
Since in other thread you pro war against Iraq, i am curious why you said NK should be deal differently.
@xSamhainx
Some political observers said that US care about democracy and freedom, but that's only hypocritical of US. So if you believe what you said ("let France and Germany worry about it, North Korea is closer to them than it is to us"), then it show that US only take care or save his own skin, not about democracy and freedom, in short US is hypocritical afther all.
quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
...and deny Bush any type of military success in office...
I agree with Dhruin. Plus it show that US military success, or whether war against NK and Iraq have something to do with internal politics, to maintain Bush own presidential seat or his party domination. I won't say it solely for that purpose, but it's a nice convinient or opportunity. The chance is there, why not take it. Good political tactics anyway.  |
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Sat Feb 01, 2003 6:43 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Frankly, there isn't much that can be done now that they have nuclear weapons. I hate the fact that they can now blackmail the world with them.
Only intervene if they attack our allies in the region.
@Remus: We do like to promote freedom and democracy. However, if we were to press the issue there, what's to keep them from pushing some buttons and unleashing hell on earth?
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Sat Feb 01, 2003 6:54 am |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Remus, of course NK must be dealt with differently because they have nuclear weapons, its that simple. They now have a bargaining chip that Iraq does not posess.. yet. They can threaten to nuke South Korea or Japan, or anyone else over there. This is the type of leverage we do not want Hussien to have. Im serious about letting the EU handle it, if these people are not going to support effort to keep a tyrant from having nukes, then let them handle the end result of their foolishness.
As far as your political suspicions of Bush, I dont know what the heck anyone can say to change your mind. I just dont remember any objection whatsoever to any military action in the Clinton years, no matter where he sent troops or missles.Werent talking about resolutions and coalitions back then, none of that mattered. No talk about political motives then.More SCUD missles were launched into Iraq during the Clinton presidency than were in the Gulf War, I dont recall anyone throwing a fit about that. Everyone was loaded for bear back in '98, Saddam was on their lists.I just cant help but notice the political leanings of the opposition (France, Germany) and our Presidents, present and former, and how that factor alone seems to be the only diffrence that I see. Sometimes the simplest explanation very well may be the answer. Bush is clearly hated, for whatever reason, and I think that is an unmistakeable factor.
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain
Last edited by xSamhainx on Sat Feb 01, 2003 7:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sat Feb 01, 2003 6:56 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
@Remus: We do like to promote freedom and democracy. However, if we were to press the issue there, what's to keep them from pushing some buttons and unleashing hell on earth?
Yeah, just push the button already, i want to see some nice fireworks... 
Anyway, there news of "US warns N.Korea about site activity, considers forces." Here's the link http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/SP14450 |
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Sat Feb 01, 2003 6:59 am |
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TheCleric
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 230
Location: Upstate NY, USA |
The two situations definately need to be handled VERY differently!
Personally, I don't think that we should be pushing as hard for war with Iraq. It's made the U.S. look like war mongers to the rest of the world and we'll continue to look that way until the inspectors come up with something significant against Saddam.
I feel that we have to do something about N. Korea. The atrocities they are commiting against fellow human beings in their "Camps" there rival or surpass what the Nazi's did to the Jews and have to be stopped. (Before anyone asks; No, I'm not Jewish).
Additionally, from what I've heard so far, our government has known about this situation for quite some time, but has not acted. If so, we must bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs.
I'd say that we need to start out with political pressure and only use force as a last, last, last resort. And even then, only if we can get some of our people into the N. Korean facilities ahead of time, under cover, to sabotage things and try to eliminate the threat if we do have to resort to force.
We must all remember that there is no such thing as an "acceptable" Nuclear confrontation. We can't count on technology to save us or reverse the harmful effects of radiation. |
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Sat Feb 01, 2003 8:30 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
We are putting political pressure on them. However, I doubt it's going to work now that they have them.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Sat Feb 01, 2003 8:34 am |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Yep, we'll just send Chuck Norris and Steven Segal to infiltrate Kim Jong Il's nuclear silo and save the world. The key is to stop it before it gets to this point! You simply cannot go waltzing into a nuclear power's country. Once they have it, they can literally blackmail anyone they want.YOu know what we can do with NK? We can basically GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT NOW. Theres your solution. NK can basically wipe out one of its neighbors, Iraq can do that as well as hold a good deal of the worlds energy supplies hostage. Do you drive a car? Do you like having electricty? Do you think he would draw the line at making his own "Death Camps" for all the people he doesnt like in his part of the world? Do you think he would hesitate to hand out suitcase nukes to people who want to do us harm? Think he would stop before he got Intercontinental capabilities? This is elementary, Im completely dumbfounded that people cannot realize these simple facts.North Korea is a preview of a 10 times worse scenario in Iraq.
This again, is my last post on this subject, Im fixin to blow a gasket here you people are simply unrealistic and you keep moving the goalpost farther and farther. You simply will not be satisfied until all hell breaks loose, and I hope and pray that our leaders hold steadfast in their commitment to take care of business before its too late.
The inspectors, who are searching for a needle in a haystack the size of California over there have turned up, in my opinion "Proof". Resolution 1441 means nothing
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/01/19/wirq19.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/01/19/ixnewstop.html/news/2003/01/19/wirq19.xml
There, happy? Nope, lets move the goalpost farther, they actually must have a picture of Saddam standing next to one, or a mushroom cloud over Britain. You dont wait til a poisonous snake bites you to kill it.
2nd paragraph in that article starts with-
"Acting on information provided by Western intelligence.." Thats right, guess who? THE CIA. The hapless inspectors are being guided by what we already know, they arent going to find anything new! They are walking in the front door while stuff is being taken out the back door, figuratively speaking. North Korea should be a lesson, and not in futility
Im outta here have a nice dead-end discussion-
*mutters something in Tigernese and pounces out window*
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Sat Feb 01, 2003 9:10 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
We are putting political pressure on them. However, I doubt it's going to work now that they have them.
Not gonna work? political pressure, that's it? then nuke them, or pre-emptive strike, so at least we can see some result from that - whether make the situation worst or better.
quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
North Korea is a preview of a 10 times worse scenario in Iraq.
Then why US (the protector of freedom and democracy) so excited about Iraq instead of NK? No worth the trouble?, no oil/gas or any political gains (or internal political gains) could get from war with NK?, possible more high casualty, NK is crazier than Iraq so US back down?
quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
Im outta here have a nice dead-end discussion-
*mutters something in Tigernese and pounces out window*
"Hey, wait for me, I'm outta here too"
*mutters something in Lionnese and pounces out window* 
Last edited by Remus on Sat Feb 01, 2003 10:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sat Feb 01, 2003 10:04 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
One does not simply "nuke" a place. And how can we do a pre-emptive strike to prevent them from getting them when they already have them. We'd have to build a time machine to do a pre-emptive strike. 
The difference is NK now has a very powerful bargining chip. I doubt anyone in that region wants to be nuked, so they make consessions to NK and the human rights violations go on without the world being able to stop them due to the threat of nuclear war, which sane people do not want.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Sat Feb 01, 2003 10:11 am |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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I hate to be picky, but this is a case of Extortion, not blackmail.
How come the this thread is what should the US do? This is no more the US’s problem than it is China’s, the UK’s, France’s, and Russia’s. This is the UN’s responsibility. If all five member's of the UN Permanent Security Council vote for military action against N Korea then we will pledge our men and our forces to it. But short of that this is the UN’s problem and no single country should be handling/spearheading this alone.
> What makes N Korea so different from Iraq?
N Korea has the fourth strongest military in the entire world. Saddam can be taken out with a minimum of (sum total*) casualties, Kim Jong-il cannot. If anyone moves militarily against N Korea it has to the UN as a whole acting, not any one country.
> So what should the US do about N Korea?
What I believe the US should do and will do is the same thing. We should give them an ultimatum about moving against S Korea, and simply help the UN in whatever negotiations/treaties they see fit. We should tell Kim Jong-il that if he moves militarily against S Korea that the USA will immediately take full military action against him. But as long as he stays in his own country this is a matter for UN negotiators.
>Isn’t situations like the current one with Kim Jong-il the very reason why the UN was started?
If the UN looks to the US to solve this problem for them then I will favor the disbanding of the UN so that the world can start working on a new international organization that may actually manage to do some good in the world.
*Sum total meaning the total of both sides, civilian and military.
I believe that this poll should be changed, it should be ‘Should the UN do anything about North Korea?’ Or it at least needs to have one option of letting the UN take on this burden. And if changed the poll should probably be deleted first so that people may vote again with the new option (s). |
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Sat Feb 01, 2003 8:18 pm |
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