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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
In other words: NPCs = mindless robots
Gotcha, thanks. 
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
Thu Jun 13, 2002 12:00 am |
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Llama
High Emperor
Joined: 11 Oct 2001
Posts: 509
Location: Earth |
Naw...
Robots can be given AI, these NPC's don't even have that... |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 12:20 am |
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Lordr31z
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 11 May 2002
Posts: 190
Location: United States of America |
I look at alot of these posts about the game having no content or boring or blah blah blah. I am saying WTF?!? If you honestly believe this then 1 you havent really played the game or 2, you just dont understand the quests or the story of the game. The quests are not boring, this game has more content then any game i have seen. Deep down i think alot of people are saying they just arent smart enough to understand the game.  |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 12:45 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Actually, deep down we're saying, 'This Lordr31z guy couldn't come up with a decent arguement to save his life'.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 1:02 am |
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Lordr31z
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 11 May 2002
Posts: 190
Location: United States of America |
Val, i have something for you ... better not go there you might enjoy it. I know i speak the truth when people get mad and start talking crap. thnx you TOOL.  |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 2:29 am |
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Joey999
Head Merchant
Joined: 07 May 2002
Posts: 55
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I'm gonna chime in here before this topic is locked too (I spent about 30 minutes responding to the seven-parter, hit submit and was told that it was now locked). I'm not necessarily knocking the moderators, I'm just pissed that I wasted so much time.
Anyway, I'll say right up front that "true" RPG's are pretty new to me. I've played some of the Final Fantasy games, from FF3 on Super Nintendo up to FF7 on the PC. I've played Deus Ex, which I loved, although I realize it's not even close to a true RPG. Other than that, the only things that come close are a few adventure games. So I can't compare this game to Gothic or Daggerfest, or whatever else you guys have played.
ALL the problems in this game boil down to the bland, generic NPCs. THEY are the reason that the quests are so boring. If I actually had some motivation for doing what they ask of me, I'd be very happy to deliver a report or kill Dera Utheleth in Urbishkaba cavern. They had some pretty decent writers for all of the books, so why does it seem like they hired George Lucas to do the dialog?
With one exception, there isn't a single character in this game that I give a rat's ass about. In contrast, there were times when I actually came close to CRYING while playing a couple of the FF games. Call me a wuss, I don't care. By the way, the exception to this is Ahnassi in Pelagiad. I guess I'm a sucker for unconditional love. I carry the Gold Kanet that she had me find with me at all times.
It'd be nice to be able to vary my responses to NPCs, and actually have it alter the story line. What if I don't WANT to steal Avenith Uvula's cookbook? Heck, what if I can't FIND the Sacred Shoe Laces of Inveron because I found them at the beginning and sold them to a talking crab? Can't they give me another quest? Even in the few cases where you are asked a question and have multiple choices, it doesn't matter, because if you choose the wrong one, it's just a simple matter of bringing up the subject again and choosing a different response. It just boils down to trial and error.
Also, the completely static nature of the NPCs is a constant reminder that I'm playing a computer game. As many have said before, there is absolutely no reaction to your actions at all. Insult a guy and get in a fight, KILL HIM, and everyone else just stands there like New Yorkers. If you're caught picking a door lock, you're "reported", but pick it undetected, and it's perfectly alright to open it and waltz right through as if it was never locked.
Find a traveler's lost companion, and they just stand there. HEY DUDE, YOU CAN GO NOW. I came across that lady that got robbed and fell in love with the thief something like a YEAR later (in game time) still standing by the road. Her boyfriend was still in the bar in Pelagiad, probably moved on with his life by then. If they couldn't program her to walk away, couldn't they at least have had her move to the bar after I left? Wouldn't it be nice to walk in there and see them together? No, you've completed the quest, end the script there.
And why does EVERY single Ashlander out in the wilderness go for my throat? Can't they see that thier wooden clubs and boiled netch leather greaves are no match for my Plutonium Cuirass and Satan's War Axe? Would it have been so hard to program in some sort of "flee" or "kiss ass" response if you've obviously got the ability to behead them with one slash?
Same goes for the animals. I won't even go into the Cliff Racers, as that's been run into the ground. But how about making some animals run away from you instead of always running full-bore at me? Wouldn't it be cool to actually have to CHASE them occasionally? Might even make a good hunting quest. Imagine tracking a black guar that can outrun you. It'd take a bit of strategy to steer him into a corner or get him with a bow and arrow.
I've tried very hard to "live" my character. I've refused quests because I didn't think it was the right thing to do. I've read all the books I've come across, so I have a good idea of the history of the land. But at this point I'm playing simply to get to the end, because I've invested too much time in it already to just give up. All I can say is that it'd better be a good payoff.
I wanted so very much to love this game. I'm not saying that I hate it -there are at least SOME things to like about it. But I'm just tired of it now.
One last thing: The whole idea of plugins is cool and all, but it shouldn't be up to us to make it interesting. It should have been that way out of the box.
Last edited by Joey999 on Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 2:37 am |
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The Hurricane
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 299
Location: The Sword Coast |
Joey999, great post. I agree 100%. Here's another example:
you break into someone's house through a balcony, after rummaging through various chests and taking what you please, you waltz down stairs to find the owner of the residence standing there like a moron...you'd expect him/her to be in shock or be somewhat enraged that you've broken into in his/her house ... but instead you hear "How can I help you outlander?"
If one thing hurts Morrowind, it's the lack of a "living" world. Other than that the game is great. The character building and gameplay is awesome. I also love the alchemy and enchant abilities. I'd still give Morrowind an 8 or 9/10 even though its inhabitants are dull.
Btw, the "less generic npc" mod in the plugins forum is awesome; it brings life to Seyda Neen. The museum for Balmora is sweet too.
_________________
= Member of The Nonflamers' Guild =
= Member of The Alliance of Middle-Earth =
= Not just a member, but a client of The Followers of Righteousness =
"Stand back...there's a hurricane coming through..." |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 3:11 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Lordr31z
Val, i have something for you ... better not go there you might enjoy it.
If it's more of the same empty flames, then no, I wouldn't enjoy it.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 5:49 am |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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Llama, Not true. Firstly, when you complet quests for them your reputation with them goes up (which I consider a reward in itself), and they will greet you differently. In the fighters guild i am now greeted with slightly mocking friendliness instead of curt remarks. You get a new title. Secondly, they will be willing to talk about more topics if they like you more. since my character is an idiot with speechcraft this is essential to him. Thirdly they will recognize you as the one who helped them when you talk about a quest-topic again. Its enough for me, I can use my imagination to flesh it out a little in my mind. This is probably essential to enjoying Morrowind, you need to be albe to fill in the gaps. I know some here feel cheated because of that, and I can understand. But for me, having spent so much time with P&P gmaes and Daggerfall this is absolutely natural. Its not perfect, but it works for me, and it seems to work for a lot of people. The freedom in how to approach a quest is important to me, and it is one reason why complex quests are difficult to do for such a game. How do you always accomodate all the playstyles that are possible. Assume you had a quest where you want to throw the player into prison, and he has to make his way out of there. For the thief you need to hide a lockpick inthe wall that he can use to open the door, then he can sneak out. For the warrior you must allow him to bash the door in or an opportunity to kill a guard with bare fists through the bars and snatch the key. A bard should be able to charm a guard who will free him. The mage might be able to open the lock magically, but what if he doesnt have that spell. And how strong should the guards be once you get out of the cell? Strong enough to give a knight a challenge? Whats the bard do then? Of course such a quest can be done and done right, but it is hard to consider all possibilities. But if you want to have that freedom (and I think its very important) than the price is that you will make many quests relatively simple, to allow for the different approaches the players might take. Evidence for how this is possible has been posted here on this boards a lot.
Joey, you have been given many examples of quest we consider involved by now, Sauron made a huge list in that other thread, and if you dont recognize them then no, for your standards there are no good quests in this game. You need to find another game, and since a lot of promising RPGs are coming soon or are just below the horizon you might even find one. But no need to say we are vague and evasive, no more so than necessary to avoid the most blatant spoilers. Actually there allready was quite a big spoiler in there for me, and I would appreciate if you move any more in depth discussions of the merits of individual quests to the spoiler forum, thanks.
P.S. (since this thread received some posts sine I started writing) I agree that NPCs should be more alive, active and have better AI. That would be great. It would have meant at least another year of development. It might have killed Bethesda. I rather have them live and make TESIV where they might have a chance to make them so. But for me it does work even the way its now. Ill go do some roboting now, thanks for your attention. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:05 am |
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Joey999
Head Merchant
Joined: 07 May 2002
Posts: 55
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GhanBuriGhan,
Just to be clear, I'm not the same Joey (Nips) that's been completely trashing the game. I won't say that the game sucks or any such nonsense. I'm just expressing my frustration with certain aspects of it.
In a perfect world, Bethesda should have spent another year ironing out all the bugs and giving the world more life, and I would have been fine with that if it produced a superior game. Of course the realities of business don't allow for that luxury.
I don't blame the developers necessarily, since I don't have the inside scoop on their operations. As an application developer, I do undertand a little. Some delays are unavoidable and unforseeable. But there comes a time when deadlines must be met, and the design must be "frozen". Otherwise, the developers will try to delay indefinitely while they tweak every last thing. I'm guilty of it myself, and it's a delicate balance. Sometimes I get obsessed with some non-essential bell or whistle that has no bearing on the functionality, but it's just something I want to do. I eventually have to be reigned in, sometimes by force! I think there may have been a similar situation when it came to the weather effects in this game. But no one was reigned in at the proper time, and the rest of the game suffered. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:16 pm |
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D.J.
Village Leader
Joined: 06 Apr 2002
Posts: 96
Location: Slovenia |
If they tried to put in everything you wanted, we would wait for ages. look at duke nukem forever, ill be happy (or not) if it comes out in this century. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:40 pm |
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bpdlr
Village Dweller
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 24
Location: London UK |
Joey999, great post!!!
quote:
Heck, what if I can't FIND the Sacred Shoe Laces of Inveron because I found them at the beginning and sold them to a talking crab? Can't they give me another quest?
Yup, no dynamism at all. I had to get a Staff early on for the Telvannis and I realised I had sold it ages ago. Can't the NPCs pick up on that? Like, "I need this staff, which you sold to [x] in Seyda Neen." Actually, I'd rather not have to do Fed-Ex trips at all, but that's another story.
quote:
Can't they see that thier wooden clubs and boiled netch leather greaves are no match for my Plutonium Cuirass and Satan's War Axe?
ROFL!! :p
quote:
The whole idea of plugins is cool and all, but it shouldn't be up to us to make it interesting. It should have been that way out of the box.
Spot on. I just hope that the Complete Tamriel Project (see Plugins section) has better quest writers than Bethesda, or that Bethsoft will release free plugins that add a ton of new, dynamic quests to the existing game.
_________________
--
BaZ
Boycott Shampoo!
Demand REAL poo! |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:41 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Joey999
GhanBuriGhan,
Just to be clear, I'm not the same Joey (Nips) that's been completely trashing the game. I won't say that the game sucks or any such nonsense. I'm just expressing my frustration with certain aspects of it.
Just to be clear, please get your facts right before talking. I have NOT been completely trashing the game. I have NEVER said the game sucks or any such nonsense. I NEVER even implied it. To set the record straight (not that many of you here care about that), I happen to think Bethesda did a lot of good things - the game does NOT suck (or any such euphamism). However, I am open minded enough (as a few others here are) to recognize the difference between the hype of a game and the reality. Unlike but a small handfull of posters here, I am also able to separate out fact from opinion. There is a HUGE difference between "liking" a product and that product being "high quality". Unlike a lot of posters here, I am honest enough (even though I WANT the game to be great) to recognize it's faults and wish to discuss how they could (and should) have been better.
quote:
I don't blame the developers necessarily, since I don't have the inside scoop on their operations.
Not wishing to focus too much on semantics (developers, producers, etc.) - they all are lumped into a basket -- them vs us (the consumers). It IS and can only be THEIR fault. You are absolutely correct (as I have said before) there are and always will be tradeoffs - that is patently true. With that said however, Bethesda has fallen WAY short of state of the art for CRPGs. Remember, they have ALL of their resources AND all of the history of CRPG gaming (what was done well, ideas, etc.) - that is why games do and SHOULD always get better and better as they build on the experience of games that came before them. It is also very important to understand that specifically for CRPGs it is NOT the graphical prettiness that is the most important factor. That appears to be what Bethesda focused on MOST - they spent their time and money making the game pretty. And every time manufacturers do that, they push the envelope further which in turn produces the wider and wider variety of "hardware" problems we gamers are experiencing - how many people with high end machines still have fps and other technical problems - far too many.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:47 pm |
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Greb Jnnayr
Village Leader
Joined: 08 Dec 2001
Posts: 75
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I have a good story-
Caution Spoiler for Imperial Legion in Gnisis first orders from the commanding officer. Not part of the main story though, just a guild guest.
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I got a quest where I had to go get a land deed from a lady whose husband just died in an egg mine. The legion wanted the land to expand their opperations. I was told not to take no as an answer. I went to talk to the Widow, and she said no she will not give me the deed. She also told me that her husband was murdered by the Legion for the land deed. She said I could help to prove the murder. So now I had a choice. Kill her for the deed, or go against orders an maybe prove the murder. Well I am not into murder so I decided to go against orders, knowing that this could get me expelled from the legion, but I have my morals. I went into the mine, I eventually found the ghost of the dead husband. He told me that one he snuck into that section of the mine so he could get some eggs to feed his wife and himself and he was able to sneak pass the guard because the guard was asleep. After he got the egg he had to go pass the guardm but the guard was now awake. The guard was afraid that the husband would tell everyone that the guard was asleep and he would get in trouble with the legion. So the guard killed the husband, threw the body down a water hole in the mine with the bloody broken axe since the axe is evidence. The ghost told me I could use the axe as evidence for his murder, and he pleaded with me not to take the deed away from his wife. I then went backto the wife and she was happy that I found the evidence. She asked me to take the evidence to my commanding officer in the legion. The officer said that things like this can't happen. Then he gave me orders to go execute the guard for the murder. I did the execution. When I got back to the commanding officer and asked him about the deed, he said that the legion does not want the deed anymore. He also said that the Legion has started a fund raiser for the Widow, which I was glad to donate to.
Last edited by Greb Jnnayr on Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:54 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
quote:
Not wishing to focus too much on semantics (developers, producers, etc.) - they all are lumped into a basket -- them vs us (the consumers).
Now, how would I care to continue this discussion if you are serious about this?
Joey, think again before posting, please.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:57 pm |
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