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| Do you accept same-sex marriage? |
| Anti - homosexual; sinful, unmoral & unnatural |
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27% |
[ 16 ] |
| ambivalent - undecided, unsure, mixed feelings |
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5% |
[ 3 ] |
| laissez-faire - noninterventionist, tolerant |
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27% |
[ 16 ] |
| Pro - deeply believe in freedom & equality |
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39% |
[ 23 ] |
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| Total Votes : 58 |
Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
Hexy said basically what I meant about the truth not being a universal concept.
Take 10 persons and let them watch an event and let them all swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth. If truth was truely universal then they would all say the same thing. My guess is that they don't.
What you see is interpreted by yourself and translated into your own personal truth. Your interpretation is based on many factors, amongst which are your upbringing, your social status, your morals, your education etc. etc.
_________________
Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
Why quote somebody else, think of something yourself. - XeroX
...you won't have to unbookmark this site, we'll unbookmark you. - Val
Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:15 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
Ammon, For the reasons you stated you should be for gay marraige. Believing in an afterlife and believing your actions in life have consequences means to me that life is a test. You make the right decisions and you pass, make the wrong ones and you fail. By limiting peoples actions or choices you limit their ability to make right or wrong decisions and therefore limit the test of life. If you force choices onto people without letting them make the choices for themselves, what kind of a test is that?
Yes, i totally agree with the above statement. I do believe that life is a test. I dont want to limit their (gays) free agency. That would be what the Enemy wants to happen -- the evil spirit would enslave us all and take away our freedom of choice. That is precisely why communism is looked upon by the west as being evil -- it takes away freedoms. But gays are infringing on OUR agency by trying to convince everyone that homosexuality is NOT a sin, and that it should be an acceptable lifestyle choice. That is one of the hallmark signatures of the Last Days. The stage is being set. The ancient prophecies concerning the Last Days are being fulfilled before our eyes. Christ is coming and this time he will be wearing a robe that is colored blood red, because this time he is coming for vengeance, not for mercy (like last time).
But i also believe in being tolerant of others, so i am tolerant: let them be gay if they want to be, its their life and their choice. They deserve to have the freedom for making choices as much as the rest of us, even if they are the wrong choices. But that doesnt mean there are no consequences. I just dont think it should be called a "marriage" when marriage has been traditionally instituted into society already as the male-female relationship of a nuclear family unit. My problem with them is that they are attempting to CHANGE the fundamental units of society. And, in my view, that is bad.
My point is this: the family unit has been desecrated. Divorce rates are staggering. Greed and malice is everywhere. This "gay marriage" thing just further damages the family unit by changing it into a unit of ultimate sexual liberality. Soon we will have 2 gay men and 2 gay women all wanting to say that they are married to each other, as gay polygamists. But when does it stop?
You have some moral problems though, Roqua. If you think that it doesnt matter what you do in this life, then you are decieved. It matters to other people what you do here, as well as to God. Even if there isnt a heaven or a hell, there is still other people that deserve love and respect.
piln: sorry about the "that person" comment, it was late last night and i was being lazy and didnt look up your name. |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:36 pm |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
quote:
Originally posted by piln
You're talking about US law ... right?
No. My Sanctum Sanctorum is free from the erroneous irons of confusion and obfuscation found in US law.
quote:
so I see no reason the christian faith (or any other) should claim it as their own exclusively.
Well, there is the entire issue of who got there first. The Church, along with every other culture has had "conventional" marriage called marriage for quite some time. By what authority will something that in its construction is fundamentally different claim that it owns just as much of the word. I hate to use this example, but because something’s here first, am I going to be shoved aside by someone else? And no, I will eat the examples of natives, because they, at least up here, legally sceded land in exchange for government protection. 
quote:
Seperation of church and state.
Excellent point, although the context is wrong... why can't the Church tell the State to butt out of its religious affairs? It has to be a two way street, the Church must be able to counter the State in some areas that are fundamentally its own, else the trite saying is a pointless fallacy. A civil union can be the same thing as marriage, but one is from the state and one is from the church and recognized the state.
quote:
Since this country was founded on judeo-christian values
I honestly thought that slavery and lack of women's rights were what founded America.
quote:
What other species of animals do this? Are their such a thing as gay dogs? Gay cats? Please enlighten me(scriptures from any religion or web-sites). I love being entertained.
Gay walruses, for one. They assume a whole new position for the act, too. I'd really rather not look it up, but I assure you that I speak truth.
quote:
Haven't laughed so much in ages. This has been a totally hillarious topic. Others have said what I would, thanks Charlie, so I won't bother, but keep it up, I enjoy an entertaining thread.
No gold star for me? 
quote:
The last sentence captures my thoughts about death. It all ends there. Nothing exists for me beyond that point.
@Myrthos...
Where does the flame go when the candle is blown out?
quote:
why must life after death be tied to a supernatural being?
Read what you said. In order for there to be something that governs and controls a hypothetical life-after-death, it will have to be pretty super - beyond just natural (!) - insomuch as in the way that it has power beyond any of our abilities that we know of.
_______
I'm not sensing a lot of enlightened, to-the-point arguing about the title of the thread going on... so the hat my be hung up with this one.
_________________
Make good choices. |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:54 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
piln: sorry about the "that person" comment, it was late last night and i was being lazy and didnt look up your name.
np, I was just kidding (in a miserable British kind of way  ). No offense taken.
quote:
Originally posted by Sauron38
My Sanctum Sanctorum is free from the erroneous irons of confusion and obfuscation found in US law.
Wow! That's an incredible sentence. If you don't mind, I might take a leaf out of Bigpapa's book and have it tatooed on my butt.
Joking aside... what did you mean by "...Law and law, in that order..." (at least I think it was in that order  )? |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:57 pm |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
@Sauron38
What a pointless question as the answer is right above it.
I wasn't aware though that the church owned the word marriage. Who owned it before there was a church? And how much did they offer for the word to be able to own it now? And how can you be sure that every institue in history who owned it, defined it in the way that represent the views of the church? And who will sue my government for taking the word from the church, because it does not recognise a marriage in church to be legal? Which is apparantly a fallacy.
All those questions. But then again, what do I care.
_________________
Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
Why quote somebody else, think of something yourself. - XeroX
...you won't have to unbookmark this site, we'll unbookmark you. - Val
Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:00 am |
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Drake14
Brigadier General
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Posts: 1310
Location: Around |
i think that if a guy wants to marry a guy or a woman want to marry a woman then thats their choice not the governments or the religions choice
_________________
Inhale Life, Exhale Pain
Navy, Accelerate your life |
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Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:07 am |
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Northchild
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 232
Location: New York, USA |
As a (maybe/maybe not) interesting sidenote and on the original topic - I'm bisexual, (ended up marrying hetero), and support marriage for gays. I don't feel that using the term "marriage" is an ideal solution because of ties to religion, (though I am Buddhist), but I also feel very strongly that long-term relationships between homosexuals in the US are given too little consideration as far as civil rights are concerned.
I love my wife with all of my being, and want to be with her through everything that life has to throw at us. If she were very badly hurt or had taken seriously ill, I would have greater opportunities to be with her in the hospital because we are *family*.
What if I had fallen in love with a man and had decided to spend the rest of my life with him - spending every day together and sharing all of the joy and pain that life has to offer? How much would it hurt if I wasn't able to be with him if he was seriously injured or even dying?
How much anger would I feel towards "Joe Male" demonstrating against equal rights a block away?
_________________
New to 3D? Check out www.3dbuzz.com today! |
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Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:09 am |
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jmurdock
Old Fogey
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 1285
Location: the heart of acadiana they like to call it |
There should be a legal union for those who are homosexual who intend to spend the rest of their lives together. I wish there were a simple solution.
@Sauron38
The laws man, the laws. We may have some nasties in our past, but who doesn't? Besides, they have been corrected long ago and do not bear repeating here.
_________________
Just watch out you don't stress yourself out.
REMEMBER... Many saves, many slots!!! |
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Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:19 am |
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Elverath
Village Leader
Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
Location: USA |
Hey Jmurdock I just realized we live in the same city! well actually I live about half an hour from houston but thats besides the point! freaky...
_________________
Hush little baby dont say a word
Mamas gonna buy you a mocking bird
If that mocking bird dont sing
Mamas gonna bury it the backyard
-Stans mom |
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Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:46 am |
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jmurdock
Old Fogey
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 1285
Location: the heart of acadiana they like to call it |
About the same distance, but who knows Seabrook? You know what I mean? So, is poohead from around here too?
_________________
Just watch out you don't stress yourself out.
REMEMBER... Many saves, many slots!!! |
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Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:02 am |
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mkreku
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 112
Location: Uppsala, Sweden |
quote:
Originally posted by kengo2019
What other species of animals do this? Are their such a thing as gay dogs? Gay cats? Please enlighten me(scriptures from any religion or web-sites). I love being entertained.
Actually most animals have sex with each other, totally uncaring for which gender their partner (of the moment) is. Haven't you ever seen a dog hump a leg? They do that to other male dogs, and cats and grandma's who have fallen and can't get up..
Chimpanzee's even have sex with their own offspring, and they use "tools" to masturbate, just like humans.
The weird thing is that this type of behaviour is very rarely shown on Discovery or Animal Planet. The fact that they leave this VERY common behaviour out disturbs me, because to me it shows some sort of underlying homophobia amongst the general public. They only show on TV what people want to see, and apparently too many people are disturbed by animals having "gay" sex.
I've never understood why people should care for what other people do in their bedrooms (unless it is hurting someone innocent). Why does it matter to anyone else, if two people are in love and happen to be of the same sex? Are we as humans defined by what kind of sex we have? Is our human value changed because we happen to like something that most other people don't like? To me it's completely insane that homosexuals don't have the same rights as everyone else all around the world. And I am sure having two fathers or two mothers (as a child) who love them is much, much better than living in an orphanage.
I usually lay the blame for the homophobia that's hidden in our socity on religion. The Bible is a 2000 year old fairy tale with equally old and outdated moral standings that has ruined the lives of millions since it was written. Ever notice how religious people happen to ignore the parts in the bible that would be a real chore to them (if your neighbour works during sabbath you have to kill him, 2:nd book of Moses 35:2, swedish edition), but happen to believe in the parts that affect other people (like homosexuality being wrong)?
_________________
Swedes visit NordicGamers for the latest game reviews in swedish! |
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Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:38 am |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
quote:
Originally posted by piln
Wow! That's an incredible sentence.
Irony, friend, irony.
quote:
Joking aside... what did you mean by "...Law and law, in that order..." (at least I think it was in that order )?
Referring to Biblical Law & laws of the land, which, in my town, are rather clear in their wordings.
@Myrthos
You can believe that our little candle ceases to be here... that is immediately obvious. But it's impossible to account for all places where that little flame could have gone, or if it did go at all. That novel possibility is what leaves the door open. Read into the question a little bit more.
If a magician makes the rabbit disappear... did the rabbit really disappear?
We're also comparing apples to oranges. Over here, the church does/did effectively own "marriage" as it was set out in some of the first marriage laws. However, such power is no longer guaranteed, because of precedents and erosion of Church law... and a legal grey area is entered.
quote:
Besides, they have been corrected long ago and do not bear repeating here.
I hate to say it, but all the ills may have been Constitutionally fixed... but practically and socially, there are still some huge effects from the Pre-Civil War period being felt down yonder, as I understand. But I actually copied the reply that I made from another guy at another forum in response to the same statement.
_________________
Make good choices. |
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Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:46 am |
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jmurdock
Old Fogey
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 1285
Location: the heart of acadiana they like to call it |
Yeah, but no longer legal. There is legal recourse for those problems that remain. And besides, if reparations should be requested should they not be asked of the people who captured and sold members of other tribes into slavery to begin with? 
As for the 'decendants' of the people who bought them (of which I am not one FYI), they fast becoming minority, so may be moot point in future.
Oh well, plenty of other problems exist from pre whatever days in whatever place. It'll take time, many will be corrected. Some won't. We do what we can.
_________________
Just watch out you don't stress yourself out.
REMEMBER... Many saves, many slots!!! |
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Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:07 am |
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RPG Frog
Blade Runner
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 748
Location: the Matrix |
quote:
Originally posted by mkreku
quote:
Originally posted by kengo2019
What other species of animals do this? Are their such a thing as gay dogs? Gay cats? Please enlighten me(scriptures from any religion or web-sites). I love being entertained.
I usually lay the blame for the homophobia that's hidden in our socity on religion. The Bible is a 2000 year old fairy tale with equally old and outdated moral standings that has ruined the lives of millions since it was written. Ever notice how religious people happen to ignore the parts in the bible that would be a real chore to them (if your neighbour works during sabbath you have to kill him, 2:nd book of Moses 35:2, swedish edition), but happen to believe in the parts that affect other people (like homosexuality being wrong)?
It's actually about 3500 years old. The Greek New Testament is 2000 years old and the Hebrew Old Testament dates back to Sumerian times. And as for your statement on religious hypocrites, the bible condemns them severly through the whole thing.
I absolutely love it when people(athiests & christians alike) quote the bible out of context. When you comment on a story or book, it really helps if you read the thing from beginning to end. Sorta like it helps to watch an entire movie before giving your precious wisdom on it!
_________________
Between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities…there was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars…Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand…to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandaled feet. - Robert E. Howard |
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Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:10 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
You can believe that our little candle ceases to be here... that is immediately obvious. But it's impossible to account for all places where that little flame could have gone, or if it did go at all. That novel possibility is what leaves the door open. Read into the question a little bit more.
If a magician makes the rabbit disappear... did the rabbit really disappear?
Uh... you do know that a candle is nothing more than exited particles, combusting with oxygen, while radiating energy which we can see? And, that when you "blow it out"; you blow in a mixed array of gases (mainly carbon dioxide, and not oxygen, which is needed to sustain the flame) which decreases the ammount of oxygen near the candle, thus halting the combustion?
Why do some religious people need to ask these silly questions as a way to defend themselves? Even though people with the SLIGHTEST knowledge of science understand it? People aren't as ignorant as a few hundred years ago.
How does one hand clapping sound? Hehehehhehehe...
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:06 am |
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