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Scrib
Head Merchant
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 68
Location: West Palm Beach, FL |
| Kinda off topic- just wanted to share it with y'all |
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It's wierd sometimes being on the development end of this stuff- I use and teach a program called 'Maya' professionally. Just thinking about all you people that play this stuff that those of us that have put this stuff together have made- There is a guy next to me right now making a rear spoiler polymesh for a car model he's working on- he's been messin with it for like 2 hours now.
Next time you're some bookstore go into the computer section and check out a book on Maya- just to see what it's like making this stuff.- then look at C++ to see what it's like making the stuff react to your controller- It kinda gives you another perspective. 
_________________
+ A video game hero gone bad +
+ Plays with recalled toys +
+ Celebrity mutant during my day job + |
Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:40 pm |
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thrash3002
Head Merchant
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 61
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hehe, i kinda know what you mean.. i'm in the same field of work, but i'm still an undergrad..
but since you've brought it up, i have an idea i'd like some feedback and criticism on..
Basically, I'm working on a method to generate random AI for NPCs within a game, so that every time you have that NPC as an opponent (or an ally for that matter), it will act differently and do things differently..
If you think about it, AI in games nowadays are either hardcoded (i.e for those of you who aren't computer geeks lolz, hardcoded basically means the NPC is told what to do word for word, action for action), or it learns based on your (i.e. the player's) actions. So it learns to improve only when you improve.. if you keep doing the same thign over and over again, it'll keep doing the same thing over and over again (being in the industry, Scrib would know a LOT more about this than I). This gets boring after a while, especially if it's reached it's limits and therefore can't find a way to beat your strategy (i.e. the AI crashes lol)
So my vision is to invent a sort of generic AI generator that'll produce new AI for an NPC for every new time you encounter that NPC. That way, there'll be less AI crashing, and games will be more interesting, since your opponent will present you with a new strategy every once in a while. This is applicable to strategy games, beat em up, shoot em up games, etc.
Of course, for RPGs, this cannot change the way the storyline is set out, because i don't think a computer can be capable of that within the next 73 years.. But for an exmaple to those of you who are here for arx fatalis, imagine the first time you play tye invincible beast, it's stupid and doesn't know how to get at you when you're up on the second level of room 15 in level 8.. but the next time you play it, it finds a way to climb up[ and attack you.. ohh, the adrenalin rush that would give lolz.. and even if it fails in getting up, it'd be more fun just watching what the hell it tries to do lolz..
There's a lot more to it than that, but i'm not going to go into detail.. i just want some feedback and criticism about the idea.
Now, before Scrib says that this is difficult simply because during a game, graphics and control and sound and AI and all the other components of a game are fighting for resources, I've taken that into consideration
This is still in the discussion phase, and i'm going to begin my thesis on it in august, so hopefully it's not that far off from becoming a reality, that is, if i've researched enough to have taken every possible problem into account.
So guys, what you think?? any feedback and critisism will be much appreciated
If i can make this work, games would be much more interesting i reckon So wish me luck.
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Knowledge is the key to success.. but you won't unlock success unless you USE that key |
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Wed Jul 07, 2004 5:12 am |
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thrash3002
Head Merchant
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 61
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Ok, after reading my own post, i realise that it's kind of confusing, so if you guys don't understand what the heck i'm on about, tell me what to explain better, and i will try
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Knowledge is the key to success.. but you won't unlock success unless you USE that key |
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Wed Jul 07, 2004 5:20 am |
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Scrib
Head Merchant
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 68
Location: West Palm Beach, FL |
OK. The deal is that I am in the graphics department. Meaning Flash, Maya, etc. The programs that MAKE the thingys, not the C++ side of it. But I do know enough to tell you this much, which may be just what you want to hear (Oh, by the way, I am the program director for the graphics department at a media arts college)
The routine / subrotine you will need to write should be some variant of a conditional if/then/next/else kind of statement. Meaning IF player (variable) THEN NPC (variable) - action
Followed by the fact that the variables would be dynamic, or stair-stepping in nature- menaing, it would use a more advanced function after evaluating the first set of conditionals, moving to evaluate them again, but this time using a more advanced IF/THEN
set. Make sense? - Scrib
_________________
+ A video game hero gone bad +
+ Plays with recalled toys +
+ Celebrity mutant during my day job + |
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Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:23 pm |
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Scrib
Head Merchant
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 68
Location: West Palm Beach, FL |
http://www.aiwisdom.com
Is a place I suggest you visit
-Scrib 
_________________
+ A video game hero gone bad +
+ Plays with recalled toys +
+ Celebrity mutant during my day job + |
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Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:36 pm |
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thrash3002
Head Merchant
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 61
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lolz, thanx heaps.. i've been to that site.. i have the 2 books.. I've done most of the research involved.. I'd just like feedback from the point of view of players as to what they think about an "evolving" in-game AI, so to speak..
So if you please, forget the fact that you program this stuff, and tell me what you think as a player.. anything game Ai-related that you guys and gals would like to see become a reality, etc..
Oh, and an if/then/else conditional is, in essence, hardcoded AI, which is what i'm trying to avoid, since that doesn't allow for much change.. The problem with conditional statements such as that are that we have to specify the if and the then and the else.. it doesn't change until the programmer changes it..
The human mind is severely one tracked.. when we're faced with a problem, we think of one possible way to solve it, and stick to that, disregarding the other zillion possible ways to solve that same problem.. until we absolutely need to, we don't bother searching for a better way to solve a given problem.. that's why monopolies in industry are bad, for example.. they have no competition, and hence no reason to improve..
Every game is coded in a different language, uses a different methodology, applies different technologies. I'm not going to do the specific AI programming.. I'm trying to devise a way to get a computer to do that. That way, the computer can evolve it's own AI on the fly, without the need of a human guiding it.. that's my goal.
Initially, a human developer will have to interface the game AI to my in-game Ai generator, and if he or she so pleases, the AI can be specified as a bunch of conditional if/then/else statements.. but that's not my concern. My concern is only that i need to make sure that my generator has the capability to interface with all possible AI representations, and also to generate fairly good AI for all representations. Thanx to object oreintation, interfacing isn't a problem at all.. I've already managed to design and code up a working version of the interface and have tested it on a variety of simple games.. it's the consistently generating worthy AI that's my focus.. that's the difficult part lolz..
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Knowledge is the key to success.. but you won't unlock success unless you USE that key |
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Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:51 pm |
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thrash3002
Head Merchant
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 61
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Ok, if you've just read all of that, that's cool.. if you've understood my rambling, even better.. but i think i just got lost in my thoughts and typed up a whole lotta crap lolz..
The main point is, as a player, is there anything anyone would like to share about the idea of "evolving in-game AI"? feedback, criticism, insights, etc?
It's not so much learning.. that's already been taken care of.. most AI used in games nowadays DO learn to a certain extent..
It's more to do with the computer "thinking" up new, totally different strategies to use against you compared to a previous attempt to beat you..
Also, even a computer would need some time to "think" up a new strategy.. how would you guys feel about leaving your PCs on for a while when you aren't playing on them to allow the computer to come up with a good strategy?
_________________
Knowledge is the key to success.. but you won't unlock success unless you USE that key |
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Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:08 pm |
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thrash3002
Head Merchant
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 61
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Oh, and specifically to scrib.. graphics.. EEK... i don't know how you can stand graphics lolz.. i hate programming graphics stuff.. hate openGL, DirectX, and graphics in general lolz..
Altho, i guess SOMEONE has to do it.. i respect all of you graphics ppl for putting in all that hard work to give us game lovers the awesome stuff that's in games today.. I don't think i'd have the strength to put up with something like openGL for the rest of my life.. so you guys have my respect
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Knowledge is the key to success.. but you won't unlock success unless you USE that key |
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Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:46 pm |
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Scrib
Head Merchant
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 68
Location: West Palm Beach, FL |
quote:
Originally posted by thrash3002
Oh, and specifically to scrib.. graphics.. EEK... i don't know how you can stand graphics lolz.. i hate programming graphics stuff.. hate openGL, DirectX, and graphics in general lolz..
That's funny. I've seen this before. I used to work with a dude who was like awesome in asp and visual basic and when he would see me do something in a graphics program he was all blown away and thought it was such a pain and when I would see his scripts I would be like "how can you stand that stuff' It's the classic left / right brain thing.
Anyway, I read through your posts. Makes me think of Terminator and Cyberdyne systems.
-I just got called away to handle an admin. issue here. I'll let you know what I think about your AI idea later.----SJ
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+ A video game hero gone bad +
+ Plays with recalled toys +
+ Celebrity mutant during my day job + |
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Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:01 pm |
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thrash3002
Head Merchant
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 61
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Umm... terminator and cyberdyne systems?? hmm, maybe i haven't done enough research then.. care to expalin?
I went off and checked the cyberdyne website, but i don't see how their gambling games relate to what i'm doing? or maybe i just went to the wrong site?
Also, i shouldn't say "evolve", because that again means changing or learning according to experience.. let's just say "constantly changing in-game AI/strategy"...
_________________
Knowledge is the key to success.. but you won't unlock success unless you USE that key |
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Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:03 am |
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Scrib
Head Merchant
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 68
Location: West Palm Beach, FL |
quote:
Originally posted by thrash3002
Umm... terminator and cyberdyne systems?? hmm, maybe i haven't done enough research then.. care to expalin?
I went off and checked the cyberdyne website, but i don't see how their gambling games relate to what i'm doing? or maybe i just went to the wrong site?
Also, i shouldn't say "evolve", because that again means changing or learning according to experience.. let's just say "constantly changing in-game AI/strategy"...
___________
It was a joke. In the movie Terminator a company named Cyberdyne builds Skynet, a computer-controlled defense system with massive AI which becomes self aware and figures out that we are inferior, and pests, and becomes hell-bent on ridding the world of humanity.......
Well, you should say 'evolve' because changing or learning through experience gained by the NPC after monitoring the actions of the player is what you are after, is it not?
i mean, a constantly changing in-game strategy is a simple procedure of programming multiple paths and variables by coding, yet I thought you were trying to stay away from that.
So yes, evolve is a good word. Can you build an NPC which, over time, aquires their own experience points, then, just like players do? Where the abilities of a NPC increase with the more time in the game passes, so that say, when starting the game, a player runs into a particular NPC, and neither of them are all to experienced or advanced, except the NPC has certain 'base abilities' and the player, being human, can do whatever they want, but limited by his on-screnn character's abilities, of course.
So, as time passes, the player gets to assign XP to certain abilities, and become better, faster, etc. At the same time, every NPC in the game is growing, too. So, values coded and reserved for a particular class of NPC increase automatically as time goes by- i.e.- Young orcs grow older and stronger, able to move faster and read the input of a player's motion or action and act accordingly based on a wider range of 'second-guessing' the player's intended action from the input that the NPC can 'feel' coming offf the player's controller. Let's say the player hits a key which would cast a magic spell of destruction. When an NPC is particularly advanced, make it so that it could 'sense' this action and quickly take means to protect itself, perhaps even before the player is able to finish casting the spell. An older NPC may not be able to react physically as fast, but may have more magic skill.
Have you looked into the game 'Fable' which is coming out for Xbox this year?
---Scrib
_________________
+ A video game hero gone bad +
+ Plays with recalled toys +
+ Celebrity mutant during my day job + |
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Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:39 pm |
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thrash3002
Head Merchant
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 61
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Terminator the movie.. ohh.. you really had me worried there 
_________________
Knowledge is the key to success.. but you won't unlock success unless you USE that key |
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Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:58 pm |
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thrash3002
Head Merchant
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 61
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ok, i had just typed out a 500 page essay to reply, but my net connection cut out before i could post it, so i'm not gonna bother trying to reply again ryte now 
i'll answer your questions next time i get on.. [/quote]
_________________
Knowledge is the key to success.. but you won't unlock success unless you USE that key |
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Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:03 pm |
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Scrib
Head Merchant
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 68
Location: West Palm Beach, FL |
I'm finished with Arx, and am playing Deus Ex for xbox right now. This one, I like the AI more than Arx's. The story is set in the near future a bio-cybernetic kind of world.
These particular security 'bots do something interesting when they sense your presence, which, incidentally, is not necessarily by sight. They can sense your heat signature, and you will hear them say things like ' Assessing situation based on location of intruder' and will take up a different position based on your whereabouts, in effect, changing their tactics.
These particular ones are not that fast, so the best tactic is just to rush them and circle around while they follow, albeit a bit too slow.
Also, one thing I notice in most games is that when an enemy NPC sees or senses you, they almost always charge in for an attack. If the enemy NPC has true AI, they will 'assess' the situation and determine the best course of action to kill you, which, in true human style, would be to seek out the best position ffor a either a clear shot or try and sneak around and attack from behind. I think the assess situation-determine best course of action-re-assess, and re-evaluate every few milliseconds, then follow new course method would be a step in the right direction for this AI.
-Scrib
_________________
+ A video game hero gone bad +
+ Plays with recalled toys +
+ Celebrity mutant during my day job + |
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Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:43 pm |
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thrash3002
Head Merchant
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 61
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quote:
Also, one thing I notice in most games is that when an enemy NPC sees or senses you, they almost always charge in for an attack. If the enemy NPC has true AI, they will 'assess' the situation and determine the best course of action to kill you, which, in true human style, would be to seek out the best position ffor a either a clear shot or try and sneak around and attack from behind. I think the assess situation-determine best course of action-re-assess, and re-evaluate every few milliseconds, then follow new course method would be a step in the right direction for this AI.
lolz, funny you mention that.. i had written about this and also about the drawbacks of gam AI nowadays before i lost that post, but what you just mentioned is actually being taken care of as we speak One of the methods being used is termed Goal-based Planning.. if you have the book AI Game Programming Wisdom 2, it's decribed in article 3.4 in the book, titled Applying Goal-Oriented Action Planning to Games by Jeff Orkin.
If you don't have the book, well i'm sure you can find the article on the net somewhere..
_________________
Knowledge is the key to success.. but you won't unlock success unless you USE that key |
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Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:37 am |
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