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dagamer667
Village Dweller
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 15
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| Am I the only one royally chessed off by the addon? |
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If you are in no mood for reading a rant, you might want to skip this post.
What the hell is up with the "balancing" the addon does to the game? First I find out that many enemies are now tougher. I thought, "Hmm, maybe that's not so bad; some critters were a bit too easy for their size." Then I found out that any monster that could be killed (w/o using exploits) before ch5 had its XP cut down. "It sucks but Jharkendar will probably make up for it."
But no, the training costs were also jacked up to the point where it takes almost twice as many LPs to get half-decent stats along with all the permanent potions nerfed by almost a half along with the reduction of some plants need to make them (exactly that with mana pots). 60pts/%, the situation only gets worse. To put the icing on the cake, some items were castrated as well. The good old Invincibility Ting (+10 to all res. in g2) is now 5/5/3/3 and with the increased enemy damage, it's right next to useless. Most other stat and protection boost items were also nerfed to a varying extent.
Honestly, I have no idea what PB was trying to accomplish by this hatchet job. While powergaming and the abuse of AI exploits (most of which still work great) was only optional before, it's required now in order to defeat many enemies. Sure that shadowbeast is much more dangerous now, but it still died when I backed it against a wall and slashed away until it died without hitting me once.
Before the addon, it was possible to finish the game with a character who earned most of his skills through LPs and not items. Sure, it was fun to use stat boosters to pump your character into the sky, but it was not a requirement to survive the game. Now, training costs are so prohibitive beyond 90pts, it's a requirement to learn the ancient language and track down every stone tablet and the plants for perm. pots in order to just stand a chance in later chapters. Sure, some skills had their costs reduced, but I doubt anyone will have ANY loose LPs to spend on them. I don't even mention the fact that there is absolutely no room for any mistakes now.  |
Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:41 pm |
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Whailor
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 423
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
I fail to see the gripe about XP. It was increased, A LOT, over the whole game. How much XP, do you think, wargs gave in original G2? I can tell you, 150 XP. How much they now give in G2+add-on? 300-frikkin-hundred. And there's LOADS of wargs in the game, so it's a huge XP pool, doubled. How much XP orcs gave, eh? 250 for orc, 300 for shaman, 350 for elite? Now it's significally higher. How much XP gave dragon horn snappers? A bit? Now they give whoppin 400 XP.
Twist as you might, the whole XP range in the game was INCREASED, in times. Yes, some mobs do give less XP, some activities do give less XP, but overall, most of the stuff gives it MORE now, and there's crapload of more XP in the whole game altogether.
Stat potions were nerfed? Sure, some have lesser effects, while some were raised. HP potion added +15 to life, now it's +20. Mana potions were reduced, sure. Did you forget to notice that you can get MULTIPLE time bonus from apples and dark mushrooms now, while in the past it was ONCE per game? Did you also notice that you can pray now much more times then you did it in the past? And, that there are now craploads of stone tablets, adding to you HP, Mana, melee and combat skills? In total, the amount you can get now, permanently, is MUCH higher then it was in original G2. Significally higher. As for weapon skill, you do NOT need to learn now both melee skills only to be good in one you like most. You can train up in only one area and be happy. Resistances were reduced on items? Did you happen to play actually G1, ever? If yes, then you see that items are actually similar to the system they were back then, which was much more balanced. You can't exactly expect that, for example, paladin platemail has ANY kind of GOOD resistance against fire and magic? Excuse me, it's bloody metal armor, hitting it with a fire based spell or electricity based spell is supposed to force you to avoid it next time, ya know  Not to mention that the game was always more difficult to the magicians then to melee chars, much more then it was supposed to do. You had to REALLY want to play the mage to move along, now it has been balanced to the point, where magicians are just as formidable opponents as melee's.
I personally see that the add-on did make it more challeging, sure, and reduced some things, but overall the game is now MUCH more fun, and in total, rewards now much more as well. I like the add-on, it did nothing else then improve the game, a lot, was just what I personally expected. I have played through G1 and when I tried G2, I missed some of the G1 feeling, because it was more evolved, deeper. Make no mistake, I liked G2 as it was, but it still missed "something", what was in G1. Now G2 has that "something" added to it as well, with the add-on, and it only got better
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Been there, done that . . . |
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Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:01 pm |
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dagamer667
Village Dweller
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 15
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Well, what level should I expect to finish the game at with the addon? It was somewhere around 45-50 in the original for me. Yes, I did notice that orcs give quite a bit more xp now.
About the HP potions, has anyone EVER wasted a KS on them? With 400+ HPs, 20HP is a drop in the ocean. Especially, when you have the tablets doing the same. With only 25(?) KS plants in the whole game, there better things to use them on (not to mention the LPs needed to learn the pot). Like I said, the useful pots got nerfed.
Also, I already said that players should not be expected to download a map and track down every single tablet. The higher totals don't mean much when 200ST in the addon is pretty much equivalent to 90-100 in g2classic in terms of how much health you will chip off on any given monster per single hit.
Finally, combat skills seem to train the same way they did in g2-you can train just a single one and the other will trail behind by 30 points or so.
P.S. The only reason a mage's life was so hard in g2 was because of limited runestone availability and the circle advancement being tied to the chapters and not just the LPs like g1. by ch5, mages got even more powerful than melee chars. |
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Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:36 pm |
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Xerxes712
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Nov 2002
Posts: 605
Location: Uber die Welt |
If it is any interest, I am working on hacking the Raven gothic.dat fiel to balance things out some more especially in regards to Alchemey and spells for magicians.
Anything that has a value can be changed. EXP for quest (more for the beginner mage quest) weapons stats; permenate potion effects, what NPC will sell (King Sorrel) some more stuff for a beginner mage. Spell rebalance big time. One particular useful during the early game chapter 1 and 2. they would be over ridden with beter spells in chapter 3, and 4. Even all NPC, monster, armor stats.
I also remove most of the exploits I can think of, almost. Example, go smack Brahim the map maker in the harbor and he will no longer talk to you or sell you anything unless you pay the fine to Andre.
Plus no more buying infinite swords as a mercenary and making a ton money, only so many per day.
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Wo ist mein Sumpfkraut? |
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Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:59 pm |
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Gorn's best mate
Village Dweller
Joined: 25 Apr 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Shrike's hut |
I liked it the way it was. I never played classic, so I can't possibly comment on the increase in difficulty, but the way I played it first time was just fine. I especially enjoyed having to sneak around in the VOM on my first visit, because of all those tough monsters I couldn't beat.
Of what I read, PB where bombarded by request to make the game more challenging, so here we are. Can't please them all, I guess.
If you are really that unhappy, find out how to modify the parameters like Xerxes is doing. |
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Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:11 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
The German community already produced a tool to adjust difficulty soon after the release.
I think the balancing is better now. G2 was too easy for hardcore RPGers.
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Webmaster GothicDot |
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Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:09 am |
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dagamer667
Village Dweller
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 15
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorath
The German community already produced a tool to adjust difficulty soon after the release.
I think the balancing is better now. G2 was too easy for hardcore RPGers.
Hey, if you want challenge, then try and finish the whole game without any armor and only using your fists as weapons.
Blizzard did the same thing a while ago with Diablo 2. They balanced the game to make it hard for people with all best gear (half of which was dupes) and also made impossible for those who didn't have all the best dupes and uniques. |
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Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:16 am |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
Well, you knew it before you bought it.  
Itīs still possible. The melee careers are okay. Only the mage is asking for trouble.
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Webmaster GothicDot |
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Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:37 am |
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Xerxes712
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Nov 2002
Posts: 605
Location: Uber die Welt |
Please do not misunderstand me! I think the game with the Add-on is better by being more difficult! G2 was way too easy.
I am just making some changes to make it more FUN. Example, why would anyone take any other spell than Fireball? It is the most damage for mana?
I just would like the other spells worth your time to try out. It does not take away from the difficulty at all, just opens up other spell paths for the Mage.
I did read in the review that a mage really gets his during the earlier chapters that the majority of the Add-on occurs; which may make the mage too hard for a player, not impossible but boring.
I just tweak it so the mage can get more EXP for his specific quest and/or speacial weapon; and/or some of them odd Circle 1 and 2 spells more powerful; but not overbearing.
I was and did make a G2Hard Mod patch but I assumed we were going to get th add-on last year; so I figured it was a waste to work on it more. You know, more tougher Seekers and Dragons for example.
Well, the Add-on never came out iin English, and G2 collected dust. Go read my posts in the Mod Disscussion Thread about what I was up to.
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Wo ist mein Sumpfkraut? |
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Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:48 am |
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dagamer667
Village Dweller
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 15
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I knew the addon was going to be more difficult, but I did not expect the Cheese Factor to be so bad. There are ways to make a game more difficult without resorting to cheesy fixes like that. |
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Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:50 am |
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Whailor
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 423
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
Oh well, can't please everybody The majority, and I mean literally almost all of the G2 players, do enjoy the add-on though, so it isn't a bad thing. I think that overall I have seen only 3-4 topics/people, who have posted similar thoughts like you did, and hundreds of times more people post positive feedback. Since this is a democratic world, then based on the democratic voting rules and all, it seems that the add-on is a huge success and a big step towards the right direction
To Xerxes - if you release that package, please release it as a mod, so that it will be easy to install and uninstall Patch directly modifying the game would be not good, but as a mod, I'd try it.
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Been there, done that . . . |
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Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:15 am |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
| Re: Am I the only one royally chessed off by the addon? |
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quote:
Originally posted by dagamer667
What the hell is up with the "balancing" the addon does to the game? First I find out that many enemies are now tougher. I thought, "Hmm, maybe that's not so bad; some critters were a bit too easy for their size." Then I found out that any monster that could be killed (w/o using exploits) before ch5 had its XP cut down. "It sucks but Jharkendar will probably make up for it."
(...)
I don't even mention the fact that there is absolutely no room for any mistakes now.
Like Whailor also said. I disagree with you on cut down of XP. Strength and XP are more balanced now. Just the most exaggerated example: For a dragon you got about 4000 or more exp and for an Orc Elite only 350, but on Orc Elite is much more dangerous than a dragon in G2. No serious, I think they did a pretty good job.
In real life you can't make any mistakes too. 
Just to make you feel better. PB has also heard all the complaining about G2 being too easy and the addon being too hard (die-hard players vs regular, for-fun-players). G3 will most likely have difficulty levels, to solve this right from the beginning.
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Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:42 am |
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Daedalus
High Emperor
Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 2516
Location: Estonia |
well when i first finished Gothic 2 addon i feeled it was alot harder than Gothic 2 plain and i damn much liked it!!!  cos this time u needed to think , will you attack that creature or not and how it would be to kill it easyer etc in Gothic 2 plain u just runned at any creature and just attacked him and most likely you killed it but in the addon u need to think more strategyc . Let me give u a example if u go hunting a Deer or Boar or Bear u dont shoot it just where the bullet goes , You gonna aim at his heart , lungs or head more cos you know if you gonna shoot at the creature in the wrong place it most likely will attack you the same is in addon you need to think more strategically if u manage to kill that creature
Btw about the money thing ppl talk about that everything is too damn expencive well in the addon u can earn money if u have patients for example with swords making and imo its not a bug or something its like a work you just sit 1-2 days in your workplace and forge swords and after that you go and sell them somewhere . That way btw i almost buyed all those expencive potions from everyone |
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Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:05 pm |
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dagamer667
Village Dweller
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 15
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Money is a bit of a problem at first, but then it's mostly a non-issue unless you buy lots of supplies like pots. I didn't think that items were too expensive. Then again, the majority of the good items are found in the game and not bought in stores.
I disagree about the need for more strategy other than the fact that you need to be really good at splitting up the mobs. Otherwise, it's suicide. My guy can easily clobber a single warg, but two or more are too hard. One thing that makes wargs so hard is that they tend to attack in packs.
Sem: Everyone agrees that some monsters really needed to be buffed up, with dragons at the top of the list. I didn't have a lot of trouble with them even when I played the game for the first time without excessive powergaming.
You are absolutely right about die-hard vs regular players. For die hard players, the addon is just challenging enough to be fun, but it may be nearly unplayable for people who that do not collect every plant, stone tablet, and all the jewellery in the game in order to maximize their stats without coughing up 4-5 LP per every stat point. If you are a real powergamer, according to one guide, a merc only needs to train 42 str (68 for the pally and the mage) to use the berserker axe (170st) by the very end of the game. The gap between 42 and 170 is bridged by items, quests, and potions. I don't think it's a fair assumption that regular players will be able to get all of these bonuses.
Start collecting those apples early .
I really hope you are right about g3 having difficulty options. |
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Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:44 pm |
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Xerxes712
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Nov 2002
Posts: 605
Location: Uber die Welt |
quote:
To Xerxes - if you release that package, please release it as a mod, so that it will be easy to install and uninstall Patch directly modifying the game would be not good, but as a mod, I'd try it.
I do not know how to make an installer/remover. But it is simple enough. Just replace one file 'gothic.dat' with the modified one.
I suppose someone could write a simple installer. Anyway, that project would not be finished until I see later what people think about the mage spells mostly, so the mage has more 'fun' in the early chapter with more 'free' spells that are better in thier own unique respect, to try without having to worry so much about losing LP. A rather small but 'fun' change.
I absolutely like the add-on challenge; I just wanted the mage to have more "fun" with spells; and tone down the major out right cheaty exploits while I am at it. Infinite sword making; Brahim Map maker; Walking around gate guard; you know the ones.
I may even respawn some creatures per chapter so if you really need to buff up XP; go out and hunt some more, (makes learning hunting skills worth it for money).
Daedalus: As for the infinite swords making; I thought that was too much of an exploit, I nerfed it. You can still make infinite money, but it will take you quite a while. So many per 24 hour game cycle and/or lower price paid per sword.
Being a hunter is almost better, I increased price paid for animal parts especially skins sold to Bosper. Plus animals can be made to respawn with chapter change (that one has to be thought out carefully).
With the the major exploits nerfed almost to zero for making thousands of gold quickly, hunting is a good balance to make money to buy them expensive weapons. Else you are broke.
And I made alchemy a "little" better. Really, between LP to learn permenate effect potions compared to just eating them roots, it is only a net gain of 29 LP for all the King Sorrell to be found. Was +5 now only +3.
Maybe someone can do the math, but it is hard to use it during the early game. I could lower the LP to learn each, or up the effect, or increase the number of King Sorrel or the Dragon roots, and Goblin berries. Still up in the air.
I still need to finish the game with add-on with all three classes to know for sure! I do love the add-on though, it is much better than G2 alone, I just want to add more to it without breaking the game's fun.
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Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:25 am |
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