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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
Barring NPCs that attack me on sight and the main story line, I recall killing only 2 NPCs for my quests.
Ok, after your post I started another character and did several quests. Here is what we have. No main storyline quests used and only assigned quests (not things stumbled upon). I will only list those quests that seemingly required killing.
1. Fighter's Guild Kill Rats - only one option which is to kill the rats.
2. FG Kill Egg Poachers - only one option which is to kill them as they attack immediately upon seeing you. BTW, this is very good game story design - how in the name of common sense did they know you were coming for them?????????? Remember, they weren't killers - just egg poachers.
3. FG Kill Telvanni Agents near Caldora Mine - only one option which is to kill them. You meet the lone agent outside their cave but there is NO option to discuss the matter with him in any way, take a bribe to leave them alone, help them or anything. Once inside, they all attack you outright so you must kill them.
4.FG Bring Dura gra-Bol to justice - only one option which was to kill the npc.
I will stop here as nothing much changes as one progresses. As you can see, I am at a bit of a quandry as to imagine what other options besides killing these presented you.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
Tue Jun 11, 2002 11:31 pm |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
[Below this point, there are about two pages of spoilers]
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Uh, you joined the fighter's guild... in the course of the story, you will learn that it is corrupt and is just performing "hits" for the Commona Tong.  Nice try, though.
_________________
Make good choices.
Last edited by sauron38 on Wed Jun 12, 2002 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 1:21 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
*cough* Spoiler warning. *cough*
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 1:27 am |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
This reminds me of a later Mage's Guild Quest from a brutal person who has ordered unfair assassination (you can set all of them straight). In the quest, you must find the Telvanni spy. You can either point a finger at a random person, the real spy, or go to the brutal agent's superior and report her as the spy. Upon return, she appears to be *gasp* dead *gasp* 
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Make good choices. |
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:04 am |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by sauron38
Uh, you joined the fighter's guild... in the course of the story, you will learn that it is corrupt and is just performing "hits" for the Commona Tong. Nice try, though.
No, actually, I have joined the Fighter's guild, the Thieve's guild, the Morag Tong, and the Mage's guild. With mimimal exceptions, all the quests follow the same pattern as the Fighter's guild quests. I have been trying to have an objective discourse about the quests of the game. However, every time I give actual data and examples various people seem only able to come back as you have with nonsensical verbage. People keep claiming that each quest has MULTIPLE ways of finishing them - my example are to show otherwise. Again, with only a tiny few I found the vast majority are just as the examples I have given. Unless someone else can provide examples where there are truly multiple solutions (by the way, before you bother, killing with a sword and killing with an axe are NOT two different solutions) - I do not stand corrected.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:14 am |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
I'm going to start listing quests that do not fall under that stereotype. Maybe I'll list a couple outcomes, too. [Of course, killing the quest giver is always a legitimate alternative]
-Retrieving the naked man's pants...
-Helping the three barbarians who has been left naked on roads...
-Escorting the BBoS lady to Gnaar Mok
-Stronghold construction (recruit wives, get mines to prosper, fill soul gems [granted, that one is killing monsters])
-Helping the invisible guy in St. Dylan (Olms, maybe?)
-The EB Artifact Mod --- it is very funny. You meet two people outside a tomb, you talk to them, then they mention something about having family honour in that tomb, and they get into a fist fight to see if they should let you help, or not. If you try to interfere, they will try to kill you
-Trebonus' retarded quests
-Asking Dremvanni to join the "senate"
-Again, Dremvanni's book quests
-"Radical Abolitionist"
-Daedric quests (poison a person's food, kill a giant bug with a dinner fork, don't talk to a priestess)
-A Temple quest in which you must cross the entire continent without saying a word to anyone
-Convincing the fellow to stop hiding in the cave "Milk" (either rescue his daughter, or kill him, or kill the entire Redoran council to be named Hortator)
-Fargoth's Ring (clear off, or return the stuff)
-Killing a renegade scamp in a foolish wizard's house
-Finding the pillow invoice for the pillow freak in Balmora
-Ahnassi's sequence
-Help a Khajiit informant out of some legal troubles
-Finding the lost Dunmer mine south of Balmora, for one of five rewards: 1. 1 of 6 Daedric Weapons 2. 2,000 gold 3. Nothing (lyin' councilmen!) 4. Flame Atronoch related death 5. Nothing at all, you will get this if you do not put 2 and 2 together.
-Returning Beluelle's Bowl
-Finding the taxman's body (You can settle for 200 gold, or kill the murderer and get 500)
-The pretend slave that is really a Morag Tong agent who is sent to kill an abolitionist. You may help either the "slave" or the abolitionist.
-Escort the drug mule to Balmora, or to the Mission
-Meeting with the scuzbucket Nels Lendo
-The haunting at Sandrith Mora - three outcomes, each one slightly modifies any reward and disposition/reputation bumps
-Oh, I got one that is ultra-obscure! In Tel Vos, you will find journal entries of some trapped workers, who were mining a dungeon. Only one quest will even hint at sending you down there- what you'll discover is an account of horrors and such leading up to the awakening of a flame atronoch
-I'm sure that you have included the clearing out of all 6th house bases in your summary?
-How about Tel Fyr's ~8 chests that lead to a Daedric Altar?
-The "Monster Lab" under Vivec? Oddly enough, most of the ‘different’ quests have to do with wizards, not the fools at the Mage's Guild.
-All 19 shipwrecks?
-Icarian Flight testing
-Subplot at Jolda: Apothecary in Tel Mora, I'll let you find that one
-Shrines under Vivec
-Searched any grottos?
-Book collecting is also quite fun, a great challenge is finding all of Vivec's Sermons, Poision Song, and "Princess Talara"
-The vampire quest about the kid who wants to become a vampire. You can either kill the kid, or let him knock you out, so that he will think that vampires are very weak.
-Vampire amulet assembling quest- no killing, just searching for a couple mundane items
-Escorting Rollie the guar into the big city
- Stealing Limeware from Ebonheart and either taking it to the real owner for less of a reward, but personal satisfaction, or more of a reward to the Glassworker's Hall
-Placing the Ash statue into a competitor's house for a Redoran Trader... once placed, it summons a ghost upon entering, and you even get the chance to remove the curse once you collect your reward
-"The Lusty Argonian Maid" — Linear as anything, but very funny 
-Helping the drunk bounty hunter catch the slave that has succeeded in making him a frequent patron of the House of Earthly Delights
-Meeting Wulf, though it does not appear to be a quest, it can actually get you a 2 point Reputation bump
-Riddles with the Flame Atronoches, depending on your intelligence you will either be fine, or be screwed
-Again with the riddles, you must challenge a person who has been slandering the Legion to a riddle contest. You intelligence decides the questions that you will see
-Lady with corpus who is in withdrawal- you can kill her, you can get her disposition to 80 and talk her into leaving, or you can give her a quote from Saryoni's Sermon's
-Recovering "Skull Crusher"; depending on your Blunt Weapon skill at the time of getting it, you will either receive a +20 or +5 Blunt Weapon ring
-Hlaalu quest about either getting an ebony monopoly, or shutting down a Redoran mine... if you do both, you get an even larger reward than if you just do one
-Helping the Argonian informant Huleeya out of the bar, where he will be jumped you can either help him, or sit back and laugh as he wastes three Dunmer with his throwing stars
I am sorry if this list has become too long or off-topic, I did try to cut it down a bit It basically lists all of the quests that are not "run-of-the-mill," in my mind. Most non Hlaalu and Telvanni faction quests are repetitive, and frankly it is like that because more complex tasks would be beyond the abilities of a starting character. Of course, I could not make annotations of all possible solutions, and I dare not open my strategy guide to the Great House section, as it is literally falling apart.
The lovely part of this game is that you don't need a quest to go to a dungeon. There are about 40 caves that are not connected to any quests.
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Make good choices. |
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 5:18 am |
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Loremaster
Village Leader
Joined: 31 Mar 2002
Posts: 88
Location: Hampshire, England |
Joey,
Its very clear by now that you're getting very little out of this game whereas the rest of us are having a ball.
The moral is clear: You should stop playing, we should carry on.
Also, can we please all remember this is not the Spoiler section ! |
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 7:41 am |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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Yes, that info about the fighters guild was quite a spoiler! Baaaaaah!
 
(please, Sauron38, edit that part for the benefit of others) |
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 7:46 am |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
Hmm, very sorry, edited.
_________________
Make good choices. |
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 3:15 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
For your benefit, I highlighted the relevant part again.
quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
Barring NPCs that attack me on sight and the main story line, I recall killing only 2 NPCs for my quests.
quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
1. Fighter's Guild Kill Rats - only one option which is to kill the rats.
Rats aren't NPCs. They are animals/critters/monsters/creatures. Not persons, which is what C in NPC stands for: Character.
quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
2. FG Kill Egg Poachers - only one option which is to kill them as they attack immediately upon seeing you. BTW, this is very good game story design - how in the name of common sense did they know you were coming for them?????????? Remember, they weren't killers - just egg poachers.
As you pointed out, they attack immediately upon seeing you. This means they are excluded by the part I highlighted in my quote above.
quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
3. FG Kill Telvanni Agents near Caldora Mine - only one option which is to kill them. You meet the lone agent outside their cave but there is NO option to discuss the matter with him in any way, take a bribe to leave them alone, help them or anything. Once inside, they all attack you outright so you must kill them.
Same as for point 2. Except the guy outside, which is one of the two NPCs I actually had to willingly murder.
quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
4.FG Bring Dura gra-Bol to justice - only one option which was to kill the npc.
This is the second NPC I had to murder, as per my original post. I don't recall murdering any other NPCs for any other quest except for the main story line.
Any killing I did was purely in self defense. Why I refuse to count that as killing, is because if you walk into those areas at any other time, you will be attacked just as well. Kindda like prancing into a Dunmer stronghold or a Daedra Shrine.
Look... I really don't want to be argumentative here. That's not my point. All I'm trying to say is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. You seem to derive a great deal of anguish from your way of skinning the damn cat. All I'm trying to point out is that there are other ways. If you refuse to acknowledge/see that, I'm not gonna twist your arm. I'll go only as far trying to be nice and helpful. Beyond that, I can't be bothered.
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 4:03 pm |
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AlexScherr
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 04 May 2002
Posts: 48
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Well said, sauron38. I'd only add that very few of the thieve's guild quests require murder, very few of the mage's guild, and if I'm right, a minority of the Redoran house (I haven't done Telvanni or Hlaalu yet). Some quest lines DO require a lot of killing: fighters (as Joey has pointed out); legion; of course the Morag Tong assassins. That's consistent with their role; and even many of them run counter to type and allow different solutions. Of course, as alwyas, you could choose not to do them.
I don't think we're going to reach you, Joey, are we? You seems intent on seeing the ending action of the quest as the only thing to draw your attention, and to see the similarity of the walls in caves and tombs as the only thing to assess in the environment. You also seem to want to see only one way to solve problems, and to get through tombs quickly.
You've avoided talking about the understory, or the differences in tactical approach, or the diversity of different kinds of individual quests, quest lines, and of quest approaches within the main story. You've said nothing about the really extraordinary flexibility of the stat system, and the freedom it gives you to play out a character as hard or as easy or as unbalanced as you might like.
I'd love it if the game world were even more diverse, of course, and if there were even more quests. I'd love it if I had even more control over even more attributes, and could develop them in even more ways. But my subjective judgment tells me that Morrowind offers something special, and beyond what I've experienced in other games.
So far, Joey's comments haven't persuaded me to change this opinion. I respect his dislike of the game, just like I'd respect his disliking a novel, or a movie, or a song, or a poem that I happen to like. And I wish he'd come up with something that the game designers could actually do something about, so that his criticisms would produce an improvement in the game: that would be truly useful complaining. But so far he's critiquing to little diversity in graphics, too few different kinds of quests, too little interest in the understory or in the game world, too few or too simple puzzles . . . all of them things that would require Bethesda to hire him, and to defer to his judgments about game design, that is, all of them his subjective reaction to the game.
To quote Loresmaster: "you should stop playing, we should carry on."
Alex |
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 4:15 pm |
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Tybud X
Guest
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i have to agree with Alex. sure, alot of the quests seem repetitive, but if you take the time to speak with the locals about the subject (some of them are knowledgable about different things) you can find out lots of stuff you wouldn't otherwise by just trying to run through the game. on my adventures i discovered numerous shady things about the fighters guild, and their connections and dealing with the canmora tong, and why they seem to send you off to kill people that never seem to be dunmer...perhaps if you explored all your options instead of taking the quest for face value, you could get more enjoyment out of the game. and if that doesnt work, go 'watch' the newest final fantasy game, and youll learn how lucky you are to be playing morrowind. |
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 4:40 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by AlexScherr
I don't think we're going to reach you, Joey, are we? You seems intent on seeing the ending action of the quest as the only thing to draw your attention, and to see the similarity of the walls in caves and tombs as the only thing to assess in the environment. You also seem to want to see only one way to solve problems, and to get through tombs quickly.
First it is important to note that if all others make are comments that are VERY broad brush like "there are plenty of ways to solve the quests" or the like - which we have all heard, no, you won't reach me. I have tried to give concrete examples of the problems I see, but others just give back platitudes, broad brush comments, etc. If nobody wishes to discuss and be willing to back their comments with concrete examples then we will get nowhere - as usual in these forums.
And, no, I am NOT intent on seeing only the end action. What I expect in an RPG (particularly one of this supposed magnitude) are a variety of things. I do NOT care about prettier graphics because that does NOT matter to a storyline or to gameplay - the graphics needs only be sufficient. However, I DO expect there to be multiple ways to solve most if not all quests (otherwise it does NOT matter if you play a thief or a mage or a fighter). Further, those multiples ways to solve quests must not be trivial (someone mentioned that being able to kill an NPC in multiple ways was a good example of how I was wrong - sorry, but that does not cut it). I am NOT fixated on killing only - in fact I WANT there to be multiple nonviolent solutions and have tried to find them in many quests I have done. However, more importantly, these different endings to a quest MUST have some in game functional or storyline rationale and ramifications. For example: if I kill a person to get the item I was sent on a quest to get this should in some meaningful way impact my character (and the plot or subplot) when compared to stealing the item from him. In this game (at least as far as my experience shows) I cannot remember a single time where it really mattered how I got the quest item. It is the combination of lack of multiple non-trivial ways to solve a quest and the lack of ramifications of performing the quest at all and more importantly how I performed the quest that makes this a far less than wonderful ROLE PLAYING experience.
Further, I am not only speaking to the "kill someone" quests. The other non-violent quests are equally trivial and mundane with little or no variations or solutions that I have found. For instance, one thief quest is to fetch a diamond for the quest giver. This is a non-violent quest so give it a great big credit. However, it is so trivial (he tells you who has one) and when you get there it does not even take a thief to perform it. There are diamonds in the unguarded upstairs area for easy picking. Now, even more telling against the game is the fact that due to the game constraints, the ONLY ways to get into a locked chest are through use of lockpicks (anybody can use them quite effectively - not even requiring thieving skills) or low level spells. So what is the game inspired and driven difference between a thief character and a fighter character performing this quest - nothing. They both can use the same lockpick and the fact that the fighter doesn't even have the lockpicking skill matter not at all (I know, because my fighter picked the lock just fine). Now, how many different ways are there to solve this quest? Basically one (yes, there are diamonds on another shelf to steal also - big difference). Further, what are the ingame ramifications of obtaining a diamond from the target's shop or some other location - none. Does this have anything to do with a plot or subplot? No. Does this quest have anything to do with anything at all except getting past this quest so you can do another for the same quest giver? No. I see NO roleplay opportunities (game inspired or given) and NO ramifications of solution versus non-solution and NO significant multiple solutions.
This is just ONE example - that is the problem I see - there are far too many of this example abounding in the game.
Let's look at another problem the game has (this is rampant). Quest is to kill the egg poachers. When you enter the room they are located in, what do they immediately do? They attack you! Now what wonderfully deep and signifcant and accurate story writing this is. Let's look at them carefully. They are egg poachers - that means they are a very low end thief. They would NOT tend to use violence as a primary tactic - they would run or try to talk their way out of the problem if confronted - that is what makes them a low end thief type. So why in the name of common sense (and in the name of good roleplay games) do they immediately attack you? Further, how in the name of common sense (and good game design) could they possibly even know you are there to attack them? What, did someone radio them ahead? Good game design and good roleplay story envolvement would dictate that (1) they not even know why I am there so there should be have been an opportunity for a dialogue box. (2) Their immediate actions SHOULD have been to run away OR try to talk me into letting them go (please good sir, I have 3 hungry children at home to feed). What does this amazingly perfect roleplay environment give us? They magically know I am there to kill them and they go against what would be their natural instincts and attack me openly as their primary action.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 5:16 pm |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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I assumed that being cought in the act and them being three on one, it was quite reasonable for them to try and attack, a perfectly reasonable strategy in the first three attmpts I made on this a it turned out, because they handed my but to me...
What really bothered me much more was that they could not follow me through the teleport door, which really broke the suspension of disbelief. In general I agree with Joey, that more varied behavior of NPCs in dungeons would be appreciated, there should be something in between "attacks right away" and "just stands there waiting to be talked to". How about "runs to get help", "threatens you to get out NOW", "tries to hide in the shadows", "goes into the next room and locks the door behind himself"? Would be nice.
But while it might be relatively simplistic in MW, i find it still works, most of the time. I am excited every time I go into a dungeon, and so Bethesda must have done something right with them. |
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 6:02 pm |
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AlexScherr
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 04 May 2002
Posts: 48
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I liked your reply, Joey. And you used good examples, in my view.
SPOILERS BELOW: necessary to really give specific rebuttals to Joey:
The diamond quest is an early quest in the Thieve's guild, as I recall. It does require you to find diamonds, and does tell you at least one place you can get them. If that were the only place you could get diamonds, then I'd agree it would be pretty lame; but in fact, Sugar Lips isn't all that picky, he just wants diamonds. So the first example of variety in achieving this quest: you can go anywhere on the island to find diamonds, not just the easy and obvious place you're told to go. And there are diamonds in a wide variety of different places.
If you stick with the apothecary woman to whom you're directed, Joey's right: there are two locations to in her house to find them. But Joey's wrong that the upstairs isn't guarded; in fact, the guard goes up and down the stairs, (he was upstairs the last time I was there) so you may well have to use stealth to get the diamonds. Moreover, Joey's wrong that all fighters can use all lockpicks all the time regardless of skill. My figher failed to succeed in a lock pick of that chest repeatedly, and didn't succeed until my security skill went up a little. Action: skill increase -> consequence: more options in game play. Action: ignore security skill -> consequence: fewer successfull lockpicks. And that's an easy chest, to lockpick at level 30 or higher, you have to have really worked on (or paid for) your security skill.
This assumes that you want those upstairs diamonds (which are the right place to go if you're feeling lucky as a fighter and want to rush). MY first time I tried to steal the gems from under the nose of the shop owner: it took me. I got caught, because my sneak skill was too low. There is a way, with very careful work, that you can steal the gems even with a low security skill, but you have to figure it out.
And of course you could just buy the gems, and give them to Sugar Lips. Mundane, maybe, and probably uninteresting to Joey: but the game gives you the chance to do a lot of your fetching with money, if you want to do the research to find out where the seller is, and want to develop your personality and mercantile skills to the point where you can get good prices, and even make a profit.
And of course you could just kill the shopkeeper and the guard, and take the gems openly. Of course, that's a crime, and would place a bounty on your head. If you do this, and especially if you keep doing this, the guards in the various towns get more and more interested in arresting you . . . unless you decide to pay of the debt in one of the various ways you can do this.
And of course you could also use spells and magic to get the diamonds downstairs. You could use an invisibility spell to overcome your weak sneak skill, or you could wait for the guard to walk upstairs (or lure him upstairs, which I've figured out how to do), then use the telekinesis skill to filch the stones from a distance. This would require you to have strong alteration skills (I think that's it), and may also take advantage of your enchant skill.
So: variety in this one quest includes: getting the diamonds using thief, mage, merchant or fighter skillsets; getting the diamonds from upstairs or downstairs; and ignoring the hint from Sugar Lips, and getting the diamonds from somewhere else entirely (which is actually what I did, having found some diamonds after killing some worthless, overly aggressive smugglers in a mine on my first walk to Balmora),
As to consequences. Joey's wrong to say that choosing one of these actions over another has no consequences on gameplay. Sure, it doesn't affect how the quest giver in that quest will respond, at least not in this quest, though it does in others . . . but using one skillset for that quest develops those skills at the expense of the other skills, and makes it easier for me to use that skillset for later tasks, and harder to use the others. Moreover, at least one of the choices (killling and looting) does have consequences.
I find both the variability and the consequences on character development to be more than adequate to assure an engaging set of choices during the playing out of any quest. I bet that Joey doesn't. But the difference isn't an absolute comment on the game's design: it's just in how Joey reacts to the range of options and the significance of the consequences, as opposed to how I react to them. They satisfy me, they don't satisfy him. Nothing objective about it.
As to the overly aggressive egg smugglers, well, I too would support a bit more variety in the behavior of some NPC's, and like GhanBuriGhan would probably prefer to be chased through the teleport door. The NPC's might exhibit a wider range of behaviors. That's a useful critique, which Behtesda (or a mod maker using the very accessible editor) should be able to program. Still, I don't find the default aggressive response all that implausible. If I'm an egg thief in an egg mine, stealing stuff, and someone with a weapon shows up unannounced, well, fight seems about as reasonable as flight.
Of course, I could avoid the fight response entirely by sneaking up behind them and delivering a criticcal hit, or paralysing and tormenting them with fireballs. In fact, in other caves, when I've intended to kill people, I've sometimes been able to sneak up on them, and before they react, to engage them in conversation for a little while, and even to butter them up a little bit (assuming my speechcraft is high enough) before I bring them to a merciful end. But that's too many variations for one argument.
The point: you choose how to do things, from a legitimately broad range of options, and the choices affect at least your character development, and
often other dimensions of the game.
Alex |
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 10:02 pm |
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