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Saruman1964
Head Merchant
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 55
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| Bug affecting all dragons ... (spoiler) |
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I think PB has to fix the Dragons AI (all six of them). It is estremely easy to kill them with a ranged weapon like an x-bow.
After you have spoken to them just run away, the dragons will not pursuit. Reach a safe distance and start throwing bolts: if you are enough far they will not strike back nor advance toward you, just grunting from time to time when bolts hit them until they die...
Saruman |
Wed Aug 06, 2003 1:19 pm |
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kugraw
City Guard
Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 147
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I'ts not a bug. The dragons are just not as powerful as they should. Most players including me were disapointed how easy it was to kill the dragons.
Kay |
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Wed Aug 06, 2003 4:00 pm |
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mythicdude
City Guard
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 135
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this is what i did from the begining, so it's not so... secret |
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Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:31 pm |
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Xerxes712
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Nov 2002
Posts: 605
Location: Uber die Welt |
 Good. Please post how to make the Dragon tougher. I have a MOD Discussion Thread just for this type of stuff. Wimp monsters and exploits. I made the Seeker a real tough dude throwing Fireballs at you.
How would you like or think the Dragons should be changed? Right now I can do bassic stats such as Health points, Strength, dexterity, level, and armor -for weapons, arrows, fire, and magic protection.
If I made them immune to arrows, would that unbalance the game? It seems they are too stupid to run after you? Change their Senses Range and type if I can find the data in the compiled script. So they can come after you.
The one guard at the front gate Khorinis at the beginning you can walk right around him to the right and walk right into town! His Senses are set for See the Target by sight and only for in front of him, his Senses Range needs to be adjusted also.
Would that allow the Dragons to come after you sniping from a distance? If they are not too big to chase you down....only an idea.
_________________
Wo ist mein Sumpfkraut? |
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Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:45 pm |
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Blacklotus
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 Aug 2003
Posts: 13
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quote:
Originally posted by kugraw
I'ts not a bug. The dragons are just not as powerful as they should. Most players including me were disapointed how easy it was to kill the dragons.
Kay
Agree with the AI issue, not only with dragons, but with most enemies you find... many challenging situations are extremely easily solved thanks to poor AI & ranged weapons.
Regarding the dragons being so easy to kill...well, it's supposed they're that weak for the hero because he wears the Eye of Innos, otherwise it's simply impossible to kill them (as it should be). Try to kill one without wearing the amulet...you won't be able to take a single HP from him.. |
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Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:54 pm |
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Saruman1964
Head Merchant
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 55
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quote:
Originally posted by Xerxes712
...
Good. Please post how to make the Dragon tougher. I have a MOD Discussion Thread just for this type of stuff. Wimp monsters and exploits. I made the Seeker a real tough dude throwing Fireballs at you.
How would you like or think the Dragons should be changed? Right now I can do bassic stats such as Health points, Strength, dexterity, level, and armor -for weapons, arrows, fire, and magic protection.
...
Some suggestions:
1) Dragons are big and tough (or at least they appear so  therefore their skin should be so strong to act as an armor --> make arrows bounce back (just like the hero with the heavy paladin armor ... love to hear that ping/ping or arrows deflected) and make bolts hit but with a reduced damage
2) If under attack by ranged weapons, Dragons should always move toward the attacker to force him to switch to melee or retreat.
3) Each dragon should be slighly different so increase the challenge: for example, the Ice dragon could use instead of fire (just like the ice golems) to block the attacker. The rock dragon being very resistant -you will need a blunt weapon-, the fire dragon breathing *a lot* of fire, just leave the swamp dragon as it is (it should be the easier anyway since you get help).
4) The last (undead) dragon: being the end-of-level-boss should offer some serious challenge... One thing could be the fact he can summon helpers: undead creatures like skeletons, zombies, etc...
Cheers,
Saruman |
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Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:55 am |
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Heerschap
Village Dweller
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 10
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[quote="Blacklotus"]
quote:
Originally posted by kugraw
Regarding the dragons being so easy to kill...well, it's supposed they're that weak for the hero because he wears the Eye of Innos, otherwise it's simply impossible to kill them (as it should be). Try to kill one without wearing the amulet...you won't be able to take a single HP from him..
You don't need to wear the Eye during actual combat. Once you've talked to them wearing a charged Eye of Innos, the Eye becomes a worthless trinket and the dragon vulnerable. I usually run away after our little chat, switch the Eye for another nice combat amulet and then happily go slaughter that dragon. |
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Thu Aug 07, 2003 12:55 pm |
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|comy|
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 42
Location: Slovenia |
You probably know of this, but I'm going to tell it anyway :
When you come to the castle its sorrunded by orcs and the only way to enter the castel is that ramp witch leads up. Imagine this : you take a walk around the castle and there are 20 orcs behind you, then you come to the ramp and STEP on it ( you are 10 cm away of the orcs ) but the orcs wont attack you. The hight is almost the same and they would only have to streach their hand to hit you but they react as if you are out of sight. Then they put their weapons away, walk 5meters away and then NOTICE you ( omg ) and run back to the same spot they were before but CAN'T reach you, in this point you just have to smack them while they "can't" hit back. It takes just time and patience to take them all out even with a weaker hero. Huge bug...
_________________
now as the lights go down
deeper now it seems than long before
there are no noises here
just a silence gone bad
something I will never hide
this urging need to
invite the darkside in
into my haven |
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Thu Aug 07, 2003 1:36 pm |
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Blacklotus
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 Aug 2003
Posts: 13
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quote:
Originally posted by |comy|
You probably know of this, but I'm going to tell it anyway :
When you come to the castle its sorrunded by orcs and the only way to enter the castel is that ramp witch leads up. Imagine this : you take a walk around the castle and there are 20 orcs behind you, then you come to the ramp and STEP on it ( you are 10 cm away of the orcs ) but the orcs wont attack you.
yep...true, made a nice amount of xp doing this trick, again, another proof of the poor AI :/
Also, if you're playing the palading for example and have already become one of them, after you've cleaned out the orcs close to the ramp, you can use the holy arrow to clear the rest of the surrounding area by just hit&running a couple of times per each group thanks again to poor AI and holy arrow's huge range & accuracy.
Too easy in my opinion considering you're supposed to believe that a good amount of paladins & militia men are in the castle starving scared of the orcs.
Anyhow...don't take me wrong, I've enjoyed every single minute of playing of this game and just can't wait for the english add-on to come out 
Along with Baldur's Gate series, I think this is the best crpg game ever made |
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Thu Aug 07, 2003 3:12 pm |
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Blacklotus
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 Aug 2003
Posts: 13
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[quote="Heerschap]You don't need to wear the Eye during actual combat. Once you've talked to them wearing a charged Eye of Innos, the Eye becomes a worthless trinket and the dragon vulnerable. I usually run away after our little chat, switch the Eye for another nice combat amulet and then happily go slaughter that dragon.[/quote]
darn...you're right, I did not realize of it  ... this renders the amulet pretty useless....guess to make more believeable the dragon weakness it should uncharge after you kill the him not after talking ... |
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Thu Aug 07, 2003 3:21 pm |
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Xerxes712
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Nov 2002
Posts: 605
Location: Uber die Welt |
Well, making each dragon generally harder per dragon in sequence is good and can be done. Increase thier arrow armor up and up (even immune ALMOST or Completely for Stone Dragon), all get more and more health points, strength, armor protection in general. 
When I find where the 'weapon-magic' attack data is stored for Dragons, like I changed Seekers weapon from 'Fire arrow' to more powerful "Fireball', I can make the Ice Dragon to cast whatever you said Ice Block? Only the Fire Dragon should cast fire based attack and make it real nasty. Spells damage can be changed in basic stats. It is alot of work to hunt down the compiled data by trial and error! But it can be done with alot of patience. 
How about give the Swampweed Dragon Windfist also? In G1 the Sect Camp used those spells. You get blown back and take Fly damage, helps to keep you out of melee range and dragon can still hit you with his ranged attack.
The monsters Senses type is by sight, smell, or hearing and it has a Senses Range. Maybe by changing the Range to longer and senses to smell, the Dragon will come at you. It must be hard coded since the changing in Marivn Mode will revert back into original instantly.
Could just lower the range for the big Dragon Hunter crossbows and bows, the bigger they hit, the less range distance; but then you must be close enough for dragon to attack, not really the best solution. I want to try the other first.
Orcs not attacking is due to the path finding routine in regards to height. It really does not know how to do this well. There are parameters in the Orc.MDS movement controls to change how high they can jump, run, etc. Could fix that. Watch how high them Orcs jump now!
I could throw in a few Orc Shamans to attack you instead of all Orc warriors to hit you with ranged magic so standing there will get you killed by thier ranged magic attack. Via I can substitute for some Orc_239_Castle to OrcSham_239_Castle indentifier. All monsters and moving things have an unique identifier to create and place them in game.
The Undead Dragon can be beefed up and also given a secondary magic Summoning attack like the Skeleton Mage to Summon hordes of Skeletons.
Maybe change its main attack to Breath of Death (in game cheat Death bolt Rune used by some named mage NPCs that you have no access to) to kill you almost instantly (modify the Eye of Innos to give you a higher magic protection to help you kill the Undead Dragon instead of the Eye of Innos being worthless). After all, it is the end of the game and you are almost undefeatable.
Thanks for information on feedback in what ways it would help to make the Dragons more of a challenge for the hardcore players (isn't that all of us?) more of challenge for G2Hard MOD. Gee, too hard (I got killed  ) MOD.
I hope I can find all this stuff by US release and patch, and with a patch coming out, the final will not be done since patch will change data and there is going to be two versions of the game the UK and the 'improved' US versions. I wish I knew what buglets they are going to fix. I must make these changes harmonious with the patch changes.
_________________
Wo ist mein Sumpfkraut? |
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Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:47 pm |
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Xerxes712
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Nov 2002
Posts: 605
Location: Uber die Welt |
@Blacklotus
***Regarding the dragons being so easy to kill...well, it's supposed they're that weak for the hero because he wears the Eye of Innos, otherwise it's simply impossible to kill them (as it should be). Try to kill one without wearing the amulet...you won't be able to take a single HP from him..***
Yes that is right. They are flaged as Flag = 2 which means they are immortal until you use the Eye of Innos to allow the game to change the Flag=0 so that they can be injured on killed.
That is all the benefit you get from the Eye of Innos is to trigger the flag change. So take it of and wear a better combat Amulet after talking to Dragon to make them not immortal.
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Wo ist mein Sumpfkraut? |
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Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:12 am |
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Xerxes712
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Nov 2002
Posts: 605
Location: Uber die Welt |
@Sharum1964
I found where the dragons perception (Senses Range) is stored. It is set at 3500. I changed to 3500 + 4096 =7596. I need to test this and see if the dragons will now chase you down if you are sniping from a distance.
They have Sense 7 which I think maybe smell. If it sight, then they will only see you in front of them, smell is everywhere. ALOT of the main monsters like Orc have this easy to change, they also have 'attack range' to adjust also. Dragon attack range is 700. I think that is how close to you dragon must be to hit you?
I will tell you with some test. If it works, them dragons (and other thing like Orcs if you wish) will sense you there and come chase you down. All ranged weapons in game are almost infinite in reach.
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Wo ist mein Sumpfkraut? |
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Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:18 am |
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Whailor
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 423
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
Regarding the dragons:
I do not think that making the Stone Dragon vulnerable to blunt damage only is a good idea, considering that there are NO good or useful blunt weapons in the game, almost. Only useful one is "heavy war hammer" and even that isn't anything that special, although could do the trick. Rest are just too weak..
Increasing the sense range of the dragon could help with their AI, make them attack you, however you need to verify how this Sense range works. Is it like a sphere, where the dragon is in the center? Then you need to be sure, that the range isn't so big that you accidentally trigger the dragon by walking past the volcano or swamp.
Also the pathing, dragon is bloody big thing. Take the Fire dragon - it may 'sense' you in that passage leading to it, and make it come after you, thus it can effectively get stuck in the passage. If you happen to kill the dragon in the passage and it falls INTO the mountain, you will be unable to loot it. Every mob has this "centre point", so to say, which allows you to target it. If you see that 'point', then you can hit it with the spells and ranged weapons. Ever wondered, why you see almost half the orc over the hill, but you just cannot shoot it from ranged weapon or with a spell yet? That's because that 'point' is still out of sight. Also, when the corpse falls into geometry of another object and that 'point' becomes covered, you will never be able to target that mob to loot it.
Also, if the dragon sense range is too big, it creates discussion problems. For example: you run to Fire dragon. Suddenly, half way to the top your char stops, faces the wall, and freezes there. Then suddenly he speaks to no one, but you cannot see anyone, hear their text, nothing. Eventually the talk is over, and you didn't even see or hear a single word and never saw the char you spoke with. Next thing, the dragon is in attack mode and tries to reach you and may get stuck, or accidentally fall off the volcano (yes, fall off) and die to it. You reach the top and bummer, no dragon. There can also be a chance that the dragon will speak to you over such a long distance, because it sensed you, but your char cannot speak back because he cannot sense the dragon. Stuck in the game (possibility).
Reducing the damage on ranged weapons is not a good idea. Rather add armor to the mobs against the ranged damage, but definately NOT make them immune. At least not to the crossbow, as crossbow is a very powerful weapon and would do some damage anyway. Also, there are people who like to play with ranged weapons, rendering the ranged weapons useless makes the game of such people pretty pointless.
Basically the AI of the mobs should be tweaked, but there are limits as to how it can be done. It's not an easy thing, anyway. |
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Sun Aug 10, 2003 10:17 am |
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Xerxes712
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Nov 2002
Posts: 605
Location: Uber die Welt |
I posted over in the MOD Discussion Thread about things just what you are speaking about. Sense Range does not work that well (undead dragon has a very short sense range curious), I did find a solution of a sort, range weapons will still work only if you are very good. I wanted and did stop the out right sniping and killing dragons without them fighting back. If you are close enough to even get a chance to hit them, they will hit you back with thier new and improved Large Fire ball in place of Fireball, Ball Lightning, Death ball, Ice Wave, etc. range attack, so you must keep moving.
All dragons can be killed by any guild or play style. You should always have at least one other form of secondary attack anyway, Sword or Arrow; Pure Magic or Pure Fire based. I can modify any weapon (maybe 2 h some) in game if it needs some tweaking. Blunt is more like edge type damage, your Heavy Ore Dragon Slayer Sword will work just fine,(protection array for armor is almost the same, except for Windfist Spell wich ignores all armor since it does FLY damage). That is how that magic Holy Hammer can kill a invulnerable golem since its damage type is tagged so that the golem has no armor protection against it.
I made four dragons and gave them each one a High resistance to one form of attack. So every one guild will find one dragon tougher than the other. I am keeping balance in mind. If you want to read my findings, it is in the MOD discussion thread at the end.
THX for comments on how and what things can go wrong. I am trying to do the smallest changest for maximum improvement (for Hard MOD) so not to introduce perception and triger, pathing problems you have eluded to.
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Wo ist mein Sumpfkraut? |
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Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:32 am |
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