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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
An apple is better than a pear. Or isn't it?
Some will like Gothic more, some will like Morrowind more (I am one of the latters). Some will even prefer Dungeon Siege.
Why I like Morrowind more: greater freedom. Larger world. More quests. More appealing visuals. More background lore. Alchemy system. Spell making. Editor.
A Chiante is better than a Soave. or isn't it?
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Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
Thu May 23, 2002 8:18 am |
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Rainstorm
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 02 Dec 2001
Posts: 194
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
I enjoyed playing Gothic, although it was a very fragile game. You had be sure you didn't enter a certain area prematurely lest a plot be destroyed, you couldn't kill an NPC lest a plot be destroyed, etc. People would be hammering nails into the sides of buildings for days on end in the same spot. The conversations between NPCs were just fluff, didn't really have anything of value to say.
Yep,they're scripted like any NPC in more or less any game,I have still not seen a game that handles it like Gothic did though...
I mean,just seing that bloke hammering and then sitting down in front of his cabin is good enough for me for a more beliavable world...
MW does things similarily,but without the hammering or sitting...I mean run past one person and you'll get the same (for example) "watch your back,you've betrayed the clan" responce too.
But they're also scripted very well when it comes to attacking and so on....in MW after doing the hit on the camorra tong I played around with the guards watched them run past me,jumped around them and so on....they seem to have some real trouble with waypoints...
I was lucky enough to not encounter any bug with Gothic myself...so I never did get those problems...
Gothic crashed after 4+ hours due to mem leaks....I'd say the average running time *for me* with MW so far is 30 mins between crashes...
quote:
I do agree that seeing wolves hunt other animals was a great touch though. I've been playing Morrowind since it was released and I've been having a much more satisfying roleplay experience than I did with Gothic. Does that mean that Morrowind is better, IMO? No, not at all. It just means that Morrowind is the kind of crpg that I like best.
For RP'ing purposes there's no doubt in my mind that MW is better....which is why I never did call Gothic an RPG.(and it's also why I don't really think of PS:T/IWD and similar as RPG's either...linearity and group control doesn't really make for good RP'ing imho...not saying they're bad though)
I was expecting a lot of MW and for graphics,the water,the way the moon circles the red planet in the night,the sky in general and so on it certainly delivered.
However the flow of the game doesn't appeal to *me* and even though I can't say I hate the game it won't make it into a game I will remember and salute....
There are too many (for me) frustrating small things like quest description,getting stuck due to jumping,having to help enemies attack.(cliff racers,if they're straight above you they just stay there,best thing to do is to run up a hill)
There are also things like the huge world which is both good and bad,I mean it's good to have all of this land to roam....but at the same time it's tedious due to its impressive size.(especially if you take a guide quest since you can outrun the NPC's easily you're forced to walk all the way and of course the quests saying "go north")
So I'm not bashing MW,I'm not saying anyone who likes MW is wrong,I'm simply stating my opinion as to why Gothic appeals to *me* more than MW since that's the topic of the thread. 
But imho these two are so different they shouldn't be compared....you can compare aspects of both of them,like NPC behaviour,the world and such.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadeling
I'm finding Morrowind to be very satisfying. I have a high level character and I have yet to experience the so called repetitiveness that I keep hearing about. I've never experienced frustration in being given vague directions where something may be for a quest because they've never been vague for me. Not once. Just goes to show that Morrowind is what you make of it. Literally.
Good to hear you like it....
I have a char around lvl 23 or so and quit my first which I took to about 12.
The repetitivness is that you know what'll happen imho,run through mountains and you'll encounter cliff racers and many of them get stuck.
If they're above you and you stand still,so do they (mean about 15 yards or so straight above you) until you run when they finally will get down to attack or if you run up a hill to make it possible for them to attack.
For the main thread the usual quest is along the lines of "get something from someone,I'm sure he/she wants you to do a chore for them first"...
For the temple one quest is to find one person in Vivec which has corprus disease,you only get the name of her,nothing else...and as we both know Vivec's neither small nor very easy to search through with all its levels.(which is a very good example of the vagueness imho...I mean IRL if someone wanted you to meet someone they'd be a lot more specific,you wouldn't be very likely to hear "a woman has some info for you,go see Mrs Smith in New York"... )
With Umbra,dreugh and orc combo for armour I don't really meet much resistance either...very rarely I need to spend a healing potion since three strikes is usually enough for any enemy I've found so far including dreemer descendant.(getting the Umbra was the last tough battle I had and it took about 3-4 reloads,I had the glass claymore at the time)
But like written,I don't think anyone who enjoys it should stop playing or change their mind or anything like it,go ahead,have fun...it's not a game that suits me and I'm evolving on why and what I don't like about it...
So my opinion counts for me and noone else,some may agree others disagree...I just want to make sure they see and understand my point of view whether or not they support it... |
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Thu May 23, 2002 1:36 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
Even if Gothic is not as huge as Fallout, In Gothic the areas are very well-developed, and you still have a high amount of freedom to do what you damn well please.
Normally in theese types of games you encounter problems like "Thou shalt not pass until thy find da key", but not in Gothic. You can walk stright out in the wilderness, and as long as you are strong enough to beat whatever is in the way, you can go wherever you like, except outside the barrier.
You can jump up and grab edges and pull yourself up. You can roll on the floor to get under obstacles, nothing locks you out, and if its humanly possible to reach something, you can.
You are free to kill any NPC you like, and are always able to get away with it. If you do not like a guy, just kill him. Steal stuff, do what you want...
It is this freedom I speak about. I defenitly not see Gothic as a linear game, until after you know the plot, and then you just do what is the most natural thing to do, wich just happens to be the reminder of the game. 50% of Gothic is Chapter 1 you know.
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Thu May 23, 2002 5:14 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
Giving you the freedom to go anywhere is one thing, but Gothic definately didnt do it right. There is no point in letting you go anywhere you want when if you do so it breaks quests and plot elements.
As far as I know there is no way to get into the orc camp until you are meant to.
You cant get into the necromancer tower until you have done the quest.
You cant get into the castle until you have done the quest.
You cant get into the Swamp Camp temple until you have enough rank.
You cant get into the new mine until you have enough rank.
You cant get into the Water Mage area until you have enough rank.
I am sure there are more, but you DEFINATELY cant go anywhere you want straight away in Gothic.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Thu May 23, 2002 5:24 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
And how much do you consider that is, percentually, compared to the entire game?
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Thu May 23, 2002 5:30 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
Probably about 10 - 15%
However I have not found anywhere in Morrowind that restricts your access.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Thu May 23, 2002 6:09 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
Morrowind, Gothic and Fallout.
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Thu May 23, 2002 6:31 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
er???
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Thu May 23, 2002 6:41 pm |
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Airk
Commander*Warrior*Rogue
Joined: 05 Mar 2002
Posts: 930
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quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
As far as I know there is no way to get into the orc camp until you are meant to.
You cant get into the necromancer tower until you have done the quest.
You cant get into the castle until you have done the quest.
You cant get into the Swamp Camp temple until you have enough rank.
You cant get into the new mine until you have enough rank.
You cant get into the Water Mage area until you have enough rank.
I was able to get into all of those before I was meant to.
_________________
~AIRK~
~Member of the Lost Four~ |
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Thu May 23, 2002 6:51 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
How? Not using exploits I hope.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Thu May 23, 2002 7:21 pm |
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Airk
Commander*Warrior*Rogue
Joined: 05 Mar 2002
Posts: 930
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That depends on what you consider exploits.
With the Necro Tower I transformed into a bloodfly and flew off the highest part of the neighboring mountain.
With the Castle you can either jump past the guards or take out your sword as you walk by.
Same applies to the Swamp Camp Temple and Water Mage Area.
To get into the free mine, I transformed into a bloodfly, got as close to the gate as I could then transformed out, and when I did I was on the other side of the gate.
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~AIRK~
~Member of the Lost Four~ |
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Thu May 23, 2002 7:32 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
I would consider all but the necro tower an exploit. Basically if you take advantage of a bug, or use something in a way that it was not meant to be used to do something you are not meant to be able to do, then that is an exploit.
Although what you did to get into the necro tower wasnt an exploit, you still werent meant to be there yet by normal methods. I am sure if they knew you could do that with a bloodfly they would have fixed it.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Thu May 23, 2002 8:14 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
Chekote
---------
Thoose three does not have limitations, more than obvious ones.
It is a big difference between "locked door, find key" and "That tower is too high to jump up on".
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Thu May 23, 2002 11:59 pm |
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Rainstorm
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 02 Dec 2001
Posts: 194
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quote:
Originally posted by JemyM
Even if Gothic is not as huge as Fallout, In Gothic the areas are very well-developed, and you still have a high amount of freedom to do what you damn well please.
It's actually not that freedom alone I want...I want the freedom to play the game as I want to play it....and so far I've seen two games that has allowed it,Fallout and Fallout2...
If I create a female char I can sleep with T-ray to get the car back (and for upgrades) if I create a really good talker I can convince and lie myself through more or less the entire game and so on.
That's the sort of freedom I want...
quote:
You are free to kill any NPC you like, and are always able to get away with it. If you do not like a guy, just kill him. Steal stuff, do what you want...
I'd say MW and Gothic works pretty similarily there...with one difference,kill in MW in a city without provocation and guards will attack (even if noone's around to see it) in Gothic killing in a cabin or so when noone sees it is ok.
quote:
It is this freedom I speak about. I defenitly not see Gothic as a linear game, until after you know the plot, and then you just do what is the most natural thing to do, wich just happens to be the reminder of the game. 50% of Gothic is Chapter 1 you know.
You and me have a bit different view on freedom...the freedom I want is an entire concept that starts with freedom to build your own char the way you want to play,to be able to -due to your chars preferences- solve quests differently and so on.
Being able to roam around killing animals/raiders/whatever is a small part of the freedom...and it doesn't really make a game less linear...
The linearity is within the storyline and how to make it evolve...in FO you could run straight for Necropolis,take the waterchip and solve the first half of the game instantly if you knew where to go and what to do.
In a linear game you have to do thing A to make thing B happen,so choose a camp,join it and have the rest of the story evolve accordingly and in the same way with the difference lying in which armour you wear... |
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Fri May 24, 2002 1:21 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
There is a difference between pre-built characters and open character creation, even in normal PnP games. Both have advantages and flaws, but in a roleplaying game you take the role as a character (pre-built or made yourself) and meet the world from the eyes of your character.
The difference between a pre-built character and a adventure game, is that in an adventure game you do not have any options to control the will and actions of your character. Instead you are forced to take the exact path the developers have prepared to you. No alternative endings, no doing something completely different, one and single solution for everything and yes, your advantages will be holding your breath in 10 minutes, and your flaws will be Fear: Porcelain... becouse that is the character you are forced to play, and you wont have any way to affect that.
So your will of freedom are a more defined path into the Roleplaying cathegory. That does not make Gothic an adventure game, it only makes the difference between playing piano or guitar... You are still a musician. And yes, I can agree that the final 50% of the game is linear. In our PnP group we call that "train adventure", you have a character and you play it according to YOUR view on the character and his actions, but you still have the plot staked out for you, and obvious leads will lead you exactly where the storyteller/developers want you to go to.
Creating your character 100% on your own is what we call "pig-breeding adventure", where the character is in focus, and the adventure is actually the Character. The Character get a job, a house, allies, contacts, relatives, and deal with the problems that he encounter in his every day (but often unusual) life.
Morrowind is pig-breeding all the way. No-one stops you if you stay two months in the tavern in Pelagiad, and you are absolutely free to do whatever you like (even if you do have a 'mission'), same thing goes with Fallout AND the first 50% of Gothic.
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Fri May 24, 2002 2:22 pm |
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