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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Originally posted by piln
Apologies if I came accross as too argumentative or rubbed anyone up the wrong way.
Apologies to you too.
As for Michael C's list... Nice work. I think something like this could work, although I have a few things to point out.
quote:
Originally posted by Michael C
1. Development of main story (Killing foes is not counting as story development)
1.1 Story develops during few (Max 10) milestones
1.2 Story develops often: over 10 times during game
1.3 Story develops very often (Over 30 times during game)
1.4 Story changes end goal a few times (Max 5 times)
1.5 Story changes end goal several times (over 5 times)
1.6 Story twist and turns end goal many times (Over 10 times during game)
I don't think that a story that twists and turns many times, regardless of player action isn't necessarily better than a one with a pretty clear path from the beginning.
Player influence on the story is what should give points.
quote:
1.4 More than 1 profession (Either from beginning or during development)
1.5 Several professions (Over 3) (Either from beginning or during development)
1.6 Many professions (Over 6) (Either from beginning or during development)
This part should be split, IMO, because it is mainly for a class-based system. But what about a skill-based one? Neither of the two is much better than the other.
As for Societies, I think it should be expanded for more NPCs:
Like:
3.5 At least over 75 interactive NPCs
3.6 At least over 100 interactive NPCs
quote:
2. Dialogue complexity
2.1 Player have topics to conversations
2.2 Players topic choices can have permanent consequences.
2.3 NPC’s offer more topics, as specific topics are being triggered.
2.4 NPC’s offer new topics depending on players reputation or actions.
2.5 Player can try add his/her own topics.
2.6 NPC’s have a big contribution to (main) stories
I think you should add:
2.7 NPC's offer more topics/dialogue options based on the character's attributes (intelligence, charisma etc)
2.8 NPC's offer more topics/dialogue options based on the character's dialogue/interaction skills
2.9 NPC's offer different topics/dialogue options based on the character's class
quote:
4.1 NPC’s are accessible depending on night & day cycle
4.2 NPC’s move around on locations
4.3 Many NPC’s are doing their daily business.
I would have added:
4.4 NPCs remember what you say and do/said and what you've done
4.5 NPCs change their attitude according to what you say and do/said and what you've done
There should be points for more choices to travel than just by walking/running (teleport, mounts and/or vehicles)!
quote:
3.1 Gameworld offers for the most part of it freedom to visit from the beginning!
3.2 Gameworld offers more than one physical path to most locations.
I think there should be an addition:
3.3 Gameworld does not offer "zones", but a constant, limitless world
quote:
4.12 Visual 3D world
4.13 First person or shoulder look available.
4.14 Characters or NPC’s can change appearance.
4.13 should be, IMO: More than one camera angle available.
quote:
3.5 Traps needs more than character skills to eliminate
Not sure I agree with this. I think they should. Plus, traps and locks should vary in difficulty etc, and they should yield exp/skill training.
quote:
6.1 Player can control more than 1 character.
6.2 Player can at least control 3 characters at one time (party)
6.3 Player can continuously change characters if he likes!
Hmmm... I can't agree with this. Having more or less characters doesn't affect gameplay, nor does it drag down on the RPG-ism of the game. It's just a choice by the devs.
As for skills, I'd say there should be point for "extra" skills, like climbing, fishing, craftsmanship etc. and that they should yield exp/skill training.
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Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:07 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
 Wow - what a list! More criteria than you can shake a stick at!
That looks like a good way of going about it... maybe there's one or two criterea that could do with tweaking or changing, but on the whole I think it's pretty good. As a way of measuring "CRPGness," I think it still might have problems, but as a basis for review scores I think it could work... one suggestion I would make is to leave out the final step...
Each of the categories seems capable of giving an indication of the type and depth of feautures, in a relatively unbiased way. But by averaging them for the final score, the system assumes that a particular "mix" of RPG elements is more "CRPG" than another - and as this thread & many others have shown, few players agree totally on which components provide a real RPG experience.
For example (I'll try to suggest views here that I believe exist in this community), Player A may think combat and stat/skill development (as well as other criteria) are the most important parts of RPGs, and that the more depth these aspects have, the better the RPG; he/she may also think that, while a good story is enjoyable, it makes little difference to "RPGness." Player B may think that combat is incidental to the overall RPG experience (again, as long as other elements are in place), and that character development is important, but not as important as player freedom and a changeable story.
So, let's say game X meets 100% of the criterea for Story and Gameworld, and only 30% for Combat. The first two will boost its score, but the game is only going to satisfy Player B's RPG tastes, not Player A's. Game Y has 100% for Combat, 40-50% for everything else; the overall score will be swayed positively due to elements that mean little to Player B. If Game Z gets a 90% average rating, both players will expect to enjoy it, but the specifc mix could mean that the game is not regarded as "RPG-like" by one (or both) of them.
So I think each category could represent differing views as to what makes a good RPG, and be presented as-is. Here's an example prompted by the previous discussion: one scale could show the degree of realtime/reflex-based action in a game (1 being turn-based with action determined by stat calculations only, 10 being entirely realtime with no influence from character ability) - I would probably accept anything up to 7, maybe even 8, and still find myself having a satisfying RPG experience, others may not feel the same way if the score went over 3 (you could reverse the scale's numerical values, it wouldn't matter). Rather than trying to decide what's good or bad for overall RPG-ness, I think it would be better to let each player decide for themselves what they want to see in an RPG, and allow them to disregard the categories that don't matter to them. CRPGers opinions and tastes may be too diverse to go beyond that. |
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Thu Jan 29, 2004 9:23 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
I still think the game needs to be an rpg to be considered an rpg. Max Payne has all the elements of a great FPS but is in 3rd person view so cannot be an FPS. A criteria of first person shooters is that they be in first person. I do not know if max payne has a first person mode or not, I just saw some screen shots, but lets asume it didn't for the sake of argument.
The mental or "mind" factor will never be taken out of role-playing games. Pen and paer or computer. Without the mental factor you have something to watch. You are suposed to play the role: create a character and imbue it with life and personality and character. The game world sets rules and parameters to play in, whether its pen and paper or crpg. P&P have a dm that controls the rules and application of the rules. A game is limited in its capacity to do that so it provides the tools for you to role-play a character.
Lets say I create an archer character and the dm says, "lets make this boring rolling of the dice fun. Lets have you shoot this elastic (or rubber band depending on what part of the world you are from) at a can from here to see if your character hits an enemy." So you go along. It is really hard to hit the can with a rubber band at that distcance though. When you level up you move closer to the target and the target gets bigger. When you get magic bows you get to switch to a sling shot and then a wrist-rocket. It is a lot more fun and involving way to play an archer and you are glad your friend thought of this. But you have no relation to the character you created. When you hit a target, you as yourself hit the target, not the character you were supposed to be playing the role of. Therefore you did not play a role, and we can deduce that you did not play a roleplaying game.
Roleplay is a very definite term with the work acting or act in it. You need your mind to act and play a role. The mind will always be a factor, that cannot be any other way. When I played wizardry 6 and 7, especially 7, I had a very hard time with the puzzles. I had a super high inteligent wizard in my party though that wouldn't help me out. Games were alot more restrained then, but I did have the tools to roleplay the situation; the Sirtech help hotline. My super smart wizard would have known what to do, right? I was personally just a stupid 14 year old kid (I'm still stupid though, look at my signature).
Games evevolved and good rpgs usually put restraints on your mental abilities in game, like the radscorp test in FO2, or dialogue in ToEE (or FO1/2). SWG said it best when they said all they can do is give you the tools to roleplay, the rest is up to the player. Just like the guys above that created an archer character, he could of roleplayed him, but he didn't, even though they had the tools.
A good game is a good game, but an rpg is an rpg. There are good and bad rpgs, good and bad games. Is an El Camino a car or a truck? Or is it something different? What a bout a Caravan? Can a 3rd person game be an FPS? Can a RTS have turnbase? How could you play yourself in a roleplaying game?
Sorry about all the spelling errors. Its late. This post didn't come out sounding the way I wanted it to at all. It was a lot better in my head.
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Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:56 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
I hear you loud and clear, Roqua. At the same time, I think it's valid to have sub-genres like action-RPG and hybrids which I stick a lot of "RPGs" into. By extension then, they're still RPGs - just not "pure" ones.
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Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:11 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Hexy: Thanx for the interesting comments, You have many valid points, and I will make a new list with your suggestions incoorporated. Just give me a little time to think your suggestions through.
Piln: My list was a suggestion list for you to comment, and I certainly do not consider it finished, I hoped for some suggestions, and Hexy has already started helping me polishing the list.
Regarding your suggestion for the final score, I couldn't agree more, I also prefer a result like this:
EX:
Game : Dungeon Siege
CRPG-Scores:
Story: 35%
Character(s) 45%
NPC´s 20%
Gameworld 22%
Manipulation 65%
Combat 62%
Overall CRPScore 41%
The individual score in each category says a lot more about the games strong CRPG features than the final overall score. The final score is just a kind of "figurehead" value for comparing against other games, and perhaps actually determine if the game should have a status as CRPG, we can always discuss each categories impact on this final score.
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Fri Jan 30, 2004 12:54 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
Sure, I wasn't trying to nit-pick or anything. The first draft is undoubtedly an impressive piece of work  . The only things on the list that I personally would drop are 1.1 and 1.2 under Combat/Pace, and I agree with Hexy about the "party" section. Other than that, there's not much on the list that I'd suggest changing without seeing the current system tested. I like the Dungeon Siege example, although I didn't play a great deal of that game, so I can't really judge.
Roqua, I can see where you're coming from, believe me, but I think it's just down to balancing issues in each individual game. Like you said, a good designer/player/GM can ensure that any discrepancy between players' and their characters' mental abilities will not dilute the experience. I believe that problems with players' action-gaming skills can be avoided in exactly the same way - it all depends on execution. One game may ask me to select an attack mode then click on my target (in either realtime or frozen turn-time), another may ask me to move and fight in a more hands-on way; as long as my own abilities (mental and physical) are negligible compared to my character's, I don't see that either system is inherently more "RPG-like" than the other, I just see different ways of acheiving the same end. |
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Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:54 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by piln
Sure, I wasn't trying to nit-pick or anything. The first draft is undoubtedly an impressive piece of work . The only things on the list that I personally would drop are 1.1 and 1.2 under Combat/Pace, and I agree with Hexy about the "party" section. Other than that, there's not much on the list that I'd suggest changing without seeing the current system tested. I like the Dungeon Siege example, although I didn't play a great deal of that game, so I can't really judge.
Hey, I was not complaining, I do want you to "nit-pick" the list, that's the only way to get it better. 
The dungeon siege example was just an unproved example, meaning I didn't actual use the system, just imagined how the final scores maybe could look 
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Mon Feb 02, 2004 9:21 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Version 1.01
RPG enhancing elements are divided into 6 major categories:
1. Story. A well written twisting and possible changing main story is a core element in a good CRPG, and many interesting side stories is also a plus.
2. Characters. The Character(s), you are going to role-play, and your possibility, to influence their development and actions.
3. NPC’s. The AI’s you are going to role-play “against” (for). How complex and diverse are they compared to real characters.
4.Gameworld. Size, does it feel real, different environments, Nature, day cycles, season’s change, everything that makes the world more believable and real, for the best immerse experience.
5. Manipulation. Everything about items, weapons etc, interactive environment, How big is the “to do” list during the game (Freedom of choices).
6. Combat. Speaks for it self.
Under each category, I have made several “features”, which all should be answered with a Yes or a No compared to the games features, and for every Yes answer, the game gets another point towards a higher CRPG-Score.
In the end all points in each category can be counted together and divided with the number of features in each category to give the game a final CPG- Score in each category.
Suggestions for a CRPG-feature list
STORY:
1. Development of main story (Killing foes is not counting as story development)
1.1 Main story develops during few (Max 10) milestones
1.2 Main story develops often: over 10 times during game
1.3 Main story develops very often (Over 30 times during game)
1.4 Main story changes end goal a few times (Max 5 times)
1.5 Main story changes end goal several times (over 5 times)
1.6 Player can change main story depending on actions (Not just develop, but takes another path)
1.7 Player can change main story, more than once.
2. Main story complexity (Main story path possibilities)
2.1 Story is more than complete linear
2.2 Story have more then 3 major paths during game
2.3 Story have more than 5 major paths during game
3. Player impact on story (Players influence on story variations)
3.1 Player can during actions change story path.
3.2 Players action twist the story considerable (more than 5 times)
3.3 Players action twist a lot (More than 10 times)
4. Story endings (Losing the end battle is not an alternative ending).
4.1 More than 1 ending
4.2 More than 3 different endings.
4.3 More than 7 different endings.
4.4 Different endings is chosen before than the last 5 hours of gameplay!
5. Optional stories/quests (Numbers, Development, complexity, player impact)
5.1 Optional stories is possible.
5.2 Several optional stories (Over 5)
5.3 Many optional stories (Over 15)
5.4 Plenty of optional stories (Over 25)
5.5 Optional stories got further development
5.6 More optional stories got further development (Over 5)
5.7 Many optional stories got further development (Over 12)
5.8 Over 25 % of optional stories is more than just “kill this” or “get that” or “bring this”.
5.9 Over 50 % of optional stories are more than just “kill this” or “get that” or “bring this”.
5.10 Player have impact on optional stories (more than just doing them or not)
5.11 In over 25% of side stories player have impact on development!
6. Background material possible for extensive story readers (Ex books, events, dialogues)
6.1 A few possible times to get extra material (Over 3)
6.2 Many possible times to get extra material (Over 15)
6.3 Plenty of times to get extra material (Over 30)
NUMBER OF CRITERIAS: 31
CHARACTERS:
1. Character choices (Must have impact on game-play, not only visual changes)
1.1 More than one race
1.2 Several races (Over 3)
1.3 Many different races (Over 6)
1.4 More than 1 profession (Different skills) (Either from beginning or during development)
1.5 Several professions (Different skills) (Over 3) (Either from beginning or during development)
1.6 Many professions (Different skills) (Over 6) (Either from beginning or during development)
2. Character development complexity (Not armour or weapon upgrade).
2.1 More than 3 different attributes to develop (skills/attributes/traits/pegs or alike)
2.2 More than 7 different attributes to develop
2.3 More than 15 different attributes to develop
2.4 There are skills available not related to combat, magic or thief skills.
2.5 Development of at least 3 different attributes happens over 10 times (3x10=30 upgrades)
2.6 Development of at least 3 different attributes happens over 20 times (3x20=60 upgrades)
2.7 Development of at least 3 different attributes happens over 30 times (3x30=90 upgrades)
(Note: adding Ex. 5 points to an attribute at one time is only 1 upgrade).
3. Impact on societies (reputation, guilds, fractions. (Not killing societies!))
3.1 Player have impact on other societies (at least 2)
3.2 Player have impact on at least 5 different societies
3.3 Player have a reputation which have impact on gameplay.
3.4 Player has a different reputation, which have impact on gameplay in different societies.
3.5 Player can be member of groups (Guilds, movements, orders or alike)
3.6 Player can change status (reputation, rang) in groups.
3.7 At least 3 different groups available
3.8 At least 5 different groups available.
NUMBER OF CRITERIAS: 21
NPC's
1. Professions
1.1 Traders or merchants available
1.2 Other NPC’s offering the player alternatives to dialogues (Healers, teachers etc.)
2. Dialogue complexity
2.1 Player have topics to conversations
2.2 Players topic choices can have permanent consequences.
2.3 NPC’s offer more topics, as specific topics are being triggered.
2.4 NPC’s offer new topics depending on player’s reputation or actions.
2.5 NPC's offer more topics/dialogue options based on the character's attributes (intelligence, charisma etc)
2.6 NPC's offer different topics/dialogue options based on the character's class
2.7 Player can try adding his/her own topics.
2.8 NPC’s have a big contribution to (main) stories
2.9 NPCs remember what you say and do/said and what you've done.
3. Societies (NPC amount and variations)
3.1 Many NPC’s belongs to different societies.
3.2 At least 3 different societies exists (At least 5 people/creatures in each society)
3.3 At least 5 different societies exists (At least 5 people/creatures in each society)
3.4 At least over 20 different interactive NPC’s
3.5 At least over 50 different interactive NPC’s
3.6 At least over 100 Different Interactive NPC’s
4. Aliveness (Not standing around doing nothing, but during their daily business)
4.1 NPC’s are accessible depending on night & day cycle
4.2 NPC’s move around on locations
4.3 Many NPC’s are doing their daily business.
NUMBER OF CRITERIAS: 19
GAMEWORLD
1. Size (No teleporting, fighting or magic must influence the travel, just walk/run)
1.1 Over 5 minutes of real-time to get from one end of gameworld to another (No teleporting)
1.2 Over 10 minutes of real-time to get from one end of gameworld to another (No teleporting)
1.3 Over 15 minutes of real-time to get from one end of gameworld to another (No teleporting)
2. Area variations (An Area is a physical big location with it’s own unique living beings and nature)
2.1 More than 1 major different area in the game
2.2 At least 3 major different areas in the game
2.3 At least 7 major different areas in the game
3. Freedom (Exploring)
3.1 Gameworld offers for the most part of it freedom to visit from the beginning!
3.2 Gameworld offers more than one physical path to most locations.
3.3 Gameworld does not offer "zones", but a constant, limitless world
4. Time, elements and misc.
4.1 Night & day cycle
4.2 Night & day cycle have impact on gameplay/gameworld
4.3 Seasons
4.4 Seasons have impact on gameplay/gameworld
4.5 Weather differences
4.6 Weather can change on same location.
4.7 Weather conditions have impact on gameplay/gameworld
4.8 Game offers natural disasters/happenings!
4.9 A few Sound effects make the gameworld more alive.
4.10 Many sound effects make the gameworld more alive.
4.11 Sound effects are mostly directional (surround alike)
4.12 Visual 3D world
4.13 should be, IMO: More than one camera angle available.
4.14 Characters or NPC’s can change appearance.
NUMBER OF CRITERIAS: 23
MANIPULATION
1. Interactive elements (Barrels, doors, water etc. (Not including any collectible items of any kind)
1.1 There are interactive elements in the game
1.2 There are at least 3 different interactive elements in the game
1.3 There are at least 6 different interactive elements in the game
1.4 There are at least 10 different interactive elements in the game
2. Item complexity (Amount, combinations, use variations)
2.1 At least 3 different types of items available (Armour is one type & weapons another type)
2.2 At least 6 different types of items available
2.3 At least 50 different items available.
2.4 At least 200 different items available.
2.5 At least 500 different items available.
2.6 At least 1000 different items available.
2.7 Custom items available
2.8 At least 5 different custom items available.
2.9 At least 10 different custom items available.
2.10 At least 20 different custom items available.
2.11 A few items (At least 5) got more than 1function
2.12 More items (At least 25) got more than 1function
2.13 Many items (At least 100) got more than 1function
3. Interactive brain teasers (Traps, switches, locks, levers etc)
3.1 Traps are available (Not creature ambushes or alike)
3.2 Traps have more solutions (At least 2) to eliminate or bypass
3.3 At least 3 different traps available (Not in effect, but the way to remove)
3.4 At least 6 different traps available (Not in effect, but the way to remove)
3.5 Traps needs more than character skills to eliminate
3.6 Game contains switches and levers of any kind.
3.7 Switches and levers do often offer brain gymnastic for more than just finding them!
3.8 Locks are available
3.9 Locks needs more than character skills to unlock
3.10 Other brain puzzles available than Traps, switches, locks, levers and alike
4. Assignments (To do list)
4.1 Journal, or own notes should for most of the game time offer a good amount of assignments (At least 10 different)
4.2 Journal, or own notes should for most of the game time offer a good amount of assignments (At least 20 different)
5. Environment change possibility.
5.1 Player can change environment (By magic or explosions or just chop down trees)
5.2 Player can change at least 3 different elements in an environment!
NUMBER OF CRITERIAS: 31
COMBAT
1. Pace
1.1 You can break away from real-time combat (At least pause, and give new orders)
1.2 Turn/phase based combat is available
2. Action possibilities (Magic, Weapon, items, Using environment (Hide, Cover, traps etc)
2.1 Character(s) can do melee attack / defence
2.2 Character(s) can do ranged attack/ defence
2.3 Character(s) can do Magical (unnatural) attack/ defence
2.4 Character(s) can hide or cover in shadows or behind physical objects
2.5 Character(s) can use recovering items during combat
2.6 Character(s) can use other (than recovering) items during combat
3. Enemy complexity
3.1 Over 10 different enemies (offering different combat tactics)
3.2 Over 25 different enemies
3.3 Over 50 different enemies
3.4 Enemies must have other options than attacking the closest character
NUMBER OF CRITERIAS: 12
The RPG-feature score in each category will be in “%” & determined by the number of criteria’s a game can fulfil in each category compared to the actual number of criterias in each category
like:
# = Number of criterias checked in each category
Story: #/30X100 = Score%
Characters: #/20X100= Score%
NPC’s: #/16X100= Score%
Gameworld: #/22X100= Score%
Manipulation: #/33X100= Score%
Combat: #/12X100=Score%
Totally Score: (Story score%+ Characters score%+ NPC’s score%+ Gameworld score%+ Manipulation score% + Combat score%)/6 = CRPG- score%
A suggestion for a score table for both each category and total score:
RPG No 0-9% (Defently, no CRPG- element worth mentioning, No Hybrid toward CRPG, No CRPG)
RPG Ultra light 10-19% (No CRPG, But MAYBE a hybrid but with vague CRPG elements and basis in another genre)
RPG Light 20-39% (No CRPG, but defently a hybrid with fair CRGP elements, but still have basis in anaother genre)
RPG Medium 40-59% (Yes a CRPG, Perhaps a hybrid, but with basis in the CRPG genre)
RPG More 60-79% (Defently a CRPG, with considerable CRPG features)
RPG Heavy 80-89% (This CRPG ouzes of CRPG elements)
RPG Deity 90-100% (Does this game exist yet?)
Comments:
- Removed the party demands in the manipulation category.
- Added brain teaser besides locks, traps, switches and alike under manipulation.
- The difference in traps,should call for different solutions to remove them
- Changed FP feature to more camera angles. under "Gameworld"
- Added limitless gameworld feature under category "Gameworld"
- Added a few features for NPC's choices of topics depending on your characters skill, attributes, and what already has been said or done.
- Expanded with a feature with even more interactive NPC's (Over 100)
- Proffesions (classes) are supposed to be skill based choices of characters.
- The Story don't have to twist to be interesting, but player impact on story path is added as a feature.
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Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:17 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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I still don't think that requiring the human to disarm a trap etc should give extra points, but other than that, it's much better!
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Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:54 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
I still don't think that requiring the human to disarm a trap etc should give extra points, but other than that, it's much better!
Okay, Im glad you feel the list is going in the right direction.
Regarding disarm traps: When a "thief" or other trap disarming specialised characters, spots a trap (can depend on his skill) decide to disarm the trap, I think it's much more "in character", when the player himself are involved in disarming the trap, instead of just walk his thief over the trap, and whupti the trap is disarmed, or it blowed up into his face only depending on the thiefs skill. It could be a "logic puzzle"/ or a tools using "chance" disarming the trap for the player, and if the thiefs skill is much higher than the traps complexity, it would only demand a very easy player effort to disarm the trap or visa versa, if the traps complexity is way over the thiefs skill, it will result in a very tough Ex:mechanic/electric puzzle, or a much higher risk for the player using different "tools" on the trap.
The same explanantion could I imagine when a thief tries to spring locks.
The risk or chance, may be altered with "Magic" if the player don't like his odds by the thiefs skill alone. Ex: Different traps, gives/needs different puzzles/tools. But not necessarily a different thief skill, as the "disarm trap" skill can be regarded as a general skill for disarming all kind of traps.
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Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:27 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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In that case, you might aswell give points for having Gothic-like combat, IMO, or for letting the players write their own dialogue, getting help from their characters as they go.
Maybe having several disarm-trap skills, each good for different kinds of traps, using the wrong one might set it off or something. That would actually be pretty cool, I think. Same for different locks etc. It would probably be in the same mental effort class like for dialogues.
Anyway, what's next? Will this be the new rating system used by RPGDot in reviews etc? 
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Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:34 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
In that case, you might aswell give points for having Gothic-like combat, IMO
Your point here is not without relevance, but party based games could not have this feature, like we eliminated the party factor for an ekstra accet in the manipulation category, because single character games should not suffer under that feature as well, well a border line decision anyway 
or for letting the players write their own dialogue
Look at the feature under category NPC point 2.7, It's already included somehow?!
Maybe having several disarm-trap skills, each good for different kinds of traps, using the wrong one might set it off or something. That would actually be pretty cool, I think. Same for different locks etc. It would probably be in the same mental effort class like for dialogues.
Yes, agree.
Anyway, what's next? Will this be the new rating system used by RPGDot in reviews etc?
HeHe I'm not sure? Anyway it is a CRPG-factor we here determine, not exactly a game-fun score, so it should at it's most be an additional score to the normal score in a review.
But we could start eliminate some of the discussions here about CRPG or not, by running the discussed games, through the system, and let it make the final verdict if it's a real CRPG or not.
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Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:12 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Well tried out a few examples on the system, and found some unprecise questions, and some duplicates, and besides the Combat category features are too small. One feature more or less makes too much a difference.
So I tweaked the system further, so it has precise 20 features under each category:
Version 1.02
RPG enhancing elements are divided into 6 major categories:
1. Story. A well written twisting and possible changing main story is a core element in a good CRPG, and many interesting side stories is also a plus.
2. Characters. The Character(s), you are going to role-play, and your possibility, to influence their development and actions.
3. NPC’s. The AI’s you are going to role-play “against” (for). How complex and diverse are they compared to real characters.
4.Gameworld. Size, does it feel real, different environments, Nature, day cycles, season’s change, everything that makes the world more believable and real, for the best immerse experience.
5. Manipulation. Everything about items, weapons etc, interactive environment, How big is the “to do” list during the game (Freedom of choices).
6. Combat. Speaks for it self.
Under each category, I have made several “features”, which all should be answered with a Yes or a No compared to the games features, and for every Yes answer, the game gets another point towards a higher CRPG-Score.
In the end all points in each category can be counted together and divided with the number of features in each category to give the game a final CPG- Score in each category.
Suggestions for a CRPG-feature list
STORY:
1. Development of main story (Killing foes is not counting as story development)
1.1 Main story develops a few times (Over 10 times)
1.2 Main story develops very often (Over 30 times during game)
1.3 Main story changes end goal a few times (Max 5 times)
1.4 Main story changes end goal several times (over 5 times)
2. Player impact on story (Players influence on story variations)
2.1 Player can during actions change story path. (Not just develop, but takes another path)
2.2 Players action twist the story considerable (more than 5 times)
2.3 Players action twist the story a lot (More than 10 times)
3. Optional stories/quests (Numbers, Development, complexity, player impact)
3.1 Optional stories is possible.
3.2 Several optional stories (Over 5)
3.3 Many optional stories (Over 25)
3.4 Plenty of optional stories (Over 50)
3.5 Optional stories got further development
3.6 More optional stories got further development (Over 5)
3.7 Many optional stories got further development (Over 20)
3.8 Over 25 % of optional stories is more than just “kill this” or “get that” or “bring this”.
3.9 Over 50 % of optional stories are more than just “kill this” or “get that” or “bring this”.
3.10 Player have impact on optional stories (more than just doing them or not)
3.11 In over 25% of side stories player have impact on development!
4. Background material possible for extensive story readers (Ex books, events, dialogues)
4.1 A few possible times to get extra material (Over 5 times)
4.2 Many possible times to get extra material (Over 15 times)
NUMBER OF CRITERIAS: 20
CHARACTERS:
1. Character choices (Must have impact on game-play, not only visual changes)
1.1 Several races (Over 3)
1.2 Many different races (Over 6)
1.3 More than 1 profession (Different skills) (Either from beginning or during development)
1.4 Several professions (Different skills) (Over 3) (Either from beginning or during development)
1.5 Many professions (Different skills) (Over 6) (Either from beginning or during development)
2. Character development complexity (Not armour or weapon upgrade).
2.1 More than 5 different attributes to develop (skills/attributes/traits/pegs or alike)
2.2 More than 10 different attributes to develop
2.3 More than 20 different attributes to develop
2.4 There are skills available not related to combat, magic or thief skills.
2.5 Development of at least 3 different attributes happens over 10 times (3x10=30 upgrades)
2.6 Development of at least 3 different attributes happens over 20 times (3x20=60 upgrades)
2.7 Development of at least 3 different attributes happens over 30 times (3x30=90 upgrades)
(Note: adding Ex. 5 points to an attribute at one time is only 1 upgrade).
3. Impact on societies (reputation, guilds, fractions. (Not killing societies!))
3.1 Player have impact on other societies (at least 2)
3.2 Player have impact on at least 5 different societies
3.3 Player have a reputation which have impact on gameplay.
3.4 Player has a different reputation, which have impact on gameplay in different societies.
3.5 Player can be member of groups (Guilds, movements, orders or alike)
3.6 Player can change status (reputation, rang) in groups.
3.7 At least 3 different groups available
3.8 At least 5 different groups available.
NUMBER OF CRITERIAS: 20
NPC's
1. Professions
1.1 Traders or merchants available
1.2 Other NPC’s offering the player alternatives to dialogues (Healers, teachers etc.)
2. Dialogue complexity
2.1 Player have topics to conversations
2.2 Players topic choices can have permanent consequences.
2.3 NPC’s offer more topics, as specific topics are being triggered.
2.4 NPC’s offer new topics depending on player’s reputation or actions.
2.5 NPC's offer more topics/dialogue options based on the character's attributes (intelligence, charisma etc)
2.6 NPC's offer different topics/dialogue options based on the character's class
2.7 Player can try adding his/her own topics.
2.8 NPC’s have a big contribution to (main) stories
2.9 NPCs remember what you say and do/said and what you've done.
3. Societies (NPC amount and variations)
3.1 Many NPC’s belongs to different societies.
3.2 At least 3 different societies exists (At least 5 people/creatures in each society)
3.3 At least 5 different societies exists (At least 5 people/creatures in each society)
3.4 At least over 20 different interactive NPC’s
3.5 At least over 50 different interactive NPC’s
3.6 At least over 100 Different Interactive NPC’s
4. Aliveness (Not standing around doing nothing, but during their daily business)
4.1 NPC’s are accessible depending on night & day cycle
4.2 NPC’s move around on locations
4.3 Many NPC’s are doing their daily business.
NUMBER OF CRITERIAS: 20
GAMEWORLD
1. Size (No teleporting, fighting or magic must influence the travel, just walk/run)
1.1 Over 5 minutes of real-time to get from one end of gameworld to another (No teleporting, no loading times)
1.2 Over 10 minutes of real-time to get from one end of gameworld to another (No teleporting, no loading times)
1.3 Over 20 minutes of real-time to get from one end of gameworld to another (No teleporting, no loading times)
2. Area variations (An Area is a physical big location with it’s own unique living beings and nature)
2.1 More than 3 major different area in the game
2.2 At least 7 major different areas in the game
2.3 At least 10 major different areas in the game
3. Freedom (Exploring)
3.1 Gameworld offers for the most part of it freedom to visit from the beginning!
3.2 Gameworld offers more than one physical path to most locations.
3.3 Gameworld does not offer "zones", but a constant, limitless world
4. Time, elements and misc.
4.1 Night & day cycle
4.2 Night & day cycle have impact on gameplay/gameworld
4.3 Seasons /Weather changes
4.4 Seasons / Wheater have impact on gameplay/gameworld
4.5 Game offers natural disasters/happenings!
4.6 A few Sound effects make the gameworld more alive (At least 3 Different, Not monster sounds).
4.7 Many sound effects make the gameworld more alive (At least 7 Different, Not monster sounds).
4.8 Sound effects are mostly directional (surround alike)
4.9 Visual 3D world
4.10 More than one camera angle available.
4.11 Characters or NPC’s can change appearance.
NUMBER OF CRITERIAS: 20
MANIPULATION
1. Interactive elements (Barrels, doors, water etc. (Not including any collectible items of any kind)
1.1 There are at least 3 different interactive elements in the game
1.2 There are at least 6 different interactive elements in the game
1.3 There are at least 10 different interactive elements in the game
2. Item complexity (Amount, combinations, use variations)
2.1 At least 5 different types of items available (Armour is one type & weapons another type)
2.2 At least 50 different items available.
2.3 At least 500 different items available.
2.4 At least 1000 different items available.
2.6 At least 5 different custom items available.
2.7 At least 10 different custom items available.
2.8 At least 50 different custom items available.
2.9 A few items (At least 5) got more than 1 function
3. Interactive brain teasers (Traps, switches, locks, levers etc)
3.1 Traps and/or locks have more solutions (At least 2) to eliminate or bypass
3.2 At least 5 different traps/locks available
3.3 Traps/ locks needs more than character skills to eliminate
3.4 Game contains switches and levers of any kind.
3.5 Switches and levers do often offer brain gymnastic for more than just finding them!
3.6 Other brain puzzles available than Traps, switches, locks, levers and alike
4. Assignments (To do list)
4.1 Journal, or own notes should for most of the game time offer a good amount of assignments (At least 10 different)
4.2 Journal, or own notes should for most of the game time offer a good amount of assignments (At least 20 different)
NUMBER OF CRITERIAS: 20
COMBAT
1. Pace
1.1 You can break away from real-time combat (At least pause, and give new orders)
1.2 Phase based combat is available
1.3 Turn based combat available
2. Action possibilities (Magic, Weapon, items, Using environment (Hide, Cover, traps etc)
2.1 Character(s) can do melee attack / defence
2.2 Character(s) can do ranged attack/ defence
2.3 Character(s) can do Magical (unnatural) attack/ defence
2.4 Character(s) can hide or cover in shadows or behind physical objects
2.5 Character(s) can use recovering items during combat
2.6 Character(s) can use other (than recovering) items during combat
3. Enemy complexity
3.1 Over 10 different enemies
3.2 Over 30 different enemies
3.3 Over 75 different enemies
3.4 Enemies must have other options than attacking the closest character .
3.5 Many enemies shows more complex AI (Run away, Call for help, Move to optional positions etc.)
4. Combat strategies:
4.1 More than 3 different ailments available
4.2 More than 7 different ailments available
4.3 More than 15 different ailments available
4.4 More than 10 different spells/effects available (Not melee/ranged weapons)
4.5 More than 20 different spells/effects available (Not melee/ranged weapons)
4.6 The combat environment can influence the combat outcome
NUMBER OF CRITERIAS: 20
The RPG-feature score in each category will be in “%” & determined by the number of criteria’s a game can fulfil in each category compared to the actual number of criterias in each category
like:
# = Number of criterias checked in each category
Story: #/20X100 = Score%
Characters: #/20X100= Score%
NPC’s: #/20X100= Score%
Gameworld: #/20X100= Score%
Manipulation: #/20X100= Score%
Combat: #/20X100=Score%
Totally Score: (Story score%+ Characters score%+ NPC’s score%+ Gameworld score%+ Manipulation score% + Combat score%)/6 = CRPG- score%
A suggestion for a score table for both each category and total score:
RPG No 0-9.9% (Defently, no CRPG- element worth mentioning, No Hybrid toward CRPG, No CRPG)
RPG Ultra light 10-19.9% (No CRPG, But MAYBE a hybrid but with vague CRPG elements and basis in another genre)
RPG Light 20-39.9% (No CRPG, but defently a hybrid with fair CRGP elements, but still have basis in another genre)
RPG Medium 40-59.9% (Yes a CRPG, Perhaps a hybrid, but with basis in the CRPG genre)
RPG More 60-79.9% (Defently a CRPG, with considerable CRPG features)
RPG Heavy 80-89.9% (This CRPG ouzes of CRPG elements)
RPG Deity 90-100% (Does this game exist yet?)
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Member of the Sport fan club. |
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Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:06 pm |
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