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Altre
eep
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 22
Location: Portland, Oregon USA |
| Mmorpg problems and issues |
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Ths thread is here for anyone to reply to. What I'd like is if all the various problems and issues you have with Mmorpgs could be listed here. I don't mean bugs. Think in terms of Gameplay, Development, Ambiance, Social, Economic, and other issues you experience while playing a game. Feel free to write as little or as much as you want. I will be reading each of your posts in this thread.
Thanks
_________________
-Editor: Mmorpgdot-
I'm broke due to the fact that I spend all my cash on pens and paper. It's not funny. I need food, and that whole 'place to live' thing is way beyond me. |
Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:40 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
okey, im helpful 
Content -- there needs to be lots of content AT LAUNCH, not 2 years later
Bugs -- fix the damn bugs before they release a game that we pay for
Timespan -- i shouldnt have to devote all my time to they game to get anywhere; it shouldnt take as long as DAOC or EQ to get to the fun levels
PvP -- i want to see a more of this. most of it is as of yet unexplored potential
and my biggest gripes are:
Living Worlds -- i want the worlds to be more simulation, not an illusion.
Freedom -- most of all, i want freedom to create my character how i want, and to do the things that i want to do without being limited to an archetype |
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Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:51 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
oh and a lot of work needs to be done with artificial intelligence before you can have the world simulation work, btw. Today's A.I. is NON-EXISTENT. |
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Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:54 pm |
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Kaniver
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 04 Dec 2003
Posts: 47
Location: Western Oregon |
Seems like a whole host of companies are jumping into the MMORPG fray with half hearted visions of gameplay and grand illusions of enriching themselves. Many of the concepts are regurgitated themes that have been done before.
I agree with Ammon777 that the finished product should be polished and bug free before release. It should have enough content to entertain the powerleveler's who will undoubtedly reach levels never exspected by developers, in record making time. There will always be gaps between those who spend unhealthy amounts of time power leveling and the more casual player. Thats a given. Nonetheless the fun factor should be of high caliber for the casul player and not skewed toward the never satisfied powerleveler. I saw this take place in AC1 as more and more content was added to keep pace with macroing powerleveler's at the exspense of the hard working average gamer. This catering to a select group of players really unbalanced the game from which it never truely recovered.
Graphics does not make a game, AC2 proved this beyond a doubt.
The next development areas needing great improvement to make a real NEXT GENERATION MMORPG is in combat and immersiveness. Combat needs to be more than pushing a few buttons or clicking on a couple of hot-bar tabs. It should require your undevided attention just as combat in real life would require. After the dispatching of a mob it would be nice to see more interaction than just clicking on mob to collect your loot. Example: after killing the groglok you sheath your sword and unequip you shield, you draw your skinning knife and skin the groglok and receive a fine groglok pelt. These were the sort of activities that made the text based games immersive. You then search the groglok to find a bent dupple sword and 3 gold prunars. These same ideas can be developed in crafting, and interactions with other aspects of the fantasy world.
There are so many upcoming titles it's mindboggling and hard to seperate the chaf from the wheat.
The recent reports and previews of WOW certainly make it ride to the top of my radar screen. I have high hopes for Blizzards vision.
Another that looks promising and in concept is one of the most interesting is D&L. For those of you who haven't heard of it check it out, there screenshots are mesmerizing. There in limited beta now.
My guess is that a really well done product will be released within the next twelve months that will be worthy of the title NEXT GENERATION. I can't wait to see what one it is! |
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Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:22 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
A lot of us hope its gonna be Darkfall. We'll see though... |
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Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:25 pm |
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Kiff
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Indiana |
Ambiant sounds. I walk through a packed dungeon with 30-40 other people and we are all typing something(talking) but what do I hear? <cricket...cricket...tumbleweed)
A.I. I've seen some great A.I. in the DAoC expansion Shrouded Isles, they wiped out my 5 person group and they only had three. Maybe my group was just really stupid (we kinda were) but more and better A.I.
Collision detection. I hate being able to walk through people and monsters. UO made it so you could walk through a person but it took half your endourance and came up saying "You pushed Joe out of the way" And after you walked through one person, maybe two, you couldn't do it again.
Quests. I do them, sometimes. The story is compelling and after I complete the quest or accept the quest the NPC just stands there. Comon!! I just saved your entire race from the hidious Tree solths. Give me a high five or something. |
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Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:42 pm |
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Kaniver
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 04 Dec 2003
Posts: 47
Location: Western Oregon |
Yes indeed Darkfall is certainly worthy of attention. It sounds like it will have depth...........I truely dislike dumbed down games. I will certainly be tracking the progress of this one. |
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Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:36 pm |
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Altre
eep
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 22
Location: Portland, Oregon USA |
I've noticed how the hype surrounding "new" systems of gameplay is made larger than it deserves. A good example is skill based systems that are supposably replacing leveling. In my opinion, this is a complete misuse of terms. The "skill" based system is in fact a very refined version of the level system. Rather funny when you think about it.
We have yet to see a signifigant departure from the tried and true methods. Advance so far is incrimental, and not revolutionary.
As Ammon777 pointed out, bugs at launch and lack of content are getting out of hand. I believe that the industry has already accepted these things as <i>standard</i> practice. It's simply accepted that a launch will be buggy.
As Kaniver wrote, we're still in the 'me too!' phase of Mmorpgs. It's a basic human phemonenon. Something new comes along, it becomes popular (and profitable). Suddenly you have everyone and their mother's gerbil trying to get a piece.
Going further out, Mmorpgs will face a problem that the video game industry is facing now. The titles become so expensive to produce that only large companies can compete. Of course, it's simply a fact that large companies are not known for being innovative or revolutionary. Rather, they concentrate on reliable, slow, advances that run mostly off 'guarantee sales' potenential. The more risk involved in a game concept, the less a major company is interested.
thoughts?
_________________
-Editor: Mmorpgdot-
I'm broke due to the fact that I spend all my cash on pens and paper. It's not funny. I need food, and that whole 'place to live' thing is way beyond me. |
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Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:15 pm |
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Kaniver
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 04 Dec 2003
Posts: 47
Location: Western Oregon |
The " guranteed sales potential " seems to have run askew though. Surely Turbine thought AC2 had great potential. Outstanding graphics, modest sucess of AC1, player base excited to see somthing even better. What happened?
For one they took the rich skillset of AC1 and dumbed it down hoping to attract a larger playerbase. They disregarded the feedback from the beta testers that this isn't going to be well received. When a project is advanced to the point of beta it's hard to make major changes in the system you already have developed. I suspect Microsoft put pressure on the project to get it released. Voila......AC2.........a tremendous disappointment.
The simplifying of skillsets and player options is meant to attract a larger playerbase. Could it be that the player looking for a simplified experience isn't going to stick around very long anyways? Is this development model also going to alienate the harcore MMORPG enthusiast?
Could be that the real long term subscribers are looking for complexity that will entertain them for 2,3 or more years? Isn't that what the developers strive for, long term playerbase?
Thats what I'm waiting for, a game with decent graphics, stellar combat, complex skillset. Somthing where death has consequences and affects your strategy towards risk. Where character development is divesified and controlled by the player to a great extent. Where many other pursuits in addition to combat can be immersive and enjoyable.
With some of the higher profile projects having limited sucess maybe it is time for a little risk taking? 2003 has been a dismal year for MMORPG's. The sims online...........come on 
Maybe I am just expecting too much? |
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Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:49 pm |
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Altre
eep
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 22
Location: Portland, Oregon USA |
Generally, the "guaranteed sales potential" is just a theory based on what has worked before. A game like GTA sells mega big, so developers will quickly clone what elements their focus groups say made the game popular.
Most Mmorpg's try to appeal to the broadest possible audience. This ends up making all the various groups somewhat dissatisfied. Companies have still to learn that you cannot make a Mmorpg that truly appeals to everyone. If you want casual players, you build a game for casual players. If you want hardcore gamers, you build for hardcore gamers.
As it is you currently have games that are far too hard, tedious, and time consuming for casual players, and are too easy, uncomplex, and quick for the hardcore audience.
_________________
-Editor: Mmorpgdot-
I'm broke due to the fact that I spend all my cash on pens and paper. It's not funny. I need food, and that whole 'place to live' thing is way beyond me. |
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Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:24 am |
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Bartacus
Il Buono
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 4706
Location: Belgium Flemmish part |
I'm not really interested in MMORPG, but I have a bit of news to share.
Mythica (MS new MMORPG) is cancelled due to to many MMORPG's arriving at the same time. (WoW, Everquest II, ...)
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Moderator and Council Magician of the RPGDot Shadows
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NFG member |
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Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:04 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
One of the biggest problems I have with current (and planned) MMORPGS is that the developers totally (or virtually so) ignore the RP aspect. They do not add any of the essential features into the games that promote or even allow roleplay to occur. Roleplay (at least for those who truly care about roleplay) is far more than simply having a character named "Thistlepuff" that is drawn to look like an elf. The game must have mechanisms in place to roleplay a wide variety of real life simulated actions (drinking a beer in a pub for example, sitting in a chair, lying on a bed, picking flowers to give to a loved one). If the developers refuse to put these functions into the games, then nobody will ever truly be able to roleplay.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:44 am |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
The only really DIFFERENT mmo in development so far is Trials of Ascension. they are catering to a small subset of players, but still, the game is damn innovative. You have to think outside the box when reading about that one. Waaaaay outside the box, mind you. Most things in Trials of Ascension havent even been ATTEMPTED before because other developers are just too scared to try them. You have to hand it to them, Trials of Ascension, coming out in ~2006, will be one of the few most innovative MMO games ever. In fact, its one of my favs, by far. The only other game i am equally interested in is Darkfall Online. ToA and Darkfall have a LOT in common, but ToA takes it to a whole new level. Here is to hope and success for both teams! |
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Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:55 am |
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Darke
Village Dweller
Joined: 04 May 2002
Posts: 8
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I think what MMOGS are in desperate need of is a dynamic gaming world. I dont mean in the form of changing content and storyline, but the gaming world responding to what the player do in it/to it.
Theres nothing more disheartening than to kill X amount of Y monsters in one spot for say 10 minutes straight only to watch X monster reappear again. Its like playing a super advanced form of Space Invaders.
I think players should feel the consequneces of their playing the gaming world, be it monsters/animals disappearing, new ones filling in the gap, or intelligent mobs responding in the forms of invastions, wars, what have you. I remember when UO first came out and one of the articles talked about the effect of hunting too many deer may bring the dragon into town who fed off of them, looking for new food. of course it never happened but if would have been great to see it.
I think developers also rely to much on the code for providing gameplay. Live events are frowned upon for lag generators often because of annoucements that bring everyone running. Why not do live events randomly and unannounced? Why not alter MOB routines on the fly? Have towns under assault or destroyed or have a uber monster rampage from one end of the gaming world to the other. Create a new profession" virtual actors' whose job is to go into the gaming world and spice things up for the players and provide that dynamism.
I think most MMOGs are too static and what they need is change-change based on what the players do-sometimes minor and sometimes far reaching. If code cant do it, then let real people do it.
D
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Te Memento Esse Mortalum
Remember you are mortal. |
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Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:49 pm |
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Vanquish13
Village Dweller
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 3
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I agree with most of what has been said above. MMOs...including WoW and EQ2 are sorely lacking.
a) there needs to be a full-scale civilization sim running
this means that a whole compliment of NPCs each have a daily schedule and goals that they each try to achieve - both in part and in groups. Sounds like a tall order but it could be done with todays AI capabilities.
b) we HAVE to progress beyond the 5 or 6 actions that MMOs are based around today
there are 5 or 6 basic MMO actions: kill, collect, trade, combine, destroy, protect. thats IT! Thats really all you do in MMOs right now. Come on people. Think of the interaction in single-player PC games. I mean games like Myst, Nancy Drew, Shattered Mirror and such. If you brought single-player interactivity into a breathing world, it would be amazing.
Im looking at the different UT2K4 game types - invasion and assault, as well as last man standing and others as great ways to make MMOs feel more immersive and stretch gameplay.
I also think that making the environments more interactive...like in Lara Croft or Prince of Persia...you bring more action into the game by adding physicality to it.
c) there must exist deeper character creation
Im not just talking about graphics. I think that ShadowBane had an amazing system of plusses and minuses to stats and skills at creation, all of which could be explained in roleplaying and lent to a more detailed character, while customizing it to your play style
d) the content writing HAS to change
first there needs to be a vast increase in the amount of it - sorry if that hurts profits.
second, the writing needs to be cross-genre - im talking mixing adventure plots with romance plots with horror writing...are you getting the picture?
third, the writing needs to be done in a way that truly creates a hero's journey for the person playing it. Evil or good, there needs to be branching character decisions that have an effect on the gameworld and bring meaning to his story.
e) LIVE actors, LIVE events
In the game Im hoping to make, either paid actors or game vets will not only get to jump into any NPC and talk through them and move them around and act them out, but game operators will have RTS-like controls to command monster groups in real time to attack players and make the world seem real.
There has got to be a power shift where developers either pay for these actors or trust game veterans to play them the right way.
Oh well, guess im giving away some of my secrets that id like to put into a game.
Is there hope for this genre? I surely hope so. |
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Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:46 pm |
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