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Zakhal
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 188
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| Difference between pve and pvp |
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If you box pve and pvp tightly enough you could say:
Pve folks want mmorpgs to be like single player games, played together against the AI.
Pvp folks want mmorpgs to be games where people can play against each other. AI possibly on both sides. Content is not created by AI, but the players itself by imposing challenges to each other through the game mechanics like territorial conquest and all the politics involved etc.
Where the pve folks go wrong is, that its impossible to run a (pve) mmorpg and expect it to 24/7 have even nearly as good content as single player games have. In the end the content always goes in short supply and all that is left is the bare skeleton treadmill(s) plus the social interaction through guilds and friends, the only reasons that keep the players still paying their monthly.
Thoughts? Many of the bick buck mmorpgs are more or less nothing more than pure pve games. SWG and WoW to name few... |
Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:18 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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| Re: Difference between pve and pvp |
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quote:
Originally posted by Zakhal
If you box pve and pvp tightly enough you could say:
Pve folks want mmorpgs to be like single player games, played together against the AI.
Pvp folks want mmorpgs to be games where people can play against each other. AI possibly on both sides. Content is not created by AI, but the players itself by imposing challenges to each other through the game mechanics like territorial conquest and all the politics involved etc.
Where the pve folks go wrong is, that its impossible to run a (pve) mmorpg and expect it to 24/7 have even nearly as good content as single player games have. In the end the content always goes in short supply and all that is left is the bare skeleton treadmill(s) plus the social interaction through guilds and friends, the only reasons that keep the players still paying their monthly.
Thoughts? Many of the bick buck mmorpgs are more or less nothing more than pure pve games. SWG and WoW to name few...
I don't think you can say that anyone goes wrong.
In comparison to single player rpgs PvE MMORPGs offer a bigger playground, more replayability, more quests and dungeons. Epic storylines? PvE games can have those too (AC I believe had something like that).
PvP may offer some more RP and reality elements, but they also offer grievers and give the players too much confidence. SB, for example, want the players to handle the "justice" (haha) themselves. Plus of course, pvp games force you to almost constantly watch your back.
Besides most of these coming PvE games offers PvP in a controlled fashion (which I think is one of the better ways to have pvp) like arenas/duel commands. However, they will probably have pvp-servers for those who simply crave pure PvP.
It's ALL in what kind of audience you want to please.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Wed Feb 12, 2003 12:17 pm |
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Zakhal
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 188
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| Re: Difference between pve and pvp |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
I don't think you can say that anyone goes wrong.
People want a new pve game, but they dont want it to have threadmills. They just dont understand its impossible to have any better pve game than eq/uo with todays tech. You either have treadmills or then you end up with a sims online.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
In comparison to single player rpgs PvE MMORPGs offer a bigger playground, more replayability, more quests and dungeons. Epic storylines? PvE games can have those too (AC I believe had something like that).
Main difference between pve mmorpg and singleplayer game is that teh pve game needs to offer endless content 24/7. Sp though can be limited.
The point is that its impossible to make a mog that could offer endless content. If it would be possible wed see it as a singleplayer game allready.Infact we allready do. Just check out daggerfall. It has endless pve content, but when you play it enough its reduced to simple treadmills of monster bashing and eq gathering.
The same thing applies to pve mmorpgs. You will always go short with content and all that is left is the treadmill(s) and social enjoyment. Like playing diablo with irc client and paying 15 bucks per month for it.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
PvP may offer some more RP and reality elements, but they also offer grievers and give the players too much confidence. SB, for example, want the players to handle the "justice" (haha) themselves. Plus of course, pvp games force you to almost constantly watch your back.
Griefers are a mock up image, wildly blown out of proportions by endless effors of drama queens in the forum wars(tm). Its a hype of a kind.
With proper accountability tools teh community can easily handle the griefing problem. This was seen allready in UO. (atleast in rp servers)
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Besides most of these coming PvE games offers PvP in a controlled fashion (which I think is one of the better ways to have pvp) like arenas/duel commands. However, they will probably have pvp-servers for those who simply crave pure PvP.
Problem is that most of the pvp they offer is meaningless. Why play 15 bucks per month to play team based deathmatch? |
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Wed Feb 12, 2003 12:46 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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| Re: Difference between pve and pvp |
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You say that the grieving problem is blown out of proportion, and that may be as it will. But that doesn't change the fact that the problem exists. With such immense interaction between players that MMORPGs present there needs to be some order.
Besides, having both death-punishment, perma death and/or corpse looting like some upcoming PvP games are presenting COMPLETELY destroys the game for some people, while for some it's a great way to deal with with game-stagnation.
I can agree on that PvE games become boring and treadmills kick in if you play them long enough, and if no expansions/content extensions, quest variation or GM events take place. Or you can look at games like EQ and UO.
I thought most PvE gamers knew they're getting hack'n'slash dungeon crawl style games, still although some may not enjoy to kill new MOBs, exploring new dungeons and quests (with help from expansions, EQ still offers unexplored content) it doesn't mean everybody won't.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:44 pm |
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Zakhal
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 188
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| Re: Difference between pve and pvp |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
You say that the grieving problem is blown out of proportion, and that may be as it will. But that doesn't change the fact that the problem exists. With such immense interaction between players that MMORPGs present there needs to be some order.
Have you every playd a game with proper accountability tools? UO sure didnt have them.
And too add, all you have to do is take the whiners away. For the rest its not a problem anymore but a game with a challenge. Even in uo (pre-R) there were (rp) servers with nil griefing problem. Europe for example.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Besides, having both death-punishment, perma death and/or corpse looting like some upcoming PvP games are presenting COMPLETELY destroys the game for some people, while for some it's a great way to deal with with game-stagnation
And how do you know that? Ive played shadowbane a lot and have had nothing of these problems you mention. Its because the problems does not exist in proper system.
Have you ever played permadeath mmorpg? Ok, you havent. For the knowledge you need to build the game around the pd to make it work. Adding permadeath in everquests system would never work.
Same for pvp. To make pvp work best you need to build the game around it to build up a good accountability system.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
I thought most PvE gamers knew they're getting hack'n'slash dungeon crawl style games, still although some may not enjoy to kill new MOBs, exploring new dungeons and quests (with help from expansions, EQ still offers unexplored content) it doesn't mean everybody won't.
I never sayd that people would not like treadmills. Its just the fact that you cant have a better game built around pve than that. |
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Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:16 am |
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Farseer
City Guard
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 131
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With the trend toward less content, and more level milling; most people are getting pretty thin on patience. And now that with a downturned economy, and these games wanting to charge 24.95 a month(SWG), people should wake up and get a taste of reality......Drugs are bad, Say NO to drugs,and your favorite time sink mmorpg. |
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Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:37 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Originally posted by Zakhal
And how do you know that? Ive played shadowbane a lot and have had nothing of these problems you mention. Its because the problems does not exist in proper system.
Have you ever played permadeath mmorpg? Ok, you havent. For the knowledge you need to build the game around the pd to make it work. Adding permadeath in everquests system would never work.
Same for pvp. To make pvp work best you need to build the game around it to build up a good accountability system.
Build up the game around pd? You mean scaling down on progression (Hi SB) and rp then? Hello Diablo 2 hardcore mode!
I don't need to play a pd game to know that I, like many others, would HATE to loose that one-year played character. Starting over and over may be fun and offer replayability for some, while it only stagnates the game and makes it repetetive for others.
PvP player struggling can easily become as much of a treadmill as PvE monster-bashing, only more flexible.
Giving the illusion of "realm building" (example: DaoC and SB) is a pretty good way to keep things interesting in a larger aspect, however.
quote:
Originally posted by Zakhal
I never sayd that people would not like treadmills. Its just the fact that you cant have a better game built around pve than that.
Then again, you can't really say that the PvE gamers "go wrong".
P.S. I thought new MMORPGs offered more and mainly NEW content.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:54 pm |
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Zakhal
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 188
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quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Build up the game around pd? You mean scaling down on progression (Hi SB) and rp then? Hello Diablo 2 hardcore mode!
Diablo is not a mmorpg, but pd is still very popular in it.
For example, you cant build a 20 story building on wooden legs, cos it would come crashing down. Same way, for pd you need to build a system that supports it.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
I don't need to play a pd game to know that I, like many others, would HATE to loose that one-year played character. Starting over and over may be fun and offer replayability for some, while it only stagnates the game and makes it repetetive for others.
Depends whether you want to play a game, or build a life inside a game. In this light i can understand why som people could not handle dying in their own little virtual world.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
PvP player struggling can easily become as much of a treadmill as PvE monster-bashing, only more flexible.
Giving the illusion of "realm building" (example: DaoC and SB) is a pretty good way to keep things interesting in a larger aspect, however.
Pvp creates content and people start to roleplay automaticly. Political discussion, pacts, assasinations, traitors, mercenaries, etc. The more open the pvp system is, the more options there are to interact beyond xping and getting fat loot. It creates reasons, meaningfulness for roleplaying.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Then again, you can't really say that the PvE gamers "go wrong".
So many expect not to see another everquest/uo again. Yet, few months after the release, you see people b1tching how it was a dissapointment again. |
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Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:50 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Originally posted by Zakhal
Depends whether you want to play a game, or build a life inside a game. In this light i can understand why som people could not handle dying in their own little virtual world.
Hahaha...
Yes, because the feel of wasted effort/money/time=living inside an rpg.
Honestly, you felt the need to bring up that "geekz IRL!" comment?
PvE games can give players a calmer and less stressful environment.
quote:
Originally posted by Zakhal
Pvp creates content and people start to roleplay automaticly. Political discussion, pacts, assasinations, traitors, mercenaries, etc. The more open the pvp system is, the more options there are to interact beyond xping and getting fat loot. It creates reasons, meaningfulness for roleplaying.
Yes, the communities created inside MMORPGs (both pve and pvp) does create other interactions instead of xping and lewting.
I agree that pvp can provide a more realistic and flexible rp environment, but with it commes the stress, frustration and "fear" that some may not enjoy.
It comes down to "How much strife do you want in you game?"
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:18 pm |
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Zakhal
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 188
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[quote="Hexy"]
quote:
Originally posted by Zakhal
I agree that pvp can provide a more realistic and flexible rp environment, but with it commes the stress, frustration and "fear" that some may not enjoy.
It comes down to "How much strife do you want in you game?"
Not strife, but excitement. |
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Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:37 pm |
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Beo
Space Defender
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 542
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Griefing does not limit to pvp, it can be presented in PVE as well. By taking advantages of faulty game mechanics, one can steal kill and train death to others. Since MMORPG is a community game, it should let the community to decide how to police it.
AI combat is bordom, it lacks the dynamic and the unpredictable encounter of pvp. PVE combat is for leveling while PVP combat is for challenges. Both are necessary to make a game enjoyable. |
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Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:21 pm |
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Zakhal
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 188
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quote:
Originally posted by Beo
AI combat is bordom, it lacks the dynamic and the unpredictable encounter of pvp. PVE combat is for leveling while PVP combat is for challenges. Both are necessary to make a game enjoyable.
Nah, you dont need pve if you make dynamic enough world. In uo i.e you could became a grandmaster sworduser just by sparring with your friends. |
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Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:53 am |
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Kabduhl
City Guard
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 127
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zakhal you share my sentiments and i can tell you are shadowbane fan!
pvp is so much more fun than pve for me as well but i have known plenty of folks who just don't like it at all ... |
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Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:00 am |
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Shrapnel
Rocket Scientist
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 1325
Location: Newark, NJ |
I've never seen PvP as fun because all PvPers like to do is p/l their mages, group up with their other p/l'd mage-friends and catch you in a bottlneck somewhere and encircle you, kill, loot, mock.
Rinse and repeat.
Zak, why not just quote the whole thread next time bud:) |
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Sat May 10, 2003 2:42 am |
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Zakhal
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 188
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You tell me, rocket scientist.  |
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Wed May 14, 2003 12:34 pm |
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