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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
All in all, that honest, realistic rundown of Shadowbane that i just got finished reading on MMORPGdot is disheartening. The developers of Shadowbane seem to be lax, or too relaxed, or whatever, because they havent made much progress with the gameplay which -- as i experienced in late SB beta -- was lacking in certain important areas.
Also, i have been looking forward to Darkfall, Trials of Ascension, and Dragon Empires, but finding that Shadowbane as a PvP game is plagued by RPKs (Random Player Killers) is extremely disheartening.
Will all the other PvP games be like that? Where is the role-playing? Have all the real role-players vanished into non-MMO games like Morrowind and Neverwinter Nights? The state of this game (Shadowbane) bodes badly for all future PvP games.
Shadowbane is, to my eyes, an utter failure in regards to the community. Griefers, punks, and RPKs go against EVERYTHING that could be good about PvP. They ruin it for me. If Darkfall, ToA, and DE are like that, im giving up on PvP MMOs for good. WHY THE HELL DO ALL THESE PEOPLE RUIN THE GAMEPLAY OF OTHERS AT GAMEPLAY'S EXPENSE?
Random Player Killer situation:
I dream about Darkfall. I want to be a farmer out in the middle of nowhere. I want to have the freedom to defend my lands from any intrusion, be it player or monster. I want to build me a modest cabin and plant grains and adventure in the area. I want a place to call Home. I would willingly greet anyone that comes along, and speak to them about what its like on my small land, farming and adventuring around here, JUST LIKE REAL PEOPLE WOULD DO. If either of us get mad at one another, then its within reason to fight. But i DONT WANT TO FIGHT if it isnt necessary and within roleplaying reasons. I would respect the fight if it was honorable. But if the other player turns out to be a royal prick, he will attack me, and that GOES AGAINST ALL REASON. People in the real world dont run around all chaotic-like and kill everyone they meet. Thats freaking stupid that these idiot kids are even allowed into these games. If this person is a Random Player Killer. That RUINS THE ENTIRE atmosphere of roleplaying.
So the asshole kills me for no reason, leaving me frustrated and outraged. I dont know if i even want to play these games anymore. The RPK is some honorless and brainless prick that runs around like a freakin idiot slaying everybody he sees. Worse yet, the bastard has a bunch of friends -- and all of them are bastards (RPKs) as well -- which means that i, alone on my land minding my own business, would have no freakin chance against them to defend myself. So what is the point? Nobody roleplays anymore. Whats the freakin point. |
Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:59 am |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
Dont mind me, im just venting here. I will, in all probability, adapt my playstyle to these crappy PvP problems and make myself a bountyhunter against them. Seriously, it STINKS when nice-guy versus prick-head is extended into a computer game. I play to computer games to avoid those annoyances of life. Players ruin it for themselves. I really dont like how other players act. Maybe i should just forget about MMOs entirely...
EDIT -- somebody please tell me it isnt going to be this bad.
EDIT #2 -- i just found my answer from the Darkfall website:
quote:
Aren’t you worried that out of control random player killers will ruin the game?
No. Being a random player killer of evil alignment is definitely possible, but also an extremely hard career. You will have enemies everywhere, and will have a hard time finding a safe city to trade in. You have the freedom to play such a character, but there’s also accountability for the choices you make.
phew. i was almost having a heart attack. note to self: chill. |
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Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:08 am |
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Kiff
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Indiana |
I hope there are some RPK'ers out there. I'll need something to do, someone to hunt. I don't kill innocents, but I like to kill people, so I hope there will be prey for me. |
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Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:29 pm |
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Ican
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 185
Location: UK |
I'm sorry to disappoint you Ammon, but MMROPGs these full days are full of a******s and in my opinion it won't get better.
I've been playing MMROPGS now for almost 10 yrs, and increasingly the trend has been for more and more of these games to be infested by sociopathic adolescents eager to take out their real life grievances on people online. They see themselves as cyber-anarchists .... living for the "thrill" of destroying a game and its defenseless "carebears".
I really just do not see it changing. Yes ... there are many DECENT players still, but no protection is offered from the developers of these games.
I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that I will be eternally disappointed by MMROPGS now. |
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Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:52 pm |
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Hagen
Counselor of the King
Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 350
Location: England |
quote:
Originally posted by Ican
I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that I will be eternally disappointed by MMROPGS now.
its an awful shame  but i agree
_________________
"There are many questions which fools can ask that wise men cannot answer."
--George Polya (1887-1985) |
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Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:25 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Ican
They see themselves as cyber-anarchists .... living for the "thrill" of destroying a game and its defenseless "carebears".
What a beautiful line. Hope you don't mind me quoting you on that in the future. 
_________________
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Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:31 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
Sometimes i get overly negative, like yesterday. Well today (as with most days) i have a more positive outlook. Sure, there are jerks out there, but i just handle it by considering them being nothing more than monsters that i would usually just kill for xp. They become enemies -- and thats as it should be, because they really are our enemies. So i gravitate towards the groups of people that are decent, who are willing to be friends, and with them i declare war on our enemies. Not too shabby. Now i know some of them will grief me. So what. Ive been griefed before. But i have also chosen, out of all the myriad MMO games about to hit the market, i have chosen the games wherein i will NOT be defenseless, where i will have the POWER to avenge myself and friends. I will look at the "anarchists" as though they are intelligent NPC enemies.
As with any society, there are enemies of that society -- even online. You find them at school, at universities, at parties, at sports games, at work, everywhere, as well as online! I play BF1942 online everyday for the last years and i must say at least 10% of them are griefers (team-killers) and stupid children. However, i have found that the other 90% are legitimately mature people that love to play the game within its design. The same goes for MMOs. I found many people in DAOC were ignorant snobs, but at the same time i knew many that were nice. Its a society, and that inherently includes all the negative aspects as well as the positive.
I completely agree that developers have made mistakes that opened up a can of worms in previous games, but things are changing. I highly doubt that excellently planned PvP games like Dragon Empires will fail. Already there are evil clans, but equally there are good clans that have vowed to fight the evil clans, and thats just really cool. I welcome evil people to the game, not quit the game because of them. If they want to be enemies, let them. Bring it on, baby!  |
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Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:49 pm |
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Ican
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 185
Location: UK |
"I completely agree that developers have made mistakes that opened up a can of worms in previous games, but things are changing. I highly doubt that excellently planned PvP games like Dragon Empires will fail"
I do so hope you are right ....but experience tells me that this is probably a pipedream. We can but live in hope however 
And, I've never had anyone want to quote me before, but be my guest Moondragon |
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Thu Oct 23, 2003 9:13 pm |
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Kurgan
Village Dweller
Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 2
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I realize this thread is a bit old... but i'm new to this forum and it is on teh front page and all... besides, there is so much whine here i just HAD to post my two cents.
I really don't understand the hatred for 'RPKs', especially in a game like Shadowbane which is marketed as being 'Massively Merciless'
I know that there are many different types of gamers with different playstyles, but if one is going to play a game with open PVP like Shadowbane then you must prepare yoruself for PVP conflict.
Even with all the bugs in this game I love it for the simple fact that *I* am allowed to decide how I want to play at any given moment. I don't know any other game out there that will let me do that. What I love about SB is that if someoone makes me angry, I can kill him. Sure there may be reprecussions but that's cool with me. I bought the game for teh PVP and city building and I like both of those aspects immensely.
When I first started playing Shadowbane I got accepted into a carebear guild at level 20. I must say the experience definately shaped my outlook on pk's. For a long time I hated them. After a while, continuously rolling new toons got very old... I mean, what is the point of making toons in a pvp game if you arent going to use them? Boredom coupled with our town getting rolled often prompted me to start regularly visiting the trees of the PK guilds that messed with us.
This went on for a while until the PK guilds I was camping started inviting me to go out on PK runs with them. It only took one time to realize what I had been missing out on. Player Killing is the essence of Shadowbane. It is the culmination of all of the leveling, farming and running around buying gear. It is the reason for everything you do in that game. Wether you like to be a more politically based PVP'er or an RPK it doesnt matter, the end result is the same.
I have many different characters, all of which have their own personality. I have some who are carebears(who like to fight). Some of my toons are errant PK's. I play a couple thieves as well. Some toons I have are errants but dont kill anyone but enemies. Some are Guild Leaders of PVP oriented good guy guilds. Shadowbane has it all. wether you like to level, farm or fight Shadowbane kicks butt. If you find yoruself getting rolled too often, then you are probably in the wrong guild. Any guild worth its salt will swiftly retalliate against any violence.
Last night was a good example. 4 of us lowbies were exping out in the desert last night when two errant(non-guilded) level 50+ came up on track and attacked us. I killed one of them as they were beating on my friend and the other one was also dispatched. As we were fighting them a group of pk's rolled through and killed us. We quickly logged on high level toons, put together a war party and went out, caught them and slaughtered them mercilessly!!!
What is more fun than that? What is better than a game where if someone steals your loot, talks a lot of shit or steal a camp or anything else you get to handle it yourself? How many of you have been in a game with some total jerkoff who has no respect for anything, yet you can do nothing about it because there is no open pvp? Well, in Shadowbane you wont find that past newbie island because there will be hell for that person to pay.
True, if you dont like PVP then SB probably isn't for you. But if you aren't satisfied with endless leveling just so you can kill meaner monsters then Shadowbane is definately worth checking out.
You can be anyone you want to be in that game, Good or Evil is up to you. |
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Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:00 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
I totally agree with you now. Player-versus-player conflict creates CONTENT in itself. Player made content is the RESULT of well-designed PvP. I play the good guy always but that means i need enemies. So i am glad when some other player wants to play as evil, because that way i have an enemy i can go kill. And just because im a good guy doesnt mean i cant go out and kill some baddies.
NPCs will never surpass the excitement and intelligence of playing on a team of real people against another team of real people. No way that will happen within the next 100 years, mark my words, i am not kidding, human-level artificial intelligence is just not going to happen very soon at all (i researched A.I. in college). anyway, thats beside the point.
I havent played Shadowbane for the only reason that i cant stand the graphics. Otherwise i would be playing with you. So im still waiting for Darkfall, Dragon Empires, and Trials of Ascension to come out. I think the soonest one will be Dragon Empires, unless Darkfall beta starts in a few months.
All in all, im very excited. |
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Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:57 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
Also, i know what im saying and hoping for is NOT some pipe-dream. If half (merely half) of what is promised comes to pass in DE or Darkfall, then i will be a happy camper.
I know the future is looking very good for the PvE player (which it will be, get ur head out of ur arse if you dont agree, and pick the good games from the bad ones). At the same time, the future looks excellent for PvP. 2004 is going to be the best PvP year ever.
And i am just like Kurgan -- i want freedom to retaliate if i am wronged. I also want land ownership and clan versus clan action. I want the freedom to kill whoever pisses me off and take his gear. Its freedom that will make Darkfall great, and i cant wait for it.
Too many times i have been playing a PvE game (like AC1) and was griefed, but unable to do anything about it because there was NO accountability built into the system. Thieves in AC got away with everything, and nobody could do anything about it. Well the upcoming PvP games have the only solutions against griefers, which is alignments and freedom to retaliate. |
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Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:09 pm |
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Kurgan
Village Dweller
Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 2
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I havent heard about these pvp games you are talking about so I guess I need to check them out ASAP.
As far as Shadowbane graphics go, did you actually play the game at all? I went to Shadowbane from EQ, so when I first started playing I thought the graphics sucked as well. But now I've been playing for so long that when I think of an online person i envision a Shadowbane character off the bat. Ive noticed that in every graphics based game I play tho... the more I play it the more normal it becomes to me.
As far as PVE goes, after playing Shadowbane I just don't think I could do it again. I started online gaming about 14 years ago on WWIV and MajorBBS with games like Galactic Empire, Forbidden Lands, Infinity Complex, War of teh Worlds, Tradewars2000 etc... I went from there to FPS like Q2WF, Q3WFA, CS, WOLFENSTEIN and games such as those... I also played alot of Diablo2, Warcraft 3, Everquest, Anarchy Online and also many single player games like Wizardry 8, Age of Empires, D&D games, Gothic, Morrowind, etc ad nausuem.
Now when I try to play some of the games I used to enjoy I quickly find myself returning to Shadowbane. PVE no longer holds any appeal for me knowing I wont be able to test my skills against other players. Heck, nowadays even the leveling in Shadowbane drives me crazy cause I can't wait to test my newest character in combat.
I know not everyone shares my enthusiasm for PvP conflict, surprisingly there is even a lot of that attitude within Shadowbane. It is true that many people overdo it and are jerks about things, griefing low levels and what not. At the same time, it's knowing that I will be at their tree killing people as they log on or recall back to town later that brings me comfort as I am paying repair costs. |
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Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:14 am |
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Ozymandias
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 319
Location: Otherland |
First I would like to welcome you to these boards.
quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Last night was a good example. 4 of us lowbies were exping out in the desert last night when two errant(non-guilded) level 50+ came up on track and attacked us. I killed one of them as they were beating on my friend and the other one was also dispatched. As we were fighting them a group of pk's rolled through and killed us. We quickly logged on high level toons, put together a war party and went out, caught them and slaughtered them mercilessly!!!
What is more fun than that?
This is the cyber version of a sandbox argument:
- If you hit me I'll get my big brother.
- Oh yeah? Then I'll get my dad...
I don't know how stuff works out in Shadowbane but in any decent pvp game there should be repercussions for unprovoked pk and thus your high lvl toons should be flagged as criminals/outlaws along with those who attacked you.
Furthermore this is pretty much the reason I think you should only be allowed one toon/server in a pvp game.
quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
What is better than a game where if someone steals your loot, talks a lot of shit or steal a camp or anything else you get to handle it yourself? How many of you have been in a game with some total jerkoff who has no respect for anything, yet you can do nothing about it because there is no open pvp? Well, in Shadowbane you wont find that past newbie island because there will be hell for that person to pay.
I agree with you on this. Unless of course if the total jerkoff comes back with a higher level toon.
_________________
"There is no way around it. Correct is correct. I am correct, therefore I win."
Roqua
Disclaimer: I can not be held responsible for anything whatsoever as a result of you reading this post. |
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Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:02 am |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
Well i am going to be playing those three PvP games, being Darkfall, Trials of Ascension, and Dragon Empires, because they have systems which make being a griefer/prick VERY difficult. Like i have already said, there ARE repercusions in all of those games in the form of alignment ranking systems. If it was not so, i wouldnt play them.
I seriously suggest that you research those games before deciding against them or thinking they are just like any previous MMOs. That is false. They are a completely new breed that has benefited and evolved out of everthing in the past.
Darkfall is freedom. However, that doesnt mean they wont be accountable. Because in each of those three games, accountability is enforced by both game mechanics and player rulesets. These developers have it together. Those games are going to rock. Shadowbane is gonna look like crap comparatively. Actually it already does.
Kurgan, i highly suggest you check out those three. You will thank me for it.
You might also wanna check out Realms of Torment, you might like that one too. |
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Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:36 am |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
quote:
Originally posted by Ozymandias
I don't know how stuff works out in Shadowbane but in any decent pvp game there should be repercussions for unprovoked pk and thus your high lvl toons should be flagged as criminals/outlaws along with those who attacked you.
Darkfall has all of that. Its an alignment system, and also a player-run system that makes unprovoked PKing a serious crime. It will be easy to be evil aligned, and harder to be good alignment. EDIT -- also, in Darkfall all of your characters have the same last name, so everyone will know who you are.
In Darkfall (which focuses on clan-versus-clan warfare with LAND OWNERSHIP), if you walk into a town and start killing anyone and everyone at random, expect to be: 1) killed by the guards, 2) banned from the town by the players, and 3) hunted down through tracking skills by the clan of your victim and/or bountyhunters if you have a price on your head, and 4) ur alignment drops to Evil, and you cant go into Neutral or Good-aligned towns anymore to buy/sell/train without being attacked by everyone (including npc guards) that has more respectable alignments. In short, in those three games, whatever you do, you must face the consequences. You can do almost anything, but still you will be accountable before other players. Thats the Darkfall system. I cant wait to play it and be part of real-life player politics, just like in Shadowbane. It is open PvP with controls.
However, if your clan declares official war on another clan, it is legal to attack an opposing clan member without any alignment repurcussions at all, since its war. Darkfall is based on clan versus clan, town versus town, ect... |
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Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:49 am |
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