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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Should it be correct that either leather or chain hats, gloves and boots adds "0" to your armour class?
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Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:32 am |
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EverythingXen
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Joined: 01 Feb 2002
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More or less. More accurately, chain coifs, metal gauntlets, etc are part of existing sets of armor... a set of full plate, for example, in pen and paper includes gauntlets, full helm, plated boots, etc... all as part of its +8 armor AC. These pieces, though, can be replaced with magical items of the same location without affecting the integrity of the armor. For example, a fighter in full plate who replaces his normal helm with a helm of teleportation and his gauntlets with a pair of gauntlets of ogre power without any loss of armor class.
The reason TOEE has these things is mostly cosmetic. Fighters with black gloves under silver armor look cool? They needed the slots there anyways, just like all D&D games... might as well put some cosmetic non magical items there to change your avatar's appearance.
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Wed Nov 12, 2003 1:20 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Okay, if it's not magical stuff, then it's only cosmetic.
A bit strange that a set of iron bracers or a full helm doesn't do anything for your protection (AC), just the body armor.
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Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:30 pm |
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EverythingXen
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Joined: 01 Feb 2002
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Not so strange. D&D has no hit location capabilities... you can't 'call shot' an opponent (with a few exceptions... you may strike his weapon or wielded items like a shield or a potion he's about to drink). It's purposely abstract.
IE: If you said a helmet added +1 armor you're saying that the +8 from the body shouldn't apply to the head... so I should logically be able to strike the head easier. That or your saying that a person with no helmet somehow has +8 armor from full plate on his head, while one with a helmet on has a +9.
Either way it doesn't work. That's why they say helms and gauntlets are assumed worn and part of the overall armor class.
If people think someone is crazy for not wearing a helmet while biking or skateboarding... how much crazier is the idea of getting into a fight against a guy with a sword without wearing a helmet?
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Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:16 pm |
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JDR13
Magister of the Light
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 376
Location: Michigan, United States |
But I wonder , do helmets prevent critical hits like in Baldurs Gate? |
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Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:47 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
Not so strange. D&D has no hit location capabilities... you can't 'call shot' an opponent (with a few exceptions... you may strike his weapon or wielded items like a shield or a potion he's about to drink). It's purposely abstract.
IE: If you said a helmet added +1 armor you're saying that the +8 from the body shouldn't apply to the head... so I should logically be able to strike the head easier. That or your saying that a person with no helmet somehow has +8 armor from full plate on his head, while one with a helmet on has a +9.
Either way it doesn't work. That's why they say helms and gauntlets are assumed worn and part of the overall armor class.
If people think someone is crazy for not wearing a helmet while biking or skateboarding... how much crazier is the idea of getting into a fight against a guy with a sword without wearing a helmet?
ahhh, I'm not convinced 
Okay there are no called shots, so the AC of the character is an overall protection value, so why would that be strange that a helm, bracers, boots etc. would add let say +1 to AC each on the overall protection value, as you say yourself a man in a sword fight without a helmet is more exposed than one with a helmet, even though the body is a far more exposed than his head. But, that's exactly why a body armour should count more on the AC than a helmet etc., but I can't see why it's an obvious idea to have helmet, boots, bracers, gloves etc only to have cosmetic importanse if they are not magic.
I'm not a power character builder , or item collecter freak, but this downgrade of many items are unnecessary in my opinion.
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Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:09 am |
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EverythingXen
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Joined: 01 Feb 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by JDR13
But I wonder , do helmets prevent critical hits like in Baldurs Gate?
No. That was the silliest mechanic ever thought of for a D&D game. Critical hits are not 'head shots' (though they might be if the DM describes them as such). Preventing critical hits, especially in 3rd edition where critical hits are core rules (they were optional in first and second edition), is a benefit of a magical armor enchancement called "Fortification".
Michael: There's a variant rule called 'piece mail' that gives you the AC percentage of each piece of armor and allows you to mix armors... like wearing gauntlets with leather armor to increase AC and such.
It's meant mostly for worlds like Dark Sun where a full set of armor is a rare and wonderful thing and most people grab what they can from a battlefield.
It's needlessly complex and bogs down the system somewhat. Full plate gives you +8. It includes gauntlets, helmet, greaves, vambraces, etc. A chain shirt gives you +4. It includes a steel helm, shirt, and leather plated forearm guards. Since you change armor so often in a computer game it's easier to simply assign full ac to a suit which takes the main body as a placeholder spot and make the other slots cosmetic. Firstly it saves on inventory space... secondly it avoids things like what happens when I have a pair of leather gloves on instead of my gauntlets, which are part of a set of +3 full plate? Hey, I found a helmet +2... what happens when I switch it out for my normal helmet?
Plus, realistic or not, characters without helmets look cool. Can't diss people too hard for looking cool in a fantasy game. 
D&D tries to keep things simple, especially in CRPGs. Swords never dull or break. Armor never wears down. Proper armor pieces are assumed. Mages never run out of bat poop needed to cast fireball.
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Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:58 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
E-Xen: Hehe, I'm sure you know a lot more about D&D rules than I do, so I won't even try to doubt your comments.
Okay, I now know why the new D&D rules don't give ekstra AC for helmets alone, as they presume that a body armor set comes with an according helm, gauntlet, boots, capes etc.
So either you buy the hole package, or nothing, if the poor babarian only can affort the chest leather, not the helmet and bracers, then it's his problem.
If that is arranged so to keep it simple by D&D, and to save inventory space, why have they even bothered to have them in the inventory list in TOEE, and why are the "body" armor not reflecting a full set of armor, as it's AC pretends to represent (Yeah I know cosmetic reasons).
Maybe P&P players are tired of all this management, but we CRPG player have a lot of help in those regards, and do like more advanged item management from time to time.
If you switches the bracers in a +3 Full plate armour, then you ofcourse loose the "+3" if it was an "magical" enhancement for having the full set.
But why should a "fighter in a normally full leather suit, want to put the fine steel helmet on he find in a treasue box (Not the hole suit just a helmet), if it don't protect him better, than his thin leather helmet. No it would ruin his overall leather look  But the fact that he probably could shuck of some sword blows to the head with his steel helm, but certainly not with his leather helm obvious don't matter here.
Okay TOEE claims to be the first one with the 3.5 rules and seems (apart from all the bugs), to respect the rules as they are written in this encyclopedia, I just hope they bend the rules a little next time for CRPG purposes, and I'm not only talking about this armor thing!
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Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:18 pm |
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EverythingXen
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Joined: 01 Feb 2002
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A barbarian who can't afford full plate (1500 gp) can get half-plate (800 gp), which is full plate minus the helmet, plated boots, and upper arm guards.
A barbarian who can't afford half-plate can get a breastplate (200 gp) which is half plate minus the forearm guards and sports weaker upper leg greaves.
A barbarian who can't afford a breast plate can get a set of chainmail (150) which is half-plate with the plating removed leaving only the chain underlayer on leather backing.
A barbarian who can't afford a full set of chain can get a chain shirt (100) which is breasplate with the plate removed.
A barbarian who can't afford a chain shirt can get studded leather (75).
A barbarian who can't afford studded leather needs a new profession... and leather armor (25), which is the leather without the studs.
In sheer desperation he can get padded armor (5 gold), which is the quilting you wear under chain mail and all the other heavier armors. It's better than nothing but not by much.
See? As armor cost and efficiency decreases, so does coverage and thickness of protection.
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Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:04 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
See? As armor cost and efficiency decreases, so does coverage and thickness of protection.
Clear as the sky in summer time in Sahara
But, this system still have problems when you combine armor from different protection levels (Leather, plate, studded etc.) EX. A steel helmet will not alone upgrade a fighters AC in a full leather armor???
And yes a "breast plate" is only huhh a "breasplate" nothing else, no helmet, no boots no nothing else. But the babarian with this breastplate find some plate greaves, plate gaunlets, plate helmet etc during his treasure hunts, and put it all on, but he still don't get the protection like "halfplate" even though he is covered just as well, as he couldn't affort to buy the hole halfplate package.
I know it is made so to simplify things, but this is an unnecessary limiting feature in CRPG's IMHO.
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Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:23 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
BTW, I got a Rogue in TOEE, who is constantly "entangled". He has an dexterity decrease on -2, and can't move or break free in combat mode.
In non-combat mode, he still is burdened with Entangle, but I can move him around. I guess it's a bug, as I have tried to remove curse, disease, dispel magic without any change. So this character is screwed up I guess?
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Fri Nov 14, 2003 11:12 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
He can move around probably because it's assumed that the other people in the party can carry him. You'd have to cast some sort of remove paralysis spell. Or rest a lot.
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Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:23 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
I've tried to rest a lot (20 days) without results so far, and without notifications that he is trying to break the spell, as it happens with diseases.
I will have to try with remove paralyses, but I don't believe it will change his condition, as entangle is not a mind paralyses condition, as he still can fire his bow, but not move one single step. I got the option to "break" the entangle during combat, but it never tells me if the try was in vein, other than the reduction of action points, it just fails all the time.
BTW I tried all the divine helps I could get from the temples, but nothing helped him, even though the priest still charged a lot of money
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Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:05 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Try hex-editing his Strength really high and see if he can break free. Otherwise, all I can suggest is reloading from a previous save.
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Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:19 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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It's a bug the patch was supposed to fix.
Try casting freedom of movement on him or break enchantment.
I suspect you'll have to 'junk' the character at the inn and replace him, though.
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Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:45 pm |
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