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Kiff
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Indiana |
| I know...PvP has been talked out but... |
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What about levels in PvP too. Take EQ or DAoC. If you attack a creature that is white you get no exp and no loot. So why fight it? Make it the same in PvP. A level 10 can easily do in a level 3 but why? If the L3 is white to the L10 the L10 would get none of the loot on the body. Or even make it so if the character is too much lower then the aggressor the aggressor wont be able to even attack. Would that take care of greifing? Could also make it so the L10 couldn't even loot the body of the L3 if it died some other way. Cause I know in UO ppl whould set up two or three layers of walls so I couldn't run through them and the mob would kill me. Should also make it so if you or your group doesn't kill the person you won't get any loot. And if the L3 is white to anyone in the aggressing group no one would be able to loot it. But on the flip side of PvP you should be exp for killing another person. Take DAoC or EQ again. If a Blue player kills a purple or red or whatnot, the Blue whould get a very decent amount of exp and could loot the body.
Another intersting point from another post. Players playing as a monster in the game. Somebody said EQ tried it but it failed because ppl couldn't advance that type of character. Ok so if a player wants to play a monster they start as a rat or bat or snake right. Ok they spawn and can only move around in one area...the n00b area. Once they kill 5 players they can choose to advance to a new form of creature. And that new form of creature spawns in its own spot and can only adventure so far. And so the cycle goes...in time if a person is good enough they have advenced a new type of character. Also say that n00b area snake as killed 4 ppl...so it 5 challenge it is defeted...the player that killed it(the snake) could get a little more exp than normal. Possible? And for fear of loosing alot of time...a person playing a monster, if it advances to the 4th or 5th tier of monster development it could start to get a skill or so...because by the 5th monster tier it would be a great fear of loss...give it at least one chance to respan as it was, per monster level. Ehh well...we'll see. Because someone said it and they are right...your toughest player will always be another player. Ok ok, I'm done. |
Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:18 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
A lot of what you suggest (in the first paragraph) was already done in games like EQ. But personally I think the problem isnt balancing in the way that you suggest, the problem is the people who do not want to fight.
Personally I dont care if I die a few times and take serious losses if the gain from it is truly intelligent adversaries. But I know this is not the general oppinion.
The only way PvP will become a major part of a MMORPG (Excluding UO) is if someone can find a way to implement it into the story/world of the game in a way that the victims have no right to complain when they die.
I am not saying that they have no right to complain at the moment, I am just saying that all they see are "Greifers" when people PvP, no one seems to comprehend the possibility of someone playing a bad guy.
We need to find a way of placing evil players within the game world so they are justified and make the non-PvP's appreciate that they enhance the game world rather than detract from it.
The best idea I have heard so far is the one being discussed in another post about playing monsters.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:45 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
| Re: I know...PvP has been talked out but... |
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiff
Would that take care of greifing?
There's a lot of things in your post. First of all, there will always be griefing, whatever you do. There are players out there that are simply out to have fun at the expense of other players. Whatever you do, someone will always find a way to grief other players if that's really what they want to do.
If you say that a high level player gains no loot, or no XP, or no bonus points of any kind for killing players that are of a certain lower level than they are, they will still do it if griefing is their game. Once in DAoC I was out hunting Augs near Druim Cain, in the frontier, with a friend. We got spotted by a level 50 Albion mage of some kind. We were about level 35. Now, there was no zerg anywhere around, there was just us hunting horses, and that guy was alone, running around in enemy territory. He waited until we started to attack a horse before he hit one of us with a spell, a one shot kill. Then, he actually ran after me as I ran away!! He ran after me, even though kiling me (a grey to him) would only give him 1 measely realm point... When I got fed up and realised that he wouldn'T let up, I turned around and fought, but that was just a lost cause for me... He stood over my corpse, laughed, and ran off... My friend and I lost XP because the system took into account that we had been wounded from the horses first, and so our death wasn't considered a PvP death... 
The point of this is that even though the guy had no reason at all to kill us he still did. The only way to make that stop would be to make us unattackable to him, but then lower level people could find ways to grief higher levels, and high levels would find new ways to grief the smaller guys, I'm sure. There are so many ways to grief that it's scary to think about it. Even systems that are virtually griefer-friendly have their own griefers. Even non-pvp games have griefers, for crying out loud! 
The only viable solution is to ban griefers. But then again, how do you prove that they were really out to grief you in the first place? It just doesn't work...
As for playing as monsters, I think it's a great idea, which I already said in another post. And I think everyone aggreed that it would require some work because every nice ideas have loopholes. I think the best way to implement that, as I already mentioned in the other post, is make the mechanics of playing monsters much more akin to action games. Give points for each kills that they manage to pull off, and in time these points would open new playable monsters. A monster would have perma death, but there would be nothing stopping you from creating a new identical one as soon as you die, and go out hunting again. No monster advancement system there if you'd want advancement you would play a character instead. But higher level monsters would be much harder to kill, and so could yeild more kills for the player.
The only problem I see is regarding player population. There would be a major problem if either the monster, or the character populations would be low at any given time...
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:22 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
The only system that can serve to aleviate griefing is perma-death. When there is true meaning to the word revenge, then, and only then, will the griefers think twice before griefing.
But perma-death is not a good idea in the world of internet latency. Since nobody can predict if losing connection with the client is due to glitch in the internet routing or the person pulling the cable out of the wall to prevent death.
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:37 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
We really need to get away from this attitude of "Greifers need to be punished". There are better ways of making the game work than punishing other players because they dont play the way you want them to play.
Yes I understand that there are people who kill newbies for no reason, and there are ways around this. But always spouting things like "Perma Death" and "Stat loss for the PK's" just doesnt solve anything. It just ruins the game for people who want to play bad guys.
I beleive that these people have as much right to play the game as evil characters as you do good characters.
Yes I know I am going to get the "You are just a Greifer who wants to kill noobs" bla bla bla. (Apart from the fact that I dont do that) I dont remember the last time in a movie/book/game when a bad guy stopped and said, "Oh, sorry, my mistake, I didnt realize I was being TOO evil. Maybe I should go pick on someone my own size". Doesnt sound very evil to me.
I still stand by my oppinion that instead of stopping PK's we need to find a way to integrate them into the game in a way that makes most people happy. (Including the PK's. They have a right to play the games too).
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:45 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
I still stand by my oppinion that instead of stopping PK's we need to find a way to integrate them into the game in a way that makes most people happy. (Including the PK's. They have a right to play the games too).
I agree, and I'm not saying that banning players is the best solution. Because in truth griefers (real griefers) make for perhaps not more than 1% of the MMORPG player community in total!
But let's make a distinction. It's one thing to play an evil character. It's another thing to play to grief people. There is a way to play evil characters and remain decent. Kill all the players you want, I don't mind. But don'T go out of your way to kill someone just because it's fun to see them die and humiliate them. These are games, we're all out to have fun. But we live in the real world, and you can't take abstraction from that just because you want to play an evil character, as fun as it might be for you.
Saying that you're playing an evil character to justify the laughing and pointing and humiliating of another person is just as bad an excuse as the guy that says he was griefed for walking into the PvP zone and dying at your hand without expecting it... I agree that everyone has to be concious of what they're doing. By walking in that PvP zone I should anticipate death and being chased by other people that are out to get me. But there's no reason for that player to spit humiliating remarks at me after I'm dead. It just makes me never want to come back.
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:01 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
Yes the insulting is definately uncalled for, and the only time I have done it is in retaliation to a (justifiably) irrate player who just died at my hand.
I never deliberately seek out to kill a weak character, but on occassion if one did happen to cross my path in the woods then I sometimes killed them, or sometimes just scared the crap out of them. Hell, its what I do, I play evil Char's.
And yes, pretty much everyone has called me a greifer. But I considered myself a Gentleman PK. I would always assist people in UO to getting back to a shrine (Gating them), I would NEVER insult and ridicule someone I killed, and I would definately never just seek out and kill innocent noobs.
It isnt any fun doing that anyway. The most memorably and enjoyable experiences were when the blue guys came out with a hunting party and we had large scale battles in the woods.
I understand that there realy are true "Greifers" out there, but the majority of PK's are not like that at all. I played UO for months before I went evil, and I encountered many many PK's which did not kill me simply because I was a noob. In fact, a lot of them helped me and became good friends.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm |
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vaticide
Put food in here
Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 1122
Location: One step behind a toddler bent on destruction. |
One quick note, I'll try and make a more comprehensive post later- harsh punishments for murderers when they die (stat loss, etc) will only make them more likely to go after easier prey, i.e. neophyte players.
-vaticide |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:41 pm |
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Kiff
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Indiana |
But how do we implament them? Guilds don't work. Realm vs. Realm doesn't work, at least it was close. Plus neither of those really give you a freedom of pking. A few upcoming games say they will implament "Consensual " PvP...duh thats just a difficult way of spelling Duel.
I'm lost when you speak of implamenting it another way. What other way do you suggest? |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:49 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
Two games come to mind that have a handle on this. One is Darkfall, where the griefers are handled by local law authority (other players) as well as by an alignment system that discourages evil activity. Say what you will, but controlling evil playstyles is a good idea. It makes griefers think twice. The other is Dragon Empires, where PvP is integrated as a vital element into the gameplay. DE has about 5 styles of play, one of which doesnt even include PvP, but the other 4 are PvP: i.e. outlaws (without the negative connotation here), bounty-hunters, traders, and city defenders. The outlaws are integral to the game because they are open to attack for traders, city defenders, and bounty-hunters. Outlaws become outlaws by killing certain venerated creatures which drop excellent loot. And the best part of it is that the player is only one of those roles for a short time, after which they switch to the default role which is not even open to PvP, and also that the player can be a good citizen in his home region and at the same time an outlaw in the neighboring regions. DE really has a good system. And as for griefers, Ekim is right, they will always exist, no matter what developers do. Many people are jerks as soon as they reach age ten. Thats why society has laws to counteract them. Online games MUST have laws to counteract them as well. Thats reality.  |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:55 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
But you are still failing to differentiate between a "Greifer" and some who just roleplays an Evil guy.
You have no right to stop people from role playing evil people if they wish, in the same way as "Griefers" have no right to kill noobs for no reason.
Who says your oppinion is right and Evil players should be stopped?
I have as much right to play Evil characters as you have to play Good Characters. We need to find a way to co-exist and not breed prejudice by spouting Anti-PK intollerence.
_________________
IMHO my opinion is humble
Last edited by Chekote on Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:07 pm |
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Kiff
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Indiana |
Thats what DE says, and thats whay they and you and me hope will happen. But comon Ammon your always telling me not to get caught in the hype. It's easier for a developer to type a line than it is for them to type that line of code.  How can this be so difficult...six years now and no game has a good solution. Hardly anyone has even come close. But you'r right at age 10 a person develops that uncanny abilty to be a total jerk. Chekote - it would be nice to develop the game with implamented PvP, PvP is cool and fun and gives bragging rights but I guess we can't implement greifing into a game.
Or could we... |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:08 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
It needs to be implemented so that it isnt "Greifing"
_________________
IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:11 pm |
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vaticide
Put food in here
Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 1122
Location: One step behind a toddler bent on destruction. |
I think people are forgetting that griefing occurs even in games without PvP. I think I experienced more grief from other players in EQ from things like trains, killstealing, etc. Those are the things that need to be dealt with in both PvP and non-PvP games. I think PvP related griefing is a tiny subset of the problem. There also seems to be some confusion as to what griefing is compared to just being killed by another player. Just because you are killed doesn't mean the other player did anything wrong. I'm with Chekote on this one- you have to give players room to be evil.
-vaticide |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:26 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
But you are still failing to differentiate between a "Greifer" and some who just roleplays an Evil guy.
I don't think that the differentiation is very clear, and that's why it's so difficult to really prove that someone is griefing... And, I might add, that 1% of players who are real griefers often come up with the excuse of saying that they are role-playing an evil character, so it becomes even harder to spot. As I already pointed out, real griefers are usually those that openly enjoy preying on other, weaker people (unlike you that obviously respect your opponent, as evil as you might be in-game). And real griefers usually like to gloat over the people they kill, humiliate them for all they are worth. So the distinction is very, very hard to make...
quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
You have no right to stop people from role playing evil people if they wish, in the same way as "Griefers" have no right to kill noobs for no reason.
Agreed, and that's why banning is not really a solution, because 90% of those you'd ban would not be griefers. I know I said the only solution is to ban griefers, and I really, honestly believe that's the only way to truly discourage griefing. And now you see the paradox...  So forget banning... But, without stopping them, evil players still need to be held in check. And those who complain need to be slapped accross the back of the head a few times.
quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
Who says your oppinion is right and Evil players should be stopped?
I don't think anyone said evil players should be stopped. What I understand (and agree with to a certain extent) is that they need to be kept under control because of griefing. Face it: if you just let everyone be "evil", you open up a can of worms. You have to keep players under a certain kind of control, because if you decide to play evil characters then you decide to walk a very thin line between role-playing and griefing. And like players should be mindful of walking in PvP zones, you should be mindful of that when you decide to play an evil character.
quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
I have as much right to play Evil characters as you have to play Good Characters. We need to find a way to co-exist and not breed intollerence by spouting Anti-PK intollerence.
I have no argument with that. Evil characters add color and variety to any world! The problem is that as long as there will be some people that are out to make other people miserable, playing an evil character will have it's share of danger since some less tolerant players out there will call you a griefer... I'm not saying they are right to, but they will.
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:26 pm |
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