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Brak
City Guard
Joined: 06 Dec 2001
Posts: 146
Location: Tucson, AZ USA |
Warning - long rant - I think Gamespot hit below the belt and it is possible that they only played the demo. However, I think that of the rest of the reviews I've read, the lukewarm to posititive mix of reviews are warranted. I love this game, it is absolutely my favorite RPG. But let's also be honest about a few things:
When a reviewer reviews a title, they are supposed to be a voice for the average user. The average user does not typically come to fan sites on the web nor should they have to to figure out how to - move certain amounts of items in a trading screen - get past a bugged gate - use a skill, like pickpocket - and several other examples of things that are not in the manual and can only be found on sites and message boards like this. Look at the topics that were on these boards a month ago when the game first game out and compare those topics to those found on other gaming boards...I have never seen a board so full of questions that never should have been neccesary to ask. Just because you are the kind of gamer that is willing to look for this information, even though you should never have to, is not an excuse to dismiss these kinds of problems. Properly documenting HOW to play the game is fundamental to allowing your users to enjoy learning to play it.
The controls are a similar situation. Just because you took they time to learn a clunky at best interface, does not make it good or something that should be ignored in a review. And to simply call it different is ignoring the truth. Again, some people have unfairly criticized the controls, because they played the demo, which didn't support mouse control. But the truth is, they still could have done a much better job with the controls. I have done user interface design work for a software development company and I can't tell you how many ignorant programers made the mistake of saying the controls they designed were plenty user friendly simply because they had gotten used to them. Every time I ran a usability test on the application in question, new users invariably had no idea how to accomplish many tasks. The unfortunate truth about innovation and ease of use is that part of making an interface easy to use means that you must respect conventions of applications your target audience has previously used. Yes, this means innovation suffers, but you can't expect to have a commercially viable product that has control systems that are better in every way yet completely alien to everyone who tries to use them (unless you properly show the user how to use these new controls, through documentaion or a training area). And this is where the complaints about Gothic's control system are well founded, not only are they a departure from what users have seen and used but they are also a step backward and far from innovative in many ways. Where is my drag & drop interface for inventory and trading, why must almost every action be bound to a key combination? The developers certainly could have designed a way for me to pick something up off the ground by simply clicking my mouse. The hallmark of poor interface design is when new users can't figure it out, and experienced users say you just have to get used to it. How long did it take you to "get used to" a drag & drop interface the first time you saw it...that was truly innovative enough to be easier to use than previous methods, thus justifying it's being different. There is a reason that many interface conventions become standard, it is because they were truly helpful innovations when they were first seen and they are proven to work.
Under the poor documentation (a serious problem by the way) and sad control system this is the greatest game I have ever played. But when a reviewer is trying to be an advocate for the average gamer (not just FPS shooter fans, but people who don't neccesarily feel like searching the web to learn how to play and to get past some game-halting bugs) I would agree with statements that make it seem like it could have been the greatest RPG around but just fell short. Yes, like many things in life those of us who have searched for the answers and learned the hard way have been rewarded for our efforts with this great gaming experience called Gothic, but that does not make it an superbly produced game on the whole.
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I have a magic toe-nail, I keep it on my foot
Brak |
Thu Jan 10, 2002 4:32 pm |
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Baalcipher
Humanoid Typhoon
Joined: 30 Dec 2001
Posts: 844
Location: Industrial Wasteland, USA |
Yeah. The reviewer said he would prefer clicking the cursor over the fps controls.
He probably expected Gothic to have controls like Summoner.
Personally, the one-target targeting system for melee weapons was bad for Gothic.
The sword should be able to swipe at multiple targets simultaneously, especially when getting gang-raped by a bunch of enemies.
A true gamer can forgive this mistake(and others), however I see TIME RESTRAINTS to be a serious problem as games get bigger and more complex in the near future.
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Thu Jan 10, 2002 5:15 pm |
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Baalcipher
Humanoid Typhoon
Joined: 30 Dec 2001
Posts: 844
Location: Industrial Wasteland, USA |
quote:
On 2002-01-10 02:24, Anonymous wrote:
The problem is that most of the teeny world wants to play Counter-Strike and nothing else.
Why?
Because its easy to play (boring real quick)
and easy to hack (stupid people think it's ok to cheat)
I think us old skoolers are outnumbered by generation Y losers.
Counter-Strike is the worst thing that ever happened to gaming.
Look out! generation Z is on the horizon! These kids will pur month-long games on terrabyte capacity discs and resurrect Jesus from a grain of sand!!
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Thu Jan 10, 2002 5:22 pm |
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Guest
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FYI, I just started playing and the controls are freaking AWFUL. It took me 5 minutes just to be able to pick up the stupid pickaxe because I apparently wasn't close enough/far enough away to use the action key.
From what I've seen, the world looks very cool, but I quit playing yesterday after 30 minutes because I was so frustrated with the control scheme (and it's not even totally customizable).
It sucks to say it, but a bad interface can ruin an otherwise amazing game. But, because of all the positive things I've read I'm going to keep playing Gothic until I get so frustrated I want to rip my eyes out and pour hot molten lava onto my brain. |
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Thu Jan 10, 2002 5:51 pm |
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Shrapnel
Rocket Scientist
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 1325
Location: Newark, NJ |
Well, here goes:
I've been gaming since my Commodore 64 (almost 20 years now...DAMN!!) I was around when games like Phantasie, Defender of the Crown, Ultima 1 (ONE!!!)Road Wars, and Bards Tale were around...back in those days, there was no OnLine forums, no message boards, no hotlines to call for an answer or a quick fix...you had a manual (IF THAT)
and Good Luck. And it wasnt about the grpahics at all...it was about the story and the gameplay. I can remember trudging around in an area for *days* until I found that door, or key to the next area.
Back then it wasnt about how fast we could hack the game, or cheat it...just finishing it was a glorious enough reason.
I think it comes down to patience. FPS are top dog cause you just point and shoot...no learning curve, no need to understand the story, or the mechanics or whats going on...all twitch gaming:
Kill or be killed. Then restart.
Todays gamers dont want to learn, or have the patience to try and understand a game. They just want to be on top. Whether it be through cracks, or hacks, or cheats or dupes. Whatever it takes, dont matter to them.
Plus these gamemakers still thinks its just KIDS playing these games. Kids with short attention spans. So they keep the learning curves very low, the graphics very bright and colorful, and load the game itself with tons of cheat codes, cracks and what have you.
So now that I think about it: Yea. Gothic's controls *DID* suck. But to me, that was the most Smallest of details because I could see the potential in the game! Mind you this was still while I was playing the demo.
Point Im trying to make is:
These are still games, and even though there are gamers well into their 20s and 30s, producers are gonna go for what they think their largest market (age: 12-17) is gonna want to see:
Big bright graphics, easy to play, mindless fun for hours.
Nothing we can do about that, except to continue to support those who make games for people who want to succeed through thought and not cheat codes/ hacks/ and dupes
*shrug*
Game makers should try and get an idea of their market. Everytime I go to buy a game (CompUSA, Electronics botique, Software City, etc etc) I feel like Im in a hardware store or something...Bunch of men in their 20s and 30s walking through the aisles browsing games...I look over at the PS2 and Xbox area and THATS where I see the 12-17 yr olds...
oh well.
[ This Message was edited by: Shrapnel on 2002-01-10 12:27 ] |
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Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:22 pm |
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Brak
City Guard
Joined: 06 Dec 2001
Posts: 146
Location: Tucson, AZ USA |
Testify BaalCipher! Last night my axe was clearly cutting a path that should have been doing damage to two or three enemies at a time, but since the one enemy I had "targeted" had run behind his buddies I was doing damage to no-one. Good AI that he was trying to evade my attacks, but bad combat system that only allows me to do damage to one "targeted" enemy at a time during melee.
Now when I said why can't I just pick something up with a mouse click, I didn't neccesarily mean what that reviewer meant. Like there should be a curser on screen a la BG2 or something so I could just click on something 20 feet away from me and rely on pathfinding to walk me over to the item and pick it up. I kind of like the notion that I have to walk my character up to an object and have a look at it before I can pick it up. But when the object is in focus, there is only one action that can be performed on the object. That is to pick it up. But I have to hold down the mouse button while pushing the up key. Ridiculous! One possible action should equal one keystroke (or button click). Geez, I love this game so much because there are so many great things that can be said about it, I shouldn't be harshing on it's imperfections so badly...see I'm allowed to have blind love & loyalty for my game, a reviewer shouldn't have that luxury.
_________________
I have a magic toe-nail I keep it on my foot
Brak
[ This Message was edited by: Brak on 2002-01-10 12:50 ] |
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Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:24 pm |
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Please PB do not change the control system now that we are all trained in using it! And the simple combat system is AWESOME. I really like standing toe to toe and pulling off a two handed overhead swing, followed by a spin around the back swing, followed by the kill shot...oh yeah! That is what mastering a game is all about. |
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Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:42 pm |
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Alistair
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 151
Location: Cambridge, England |
Something no-one seems to have mentioned is that the control system is more or less the same as Tomb Raider's, i.e. arrow keys to move, with ctrl & alt as modifiers. It's expanded a bit to allow for more inventory handling of course. However, the key point is, that like Tomb Raider, the game wasn't designed to be played with a mouse. Mouse support was added at the last minute, and not very well. Using both hands on the keyboard makes everything work much better.
Oh, and, you do damage things you don't have in focus if you hit them, you just don't see the damage meters... |
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Sun Feb 03, 2002 9:19 am |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
I agree to that
... Counterstrike ruined the (multiplayer) games world, hell, even my hubby is crazy for the admittedly boring game
... Looking Glass didn't deserve their fate. Even though I once admired John Romero for what he did (jeez, I love 3D shooters as well), I was only too happy when Daikatana flopped on its back and Deus Ex (which was Warren Spector's like, um, Thief and System Shock and so on) was soaring high in the charts.
The more I love the fact that they ARE doing Thief 3, not LG but at least some of the people... and Romero had to go.
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Sun Feb 03, 2002 9:40 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Maybe and just sometime it is important to know what mark does average game get on certain magazine (somewhere is 70% really bad, somewhere is 70% not perfect, but good).
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Sun Feb 03, 2002 12:25 pm |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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I feel I need to defend PART of generation Y, because I unfortunatly fit into that designation. Not all of gen Y are the brittney spears and nsync loveing little idiots. Hmm, now that I think about it, why am I trying to defend gen Y, why don't we just change the designation, so that myself at 20 and those a year or two behind me can be concidered gen X. I think with those my age the biggest reason people aren't playing is becuase they simply haven't heard of the game. I spend a great deal of time on gameing web sites, so I was exited about the game before it came out in the US, but when I've recomended the game to friends, none of them have ever heard of it. This game could be far more successful if it just had a little publicity. |
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Sun Feb 03, 2002 4:26 pm |
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Guest
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I was told I had potential once too. But I didnt make the Olympics, so I guess everyone didnt agree on that. If they had, I would have been a Star!
If anything, this games semi-success should propel the developers into greater success in the future, I hope. If they dont learn from mistakes, then surely they will be gone tomorrow. |
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Wed Feb 06, 2002 5:37 pm |
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