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| Did Bush make a case for war? |
| Yes |
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38% |
[ 10 ] |
| No |
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50% |
[ 13 ] |
| Will decide with evidence from Colin Powell |
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11% |
[ 3 ] |
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| Total Votes : 26 |
Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
~If we start to attack every country that is a possible minor threat to us, we will fight the next hundred years - there are many dictators all over the world.
Iraq is a different situation because they've already demostrated their willingness to use chemical weapoans and attack their neighbors. They agreed to disarm. This is not a new situation, but a twelve year old one. Just because there are many doesn't mean we should do nothing in this case.
~If the US government had a good after war plan, they would have told the world public to win a few more discussions.
And of cause a good after war plan is necessary to avoid a follow-up war / civil war.
Speculation. I imagine it will be similar to what happened in Afganistan, but it depends on what happens in the war. Doesn't weigh heavily in my mind.
~In fact the oil price have to rise, to show all people that oil is a valuable resource, much too valuable to use it as fuel. Alternative sustainable types of energy have to be developed in future.
Not if the no one can afford to do so because of a depression. Will you feel the same if your employer goes out of business whatever bad things might happen?
_________________
"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:03 pm |
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TheDarkside
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 46
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quote:
Originally posted by Val
@TheDarkside: I must say that I agree with Roach. That accusation is extremely insulting. .
Insulting??? The only insult here is being dealt to yourselves if you believe innocent civilians will not get massacred by the impending bombing campaign against Iraq. Especially if American majority currently supports a war based on absolutely no evidence- that's the most absurd part of it all. [disclaimer: I am saying average citizen based on the various polls and the responses I am seeing around me- this is by no means scientific of course!  ]
But anyway, Roach- you mentioned something funny: "the life of the average Iraqi citizen would have a chance to improve! ". And a particular A-word you used comes in mind. What gives you the right to judge how the Iraqi's actually feel about their situation? Do you realize before American stepped in in 1991 Iraq had an extremely high standard of living with superb hospital care and education- all this under Saddam? People in Iraq have been marching in their streets in support of their country, not to demand Saddam to surrender! Ah but you do not see this on CNN do you? You will find information like this if you stop relying on information only from one party instead of hearing it from around the world. Otherwise I suggest you step off from your high leather-bound judge's chair.
[/i]
Last edited by TheDarkside on Fri Jan 31, 2003 12:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:10 pm |
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Seth
Last Man Standing
Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Posts: 1008
Location: Faerun |
Very nice, everybody has nice opinions, but what struck me the most why nobody looks a little bit ahead. There is a word “consequences” of every action you ever made. Unfortunately US don’t see it, because if they did they would never give chemical weapons to Iraq in the first place or arm Osama himself.
But this is peanuts anyway, let’s speculate what could happen in near future:
Voting in the UN council for war against Iraq goes contra US, but they go to war anyway, Iraqis generals have nothing to loose, use all they’ve got including some chemicals. US for good measure drop one or two small nukes (they promise, so you better keep their promises). Now all the Islamic countries would be pist.
And now where fun starts, China always wanted Taiwan, who’s going to stop it, and Russia would solve “a la” Russian way chechnian problem. Drop somewhere in the middle Korea, Pakistan and India and we have fireworks for long time, or not if we aren’t lucky.
So that pretty much describe next decade. Of course this is the worst case scenario, but you never know.
_________________
Money - An article which may be used as a universal passport to everywhere except heaven, and as a universal provider of everything except happiness. |
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 12:14 am |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 12:32 am |
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TheDarkside
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 46
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sauron38: Now that is funny! ROFL  |
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 12:43 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
I find it insulting that you are implying we're going there to commit genocide. Did I ever say that innocents would never be hurt? No. In fact, I said that innocents will probably get hurt. That's a hard fact of war. What I did say was that we will take great pains to avoid civilian casualties. We certainly won't be trying to harm civilians.
No evidence? Were you paying attention when Hans Blix said Iraq wasn't cooperating with the inspections? That there are huge gaps in the data provided by Iraq? That Iraq's report was nothing more than a paper-dump of busy work?
All that your other arguement proves is how worthless economic sanctions are at stopping dictators. And btw, it wasn't just the US that applied sanctions against Iraq.
As for the people in Iraq marching for the world to see? Well, you'd probably march too if a gun was pointed at your back. What's even more ironic are peace protestors here in the US who are getting Iraqi money for their "No blood for oil" signs.
And no, I don't watch CNN.
@Seth: I seriously doubt the US will ever use nuclear weapons unless we are attacked with a nuclear weapon on our own soil and the target for our weapons is identified as the one who used nuclear weapons against us.
@sauron38: For some reason, I just completely fail to see the humor in that.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:20 am |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
i havent read anything that is above in this post since i dont really give a damn about politics and all that crap, but i would like to say that i prefer to have concrete evidence, red-handed CONVINCING evidence, that Saudam is guilty before my country rushes into a war that could take many lives and likely years of fighting. I am all for "freeing" the people of Iraq from that jerky dictatorship, but i want to make sure that we do it for the right reasons.
EDIT -- i have been keeping up to date with the news, and i know that the president says that they have evidence, but i want to see this evidence, because i havent seen the evidence at all. i mean, how do i know if the white house is honest or not? how do i know that this isnt a post-9-11 trauma lash-out? because so far, i havent seen any evidence WHATSOEVER that Sadam is guilty as sin, and i am supposed to be "trusting" my leaders? i dont trust the government, spare me, but i have no reason to trust them with my money because they squander it like schoolchildren with $10 to buy candy with. So why should i trust the government that it is telling the truth? I DONT TRUST THEM so Bush had better give some pretty damn good evidence before he charges in like a freaking madman. Why is there this rush to get into Iraq and obliterate them? Its clear to me that there is SOMETHING VERY FISHY going on at the White House and throughout this entire country, that i dont trust them that they are not wanting to go to war, when it is BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that our MILITARY WANTS THIS WAR VERY BADLY. There i said it, go ahead and flame me  |
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:43 am |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
and one more thing, isnt it ironic that the son of a president becomes president and then attacks the same guy that his father didnt take out in the first place because he couldnt and now his son has the opportunity and wants to do it so badly that he cant hold it in, he just has to go a piss on sadam. sounds a little like family feud.
DAD -- damn, i missed! oh well...
SON -- hey dad, i wont miss! i'll get him for ya!
DAD -- sure son, go get him! you have my blessing!
SON -- sure thing! they wont say bush didnt miss the gore this time around!
GORE -- huh?
SON -- nothin. didnt say nothin.
DAD -- haha that was funny, son!
SON -- < whistles >
KAAAAAAAA-- BAMMMMMMM !!!
EDIT -- and another thing. i know a good friend of mine in utah that went to war in the persian gulf and he killed at least 300 iraqis and it FREAKED his mind up so badly that every time he hears firecrackers he leaps onto the ground and yells about grenades and crap. and i got drunk with my friend from utah and he told me all about that wars against iraq, and how much war sucks, when you see your best friend with a hole in his head and brains coming out, and he told me all about it so that i would know in this life THAT WAR IS HELL and we should AVOID IT AT ALL COSTS. and some of you people, my freakin fellow americans, want to start another war with iraq for SECRETIVE reasons? well go get them because i aint going to go get myself killed, you go ahead and die over in iraq, and YOU will know the meaning of SACRIFICE and the reasons why WAR SHOULDNT HAPPEN. it not only kills lives, it kills innocence. My friend in utah thinks he is a murderer and that he is going to burn in hell because of what he did over there in iraq. mind you, he killed 300 men and survived. and this guy protects his family against punks now, and can literally kill anyone in seconds, and nobody knows the EVIL THING that WAR is. "lets go to war" for UNDISCLOSED REASONS, indeed. So i want to know WHY this large country (usa) of freedom would get all crazy like a schizophrenic and make the huge mistake of overreacting, all the while KEEPING ITS TRUE MOTIVES SECRECT. at least hitler didnt keep HIS motives secret. at least we knew what he was about. but bush? he had better win my respect and give us some DAMN GOOD HARD EVIDENCE as to why i should HAVE MY BIG BROTHERS SENT OFF TO WAR and probably get killed. No thanx.
EDIT #2 -- and i have a younger brother who might get sent off to the war also, and if he gets killed over there i am gonna bust some heads in this country and they are going to know what it is to piss off a schizoaffective guy, lol. i already have one brother dead, i dont want two of them six feet under. WAR IS STUPIDITY ON THE FLY. War is idiocy and misery in the making. |
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:57 am |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
You guys do know that Saddam is trying to build nukes don't you? It doesn't matter how big you country is. It could easily be smuggled in and destroy a whole city.
_________________
"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:37 am |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
EVERYONE IS BUILDING NUKES. gimee a break. Any country that knows anything knows that having nukes is a political advantage and military boon. Everyone wants nukes, and my country (united states) has got MORE NUKES THAN EVERYBODY and it sits there and says that it wont let anyone else have nuclear weapons. That's just hypocrisy, the way i see it. I dont hate my country, i just dont trust them very much, because of their track record. Politicians are all corrupt; anyone that is in a position of power has got to TELL LIES to remain in power; there IS gray colors smudged all over humanity's leaders, because a position of power is gained by sifting through gray matters of decisions. Any president of a country should be and probably is presented with many possible sides of the situation and those sides are what creates the GRAY AREAS of decision-making. If everything was good and evil, like Bush claims, then that is evidence that he is ignoring certain options entirely. All the actions of this presidential administration are being made to back up their initial stances so that they will appear favorably in the eyes of the people, so that they might be re-elected. Sure, politicians care, but they mostly care about politics. That is the case in any country. Its human nature to corrupt any human construct that is being made to govern over or influence other people. Power is ability to affect other people, and power is easily corruptable through gray areas of hard decision-making. President Bush has lost my trust because he is construing these situations as being black and white, while they clearly are not !!! THAT is why i dont trust my government. THAT is why the evidence to be presented next week had better be very convincing, or else i will not choose to vote for Bush in the next election. That is my opinion. |
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:53 am |
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TheDarkside
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 46
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quote:
Originally posted by Val
I find it insulting that you are implying we're going there to commit genocide. Did I ever say that innocents would never be hurt? No. In fact, I said that innocents will probably get hurt. That's a hard fact of war. What I did say was that we will take great pains to avoid civilian casualties. We certainly won't be trying to harm civilians.
No evidence? Were you paying attention when Hans Blix said Iraq wasn't cooperating with the inspections? That there are huge gaps in the data provided by Iraq? That Iraq's report was nothing more than a paper-dump of busy work?
So, in the Court of Val you will justify the slaughter (no need for euphemysms here) of countless civilians because Iraq has several episodes of not fully cooperating with the weapons inspectors? Namely being the disagreement over scientists being interviewed. Now Val, try hard to put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi... there is a country trying real hard to dig up some dirt to declare war on your country.. Would you in your right mind meet alone with several representatives fo this country? That would be ludicrous! But please, listen to yourself- 'huge gaps in the data provided...', 'not cooperating...': do you really believe this justifies the death penalty? Would I be put ond eath row because I don't cooperate with cops who claim without evidence that an alibai of mine has holes in it? Where are your values?
And where are we getting this whole "gun to their backs" ideas? It's amazing how a few people who hold high positions in our government can just come up with something like that and people beleive it as if it was a decree from God himself. Please make an attempt to interpret and analyze things before you go believing them. |
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:12 am |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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quote:
Originally posted by TheDarkside
Insulting??? The only insult here is being dealt to yourselves if you believe innocent civilians will not get massacred by the impending bombing campaign against Iraq.
Yes very. I believe the sum total of lives lost in this war (civilian and military alike) will be dwarfed by the number of Iraqi citizens saved.
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
...and it sits there and says that it wont let anyone else have nuclear weapons. That's just hypocrisy, the way i see it.
Then it’s the UN’s hypocrisy not just the US’s.
quote:
Originally posted by TheDarkside
Ah but you do not see this on CNN do you? You will find information like this if you stop relying on information only from one party instead of hearing it from around the world.
Otherwise I suggest you step off from your high leather-bound judge's chair.
To everyone saying that there is no evidence that Saddam is still killing his own people, and especially to TheDarkside for that last comment. Why don’t you do your research? I’ll give you a great place to start, try looking for information about the UN’s oil-for-food program, and what Saddam does with that food while he claims that the US is starving his people due to the UN sanctions.
Last edited by Roach on Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:19 am |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
EVERYONE IS BUILDING NUKES. gimee a break...
Indeed, and the world is trying to stop it. If you want every loose cannon country with nukes, then you are helping with your indifference. Sure, US has nukes, and it was a big mistake to build them in the first place but it is not so easy to undo. Countries like Iraq would possibly give them to terrorists. This is not a problem to you? Just let them do it 'cause everybody is too?
Jeez, I've never heard so many lame excuses.
_________________
"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:22 am |
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ballistic
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Dec 2002
Posts: 44
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"The might is always right." |
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:41 am |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
quote:
Originally posted by Jung
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
EVERYONE IS BUILDING NUKES. gimee a break...
Indeed, and the world is trying to stop it. If you want every loose cannon country with nukes, then you are helping with your indifference. Sure, US has nukes, and it was a big mistake to build them in the first place but it is not so easy to undo. Countries like Iraq would possibly give them to terrorists. This is not a problem to you? Just let them do it 'cause everybody is too?
Jeez, I've never heard so many lame excuses.
Do you usually take one sentence, taken out of context, and comment on it, while ignoring entirely the rest of the message?
I'm not indifferent about nuclear weapons, i am rabid. What gave you the idea of that? Have you ignored everything i have been saying? I hate the fact that ANYONE has nukes. Nobody should have nukes. I was just stating that it seemed a tad hypocritical or ironic for the USA to be pissed at everyone else that has nukes, while we have the biggest collection of nukes in the entire world! That was what i was saying. I was not belittling my country or anyone. Why did you have to say i have lame excuses?
Now i understand that if Iraq has got WoMDs, then they should be taken away. What i have been saying, for the past 3 posts, is essentially that War is Not a Good Thing, and that we should try very very hard to avoid it, and i have also been implying that IF SADDAM HAS GOT NUKES, he should be removed from his seat of power; But if Saddam DOESNT have nukes, and if the president and his cabinet is only looking for a politically-motivated EXCUSE TO START A WAR, i.e. if they dont give sufficient evidence to convince me that i should TRUST THEM, then that is what is WRONG with this whole situation. Do you get it now? Sheesh. |
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:46 am |
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