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Marney
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 9
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Here's the thing. I haven't bought DL and I won't buy DL. I was looking forward to what it promised it would be though I should've known better. I played the demo and boy did it suck - looks like nothing, nothing at all, has improved. I hope DreamCatcher, Heuristic Park, and DW Bradley all go down hard for this one, because by God they deserve to.
It's time to shelve all the garbage about "small developers putting their heart and soul into brave little products that should be forgiven any and all problems because they're doing it for the love of their craft."
BS. Total. F'n. BS.
Big or small, game designers, developers, and publishers put out games in order to make money. Some are better than others. Bradley, HP, and DC are close to the bottom of the trash heap. They've earned their position.
As other people have already pointed out Spiderweb is a small company too. Much smaller than HP - they have, what, 4 people? They do what they do and they do it right. Tom Proudfoot was one guy and he made Natuk. Natuk was done right. One Must Fall 2097 was great - 2 guys who did it right.
DWB does it wrong because he's an arrogant hack. Don't bring up Wiz7 - it was made by the same people who made Wiz8 (no Bradley), an infinitely superior successor to Wiz7 (some Bradley) than W&W (all Bradley). The logical conclusion is that Wiz7 was good because Bradley's influence was minimized, not because he was involved. At best it means he was part of a team which slapped down his crazier ideas and just used the good ones - though even that's a tough case to make given Wiz8 (again I say, no Bradley).
Which brings us to heart and soul. I. Do. Not. CARE. Hearts and souls may make for good Satanic rituals but they produce painfully horrid games. Man was created with a brain - try using that for a change, DWB. Effort != product. Effort + talent = product. When confronted by abominations like W&W and DL it's clear something is missing from the equation. You're postulating effort, so it seems the inevitable conclusion is that talent is AWOL.
How can I be so heartbreakingly cruel to these devoted people who spent so many hundreds of hours working on this game?!!!
Easy. The game is crap and I'm not an elementary school self-esteem counselor.
I'm not a paying customer, either, because of the demo. And the reviews. And the comments.
Thanks for creating the Internet, Al.
Respect is earned through competence. I don't care if the incompetent get their feelings hurt by nasty reviews of their incompetence no matter how small they are or how hard they worked. Capitalism doesn't run on saccharine sentimentality. Incompetence is not rewarded. It is, in fact, punished.
And that is how it's supposed to work. If they don't like it, if you don't like it, move to Cuba. Or Zimbabwe.
(Anyone notice that DWB's initials comprise all the consonants you need to spell "dweeb?" Yeah, I'm being childish, but godawful games like DL bring out my inner immaturity. I feel like sticking out my tongue and saying "Bleah!")
So anyway, don't try to sell me that "hard work" line. I didn't buy it with W&W, and I actually paid good money for that. All the schlock from that disgrace to RPGs clearly remained in this one. Can't get NPCs to shut up? Check. Missing promised features? Check. Unstable platform? Check. Bugs out the wazoo? Oh most certainly check.
Fool me once, guys. Fool me once. |
Sun May 15, 2005 10:20 am |
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Marney
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 9
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PS: Bleah. |
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Sun May 15, 2005 10:27 am |
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Priest4hire
Head Merchant
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 52
Location: Slocan, BC |
Don't you think that's just a little bit harsh? Yes, Wizardry 8 was worthy even without Bradley but it also built on much that had come before in 6&7. Standing on the shoulders of giants and all that. Yes, Dungeon Lords had a bad launch but it's not all bad. It is not the case that a game is either terrific or it blows. Dungeon Lords has many positive features including a character creation and building system that is really great. Certainly it's a step up from the 'choose your hero' approach that too many games seem to take especially in the action/RPG subgenre. Deep mechanics are something you just don't see around much these days.
I am just hoping that HP can get their crap together and get this game finished before the European launch. RPGs seem to do better over there and perhaps if they finish the thing it might generate some much needed sales. That is assuming the NA launch hasn't soured the waters.
_________________
Watch your back. Shoot straight. Conserve ammo. And never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
Grammaton Dragon
-==(UDIC)==- |
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Sun May 15, 2005 12:38 pm |
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GothicGothicness
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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Give Bradley a team the size of the one working many of todays other titles ( a.k.a 60+ persons ) instead of 7- come go people, and see what he could produce, if that happend it'd be fair to complain.
You can't compare the new titles with the old ones, imagine the amount of work that go into graphic and sound these days, in order to even have a chance for a publisher to pick it up. I think that DL would have been brilliant if it was given the kind of resources producing a game today takes.
You can't compare it to the work of shareware developers like spider software, they can publish it anytime they want to, and they don't need any cutting edge technology to show a publisher, they can focus on gameplay instead, but they'll never have the resources to make the kind of game that combines cutting edge visuals, with epic features, and great gameplay.
Seeing how gameplay is the most important, and with the outcome of DL in hand though, one can wounder if it wouldn't have been better for DW to try his luck as a shareware developer, this would mean he would have to find other people to work on it aswell without getting paid until the eventual sales it may or may not generate though. |
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Sun May 15, 2005 12:55 pm |
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Marney
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 9
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quote:
Originally posted by Priest4hire
Don't you think that's just a little bit harsh?
Honestly, no, not so much. I'm sick and tired of people trotting out the "He cares so much about his craft!" irrelevancies whenever stuff like this happens.
quote:
Yes, Wizardry 8 was worthy even without Bradley but it also built on much that had come before in 6&7.
That's a fair point.
Equally, however, I don't see how DL is any sort of advance from 6, 7, or W&W. Someone point me in the right direction - because based on the demo I ain't seein' it. Seems to me DWB just took everything he'd done before, tried to mix in new (well, new to him) tech, messed up most of what had worked in games he'd been involved in earlier, kept everything that hadn't, and added a whole new level of utterly baffling design choices just for the hell of it.
(Ninjutsu is still a ridiculous uberskill, for example - and now we've got any and all weapons previously carried automatically discarded by the game, no player input required. In the demo I thought this was just because I couldn't find a vendor so excess stuff was useless anyway, but apparently it's in the full game as well. Why on earth?)
Can't believe you mentioned character creation though, with all the promised (and let's face it, this is basically expected these days) customization plain flat-out missing.
I'm sorry, but even if the "poor oppressed little developer and would-be genius designer oppressed by EVIL MONOLITHIC CAPITALIST PUBLISHER who only cares about money!!" line was true I don't care. I just don't care.
Stop with the excuses. Just stop. Before you try to sell something you be damn sure it works the way it's supposed to. If you can't deliver, don't promise you can. And when you put your name on something y'all stand up and take responsibility for it.
There's a name for those old-fashioned concepts down here in the South - we call it "being a man."
Last edited by Marney on Sun May 15, 2005 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sun May 15, 2005 4:45 pm |
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Marney
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 9
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicGothicness
Give Bradley a team the size of the one working many of todays other titles ( a.k.a 60+ persons ) instead of 7- come go people, and see what he could produce
I don't immediately see where he proved he deserves that kind of a chance.
DL isn't mainly lacking in the bells and whistles area a bigger team and a bigger budget would've brought to the project - though yes, it's lacking there too, as it's lacking in pretty much every area.
DL is fundamentally flawed in its initial design and concept stages. In almost every area, from inventory management to magic systems, this is a step backward from W&W - and I didn't think that was a step forward from anything, either. |
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Sun May 15, 2005 4:52 pm |
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GothicGothicness
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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quote:
I don't immediately see where he proved he deserves that kind of a chance.
Well, after the way DL turned out I'm not sure either, but he managed to get me very excited with the trailers and info about what would be possible. It sounded like everything I was missing from the old rpgs. With many exotic races, and the ability to build a character á la wizardry, unexpected plot twist, and a lot of dungeons with random encounters to ensure it doesn't play the same everytime. On top of that it'd ( unlike most of todays title ) offer a lot of playing time. What I'm saying is it's unfair to compare it to many other titles which had a lot of more resources.
As soon as I heard they'd add multiplayer, I was almost sure something like this would happen though. It's never a good sign for a single player RPG, BG is the only series it worked out for. |
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Sun May 15, 2005 6:05 pm |
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Marney
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 9
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Ditto on the potential; I was (cautiously) looking forward to it too. Pity it mostly turned out to be lies. Good point on the multiplayer thing - that does seem to be a consistent harbinger of this kind of debacle. |
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Sun May 15, 2005 6:15 pm |
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Priest4hire
Head Merchant
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 52
Location: Slocan, BC |
quote:
(Ninjutsu is still a ridiculous uberskill, for example - and now we've got any and all weapons previously carried automatically discarded by the game, no player input required. In the demo I thought this was just because I couldn't find a vendor so excess stuff was useless anyway, but apparently it's in the full game as well. Why on earth?)
Well, yes Ninjitsu is pretty much an über skill - or it was until they broke it with the patch - but it's also harder to get and some of the better weapons help balance things. The throwing away of excess stuff is partially a result of the launch debacle. It was supposed to have been fixed via the 'junk' section of the inventory. Presumably it will be fixed in the next patch. And yes, that sounds as apologetic to me as I suspect it does to you.
quote:
Can't believe you mentioned character creation though, with all the promised (and let's face it, this is basically expected these days) customization plain flat-out missing.
In all fairness character appearance customization of the kind that's missing is still only sometimes seen in RPGs. However they did promise it and it was a debacle of a release. It's supposed to be back in the game with the next patch. God I hate saying that. I was in fact not referring to that aspect obviously but to the Wizards & Warriors esque character building system.
quote:
Stop with the excuses. Just stop. Before you try to sell something you be damn sure it works the way it's supposed to. If you can't deliver, don't promise you can. And when you put your name on something y'all stand up and take responsibility for it.
You're right of course. There is no excuse for the kind of condition the game shipped in. That doesn't remove the game's better qualities however. In the balance the launch was terrible and the game in horrid shape and there are some questionable design decisions but that doesn't make it all bad.
quote:
DL isn't mainly lacking in the bells and whistles area a bigger team and a bigger budget would've brought to the project - though yes, it's lacking there too, as it's lacking in pretty much every area.
Well, at least it might have had the content and debugging needed to make it complete. The same game with more work done on every aspect but with the same core design would have been much better. It is amazing the difference that some polish can make.
Why is it I am starting to feel like the meat in a sandwich?
_________________
Watch your back. Shoot straight. Conserve ammo. And never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
Grammaton Dragon
-==(UDIC)==- |
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Mon May 16, 2005 5:00 am |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by GothicGothicness
Well, after the way DL turned out I'm not sure either, but he managed to get me very excited with the trailers and info about what would be possible. It sounded like everything I was missing from the old rpgs.
Fist off, I haven´t played DL yet. All I know about it comes from stuff available on the net and a presentation in the German publisher´s office.
I´m quite suprised the released material got you excited. IMHO the trailers and gameplay videos were absolutey horrible - not to say amateurish, which is probably a huge insult for a professional  -, most (all ?) screenshots were in low res and showed the same few scenes again and again, and DWB stressed over and over again that DL would be the next Diablo. I don´t think there was anything to get excited about when the game was close to release. Early previews don´t count because they´re more an assessment of a title´s potential.
_________________
Webmaster GothicDot |
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Mon May 16, 2005 5:33 am |
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Marney
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 9
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I can't keep this up because I feel bad for your side of the argument. It's just plain unfair to force you to defend this to any degree. 
So here's hoping some patch, someday, vindicates all our hopes... I'm still not holding my breath, though, and I suspect no one else is either. |
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Mon May 16, 2005 5:33 am |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by GothicGothicness
Give Bradley a team the size of the one working many of todays other titles ( a.k.a 60+ persons ) instead of 7- come go people, and see what he could produce, if that happend it'd be fair to complain.
You can't compare the new titles with the old ones, imagine the amount of work that go into graphic and sound these days, in order to even have a chance for a publisher to pick it up. I think that DL would have been brilliant if it was given the kind of resources producing a game today takes.
I think you´re completely off track. Where is the correlation between team size and game quality in the RPG genre? Bioware has unlimted staff for their games and their success proves their games are great. Master Creating did Restricted Area with 2 people (!), including management, and a lot of outsourcing; the game is a success, although it´s for sure no masterpiece. Most of the more successful central European RPG studios (for example Piranha Bytes, Larian, Arkane, Silver Style) have between 10 and 20 people. Bethesda is much bigger. Ascaron has 56 developers and releases ~4 retail products per year.
Team size doesn´t matter that much. Talent does (-> leads to high quality execution), then comes concept (-> a superb concept makes the game better), then budget (low budget means the concept has to be modified).
_________________
Webmaster GothicDot |
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Mon May 16, 2005 5:52 am |
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Lysiander
Village Dweller
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 4
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Well, after having played the game for about 15 hours now, I must say I have to take a few things back. The game is nowhere near as bad as the first review made it out to be. (At least not patched, I never tried unpatched.)
The dungeon crawls are good, the basic gameplay is allright and for a weird reason I cant really define the game is real fun despite many drawbacks.
However, there are some really sad things. For instance a complete tavern without a single bed and many unlit fireplaces. Or the random spawn generator that spawns monsters right behind you from a dead end you just cleared.
The Grafics look pretty sad for this day and age, but I can live with that. Just bogles me they bothered with shadows and didn't bother with decent looking armor.
All in all, the game is fun to play, but it really pains me to see the game beeing this fun unfinished and imagining what an awesome game it could have been if they had just taken the time to properly polish and finish it.
Ah well, gothic 3 is on it's way. |
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Mon May 16, 2005 11:06 am |
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GothicGothicness
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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quote:
I think you´re completely off track. Where is the correlation between team size and game quality in the RPG genre?
This is not exactly what I meant, it's just with DL it feels so obvious that he didn't have the kind of resources needed to make what he wanted, team size was probably the wrong word though, I shoul have said money, talented people and time, that'd bring the equation togheter better.
Restricted Area is a 2d-game you can't compare it with the effort needed for a 3d one. As for the gothic team.. they were more people, but they also had unearthly talent  , we're talking about the best of the best here.
quote:
I´m quite suprised the released material got you excited.
I can say that it wasn't graphic that made me excited, it was the fact that you could have an action style combat in a RPG like this, it was like Gothic in the sense of a large free world with many quests, but with a lot of random encounters, and more and cooler action moves and a lot more detail into character creation and development.... well it was the impression I got anyhow  |
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Mon May 16, 2005 5:20 pm |
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Marney
Here's the thing. I haven't bought DL and I won't buy DL. I was looking forward to what it promised it would be though I should've known better. I played the demo and boy did it suck - looks like nothing, nothing at all, has improved. I hope DreamCatcher, Heuristic Park, and DW Bradley all go down hard for this one, because by God they deserve to.
It's time to shelve all the garbage about "small developers putting their heart and soul into brave little products that should be forgiven any and all problems because they're doing it for the love of their craft."
BS. Total. F'n. BS.
Big or small, game designers, developers, and publishers put out games in order to make money. Some are better than others. Bradley, HP, and DC are close to the bottom of the trash heap. They've earned their position.
As other people have already pointed out Spiderweb is a small company too. Much smaller than HP - they have, what, 4 people? They do what they do and they do it right. Tom Proudfoot was one guy and he made Natuk. Natuk was done right. One Must Fall 2097 was great - 2 guys who did it right.
DWB does it wrong because he's an arrogant hack. Don't bring up Wiz7 - it was made by the same people who made Wiz8 (no Bradley), an infinitely superior successor to Wiz7 (some Bradley) than W&W (all Bradley). The logical conclusion is that Wiz7 was good because Bradley's influence was minimized, not because he was involved. At best it means he was part of a team which slapped down his crazier ideas and just used the good ones - though even that's a tough case to make given Wiz8 (again I say, no Bradley).
Which brings us to heart and soul. I. Do. Not. CARE. Hearts and souls may make for good Satanic rituals but they produce painfully horrid games. Man was created with a brain - try using that for a change, DWB. Effort != product. Effort + talent = product. When confronted by abominations like W&W and DL it's clear something is missing from the equation. You're postulating effort, so it seems the inevitable conclusion is that talent is AWOL.
How can I be so heartbreakingly cruel to these devoted people who spent so many hundreds of hours working on this game?!!!
Easy. The game is crap and I'm not an elementary school self-esteem counselor.
I'm not a paying customer, either, because of the demo. And the reviews. And the comments.
Thanks for creating the Internet, Al.
Respect is earned through competence. I don't care if the incompetent get their feelings hurt by nasty reviews of their incompetence no matter how small they are or how hard they worked. Capitalism doesn't run on saccharine sentimentality. Incompetence is not rewarded. It is, in fact, punished.
And that is how it's supposed to work. If they don't like it, if you don't like it, move to Cuba. Or Zimbabwe.
(Anyone notice that DWB's initials comprise all the consonants you need to spell "dweeb?" Yeah, I'm being childish, but godawful games like DL bring out my inner immaturity. I feel like sticking out my tongue and saying "Bleah!")
So anyway, don't try to sell me that "hard work" line. I didn't buy it with W&W, and I actually paid good money for that. All the schlock from that disgrace to RPGs clearly remained in this one. Can't get NPCs to shut up? Check. Missing promised features? Check. Unstable platform? Check. Bugs out the wazoo? Oh most certainly check.
Fool me once, guys. Fool me once.
"Here's the thing. I haven't bought DL and I won't buy DL. I was looking forward to what it promised it would be though I should've known better. I played the demo and boy did it suck - looks like nothing, nothing at all, has improved. I hope DreamCatcher, Heuristic Park, and DW Bradley all go down hard for this one, because by God they deserve to."
By God they should have a plane flown into them and their children should be raped and beheaded, by God. Kill them, kill them all. Filthy heathens. How dare they make a game you didn't even waste money on? By the holy Jesus they deserve an eternity of pain and suffering in Hell for the torture they put you through, By God.
"It's time to shelve all the garbage about "small developers putting their heart and soul into brave little products that should be forgiven any and all problems because they're doing it for the love of their craft."
BS. Total. F'n. BS."
Why? Because only the big boys should get a chance and a fair shake? Great idea, lets go buy a bunch of copies of "The little Engine that Could" and then we can crap all over them.
"Big or small, game designers, developers, and publishers put out games in order to make money. Some are better than others. Bradley, HP, and DC are close to the bottom of the trash heap. They've earned their position."
Sometimes people make desisions that do not make money and are not good for the bottom line. Is their money in humping animals? Why do hillbillies do it? Is there money in making more complex rpgs? Why make one? If you really believe hp made all the design decisions they did to make lots of money you really are in no place to call HP any names that imply they are stupid.
"As other people have already pointed out Spiderweb is a small company too. Much smaller than HP - they have, what, 4 people? They do what they do and they do it right. Tom Proudfoot was one guy and he made Natuk. Natuk was done right. One Must Fall 2097 was great - 2 guys who did it right."
What did spiderweb do right and wrong? Do they publish the games themselves or do they have a contract with milestones and budget with a publisher? Do their games get trashed for not having fancy smancy graphics? You really can't compare what they do, you can just bring up how fairly their games were reviewed. Would it be fair to judge a hillbilly and a civilized person by the quality of their teeth?
"DWB does it wrong because he's an arrogant hack. Don't bring up Wiz7 - it was made by the same people who made Wiz8 (no Bradley), an infinitely superior successor to Wiz7 (some Bradley) than W&W (all Bradley). The logical conclusion is that Wiz7 was good because Bradley's influence was minimized, not because he was involved. At best it means he was part of a team which slapped down his crazier ideas and just used the good ones - though even that's a tough case to make given Wiz8 (again I say, no Bradley)."
You have no idea who offered what to what games, but at least this nonsense is consistent with your other nonsense. Its just based on imigination.
"Which brings us to heart and soul. I. Do. Not. CARE. Hearts and souls may make for good Satanic rituals but they produce painfully horrid games. Man was created with a brain - try using that for a change, DWB. Effort != product. Effort + talent = product. When confronted by abominations like W&W and DL it's clear something is missing from the equation. You're postulating effort, so it seems the inevitable conclusion is that talent is AWOL."
One man's trash is another man's treasure. All your points and poorly formulated opinions based on imagination are pretty silly. What you consider good isn't the be all end all of good. You are one person with one poorly informed and formulated opinion and you posses a low threshhold of understanding. Man was also created with a heart. Just because I believe Kotor 2 and Diablo are abominations doesn't mean they are. Because people aren't the same. For instance, my family does not engage in incest or have sex with farm animals. We brush out teeth. My father isn't my favorite uncle. I wear shoes. I don't surround myself with flags used by my kin in a war we were beaten in. And I like to use facts instead of ingorant opinions.
"How can I be so heartbreakingly cruel to these devoted people who spent so many hundreds of hours working on this game?!!!
Easy. The game is crap and I'm not an elementary school self-esteem counselor.
I'm not a paying customer, either, because of the demo. And the reviews. And the comments."
So this means your an angry man who likes to spout out nonsense and hate things for no reason. Like hating those damn cotton-picking negroes because the color of their skin is different. Lets all just fill ourselves with ignorant hate and hate things because we don't like it. Weeeeeeeeeeee.
"Respect is earned through competence. I don't care if the incompetent get their feelings hurt by nasty reviews of their incompetence no matter how small they are or how hard they worked. Capitalism doesn't run on saccharine sentimentality. Incompetence is not rewarded. It is, in fact, punished."
First off, my left testicle knows more about capitalism than your ignorant statements imply you do. Let me leran you good, boy. I would say the roots of American capitalism are found in the Scottish Enlightenment, man can decide for himslef and can rule himself. Freedom and responsibility. Man will not revert to an ignorant and bloody savage if a tyrrantical organization (the church in their instance) does not completely dominate them. Man can rule himself and act responsibly (not slam and slander things he knows nothing about).
In the US's form of capitalism, trying is rewarded and failure from trying is cushioned to make sure people keep trying. That is the sole reasons for the invention of LLC's. As a society we want people to try, we want them not to be broken if they fail, we want them to pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and try again. Most new biusinesses fail. Most new ideas suck. And most people don't make it. We want people to come up with new things and steal the power and wealth from those who have it. Capitalism would fail if it didn't work that way. Like with the game Monopoly, if someone wins the capitalism game, its over. We have to make sure no one wins. And the only way to do that is to make sure people keep inventing, keep trying, failure doesn't hurt that bad, and the liitle guys always have a chance of beating the big guys. Our whole system is geared towards that. And if someone does make it big, the reap the benefits (through patents, etc).
What goes hand and hand with that is an educated populace. If people are going to keep invcenting and a dynamic society and economy keeps being dynamic and flowing everyone needs a fair shake at being able to beome number one and also to make decisions for themselves. The bipartisan lemming like politics and party loyalty that rule today and ignorant people that think they understand things or have any right to judge and be angry at something they have no right of judging and being angry at are destropying this. People are becoming less educated and less informed. They dismiss information and ignore info that they disagree with and just soak up what the people they agree with feed them. Facts, lies, and truth are meaningless now, and opinion is somehow turning into truth and lies, right and wrong, etc. Opinion has never been about right and wrong, opinion is about what someone believes when truth and lies, absolute right and wrong, etc are absent from the equation.
And bnow we get to the other thing neccesary for capitalism: civilisation. In civilized society people are not filled with ignorant hatred and do not spread lies or pass opinion off a s fact to other peoples detrament. People shouldn't try and hurt others for no reason. just because you do not value what others do the same way they do doesn't or shouldn't mean you have the right to get up on a soapbox and try and hurt them. Responsibility goes hand and hand with freedom.
"And that is how it's supposed to work. If they don't like it, if you don't like it, move to Cuba. Or Zimbabwe"
No its not, as I just explained. How you explaiend it is how it works more in Cuba and Zambabwe.
"(Anyone notice that DWB's initials comprise all the consonants you need to spell "dweeb?" Yeah, I'm being childish, but godawful games like DL bring out my inner immaturity. I feel like sticking out my tongue and saying "Bleah!")"
Yes, of course. What you judge to be a godawful game is the only thing that counts. |
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Sat May 28, 2005 10:36 pm |
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