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Aether
Village Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2001
Posts: 2
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Even after a couple of years, it's still hard trying to figure out what to make of the Infinity Engine. On one hand it's a marvel, because if you take into account everything that's running in the background, it's a rather impressive piece of programming. But I would not disagree with the fact that the actual gameplay the engine provides can be rather clumsy and awkward.
I for one have enjoyed all the Infinity Engine games, primarily because I have yet to see something better come along. It always feels to me like they "almost" got it, but in the end never accounted for making the gameplay itself a fun experience.
In my opinion, any true RPG has to allow time for contemplation and strategy, and while if used correctly the engine does allow this, it always leaves one with a slight feeling of frustration....
Thoughts? Opinions? Baking Tips??
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Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:49 am |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
I value this engine, and I have my griefs about it. For one, pathfinding is still akward. And I really prefer a 3D view where I can look at a situation from different angles.
My biggest complaint is that it favors the tactic of sneaking into a location, then blasting it empty with distance spells. Once you master this strategy, the games tend to be too easy...
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Fri Aug 17, 2001 11:10 am |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
The enigine has it's merits as is shown in the existing games, but it has also it's downsides. Besides the pathfinding problem, it's also not the easiest engine to build some real kewl AI in. The monsters in the engine are not very well known for their AI and once you understand how things work it becomes very easy to defeat them.
The engine is also not so flexible to bend to your needs as I understood. I think the engine is outdated and that it should be put to rest. Just dump it and give the code as it is to the world. There will be a life after death for the engine then.
If they added level editors to the games in the first place then there would be a lot of mods out there I think. Maybe the fact that they are missing says something about the engine as well.
_________________
Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
Why quote somebody else, think of something yourself. - XeroX
...you won't have to unbookmark this site, we'll unbookmark you. - Val
Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Fri Aug 17, 2001 3:55 pm |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
In my opinion only a 1st person view can generate a "true-rpg-dungeon" feeling.
I want to see through the eyes of my hero - not knowing what evil is waintin' round the corner 
a 3rd person view is more strategic - chess like.
for example: i like Wizards & Warriors more than Baldurs Gate 2.
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Fri Aug 17, 2001 10:11 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
Hi Aether,
ah, I see you've started the thread. Very good
So you asked in the comment to my rather provoking newsbit from last week what I don't like about the Infinity engine. Well, let's get to work.
I have to admit that quite some time has passed since my last meeting with Infinity. My experiences with the engine are based on BG, PS:T and Icewind Dale. I didn't finish any of these games but I've played them all for at least 20 hours or so (minimum).
Here's why I dislike Infinity:
1) Don't like the isometric perspective. I strongly prefer 1st/3rd person 3D engines. Must say though that I didn't mind the Diablo 2 engine because in Diablo 2 the view was much closer to what was happening on screen. Infinity engine is too far away from what's going on - too much zoomed out. Larian Studios' Divinity is also an isometric game but the viewing angle is sort of tilted and very close to the action. Looks good and I'm really looking forward to the game. So even though I prefer 3D engines I'm not necessarily totally turned off by iso games.
2) It was already mentioned here. One of the most obvious flaws was the pathfinding and monster AI. Pathfinding was especially bad in Icewind Dale with its narrow canyons. Don't think I need to say more on this. It's an obvious downside of the engine which was never really fixed.
3) Too much save & load. This point really annoyed me. It's OK when the game has to load a new map but it gets too much when the game has to load multiple times within the map itself. Like when you're entering buildings or walking up- or downstairs within buildings. IMHO it destroyed immersion to have a pop-up save & load screen every 2 minutes or even more often (in PS:T it was very bad). The loading times sucked too. Bad file caching. The 1st load of a map took just as long as all loads afterwards. No good.
4) Didn't like the lifeless painted backgrounds. There was nothing happening on the maps (except the tons of monsters at times). Way too little possibilities of interaction with the game world. Especially bad in Baldur's Gate with its very boring maps. Also, there was never an impression of different terrain heights. It all looked the same somehow, i.e. flat.
5) Inconsistencies of the engine. I know that PS:T was developed by a different team than the one that did Icewind Dale. Still, in PS:T it was a very nice feature that important buildings were automatically marked on the map. Icewind Dale was released later than PS:T but this feature was missing there. It's been a while since I played PS:T but I'm pretty sure there were even more helpful, good features missing from IwD that were in PS:T. Didn't appreciate that.
6) The rest.
a) There was horrible voice acting in the German version of BG. I hated it.
b) There was an annoying bug in PS:T which made you have to restart the game every 1-2 hours because the game slowed down too much (memory hole).
c) On my good old Matrox card there was a graphics glitch every time I started a new game, i.e. a black box around my mouse arrow.
I can't recall more flaws right now because of the time that's passed since my last Infinity game. All I can say is that the reasons from above sufficed to make me not like the Infinity engine. In fact, I desperately hate it 
Still, I also had my good times with some of the games. No good memories of BG at all unfortunately. But PS:T was quite nice at times. The beginning with its search & retrieve missions was tedious but then it became interesting and I have some good memories when thinking about the atmospheric catacombs. I also liked the direct influence of the stats and char upgrades. There was very little combat and lots of well worked out dialogues when you were playing an intelligent character. Thumbs up for that.
Icewind Dale had some great music tunes and it managed to create a great deal of atmosphere when the snow was silently falling to the ground. Really liked that.
But all in all captioned points 1-6 destroyed my fun times and replaced them by utter frustration.
The games could have been so much better w/o the Infinity engine IMHO.
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Fri Aug 17, 2001 11:16 pm |
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Aether
Village Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2001
Posts: 2
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Well, I "just" finished re-playing all of BG2 and then TOB, and I think I've finally given up on trying to make myself believe it was a fun experience. You know when the Infinity Engine works? When there's no combat to be had.
As long as you can sit back, listen to the wonderful, wonderful sound effects and musical score, taking your time exploring with a thief, the game can be somewhat fun.
But since 90% of the gameplay involves frenetic combat, this only leaves a possible 10% of the game to be enjoyed.
I must have tried every combination of autopause settings, trying to find the one that would lend some fluidity to the process. It's impossible. I give up, and I'm officially retiring myself from all further games using the engine.
All that amazing background art, all that incredible music (no one can argue that, I think), wasted, because at the end of the day the gameplay's the thing, and the gameplay offered by the Infinity Engine just isn't fun.
My Holy Grail? The combined gameplay of Ultima6 and Wizardry7 all wrapped up in a compelling fiction, with some decent eye-candy.
Sigh.
_________________
The more you know, the more you see... |
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Sat Aug 18, 2001 9:14 pm |
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Stiletto
God Emperor
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 312
Location: Orlando, Florida |
I too started BG and did not finish it. Too many CDs for what it is I think. I did not find the graphics incredible. They were ok but its hard to get excited in 2D anymore. The pathfinding is definately a major pain. I can't remember how many times I had to track a lost player down and get him back in with the group. You would think that keeping the group would be the #1 priority of the pathfinding. The fights were hard to manage. I gave up on strategy and just let them pound the enemy to death. The autopause system did not seem to help me out much, anything I wanted to do would unpause the game anyways.
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Stiletto
God Emperor |
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Mon Aug 20, 2001 11:51 am |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
Ah Calis, you make things so simple some times.
Indeed what needs to be said more
_________________
Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
Why quote somebody else, think of something yourself. - XeroX
...you won't have to unbookmark this site, we'll unbookmark you. - Val
Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Tue Aug 21, 2001 7:50 am |
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V'Ger
Village Dweller
Joined: 25 Dec 2001
Posts: 2
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I must say, I'm surprised that the Infinity Engine is considered to be so terrible. I've always liked it very much myself! Sure, I recognize many of the problems mentioned, but to me it's still the best engine around right now.
About 2D vs. 3D: Can anybody tell me why people like 3D so much? I've played 3D games myself (most recently Ruins of Myth Drannor) and they're UGLY! So maybe you can interact a bit more with the environment, but that environment to me looks as fake as the painted background in an old cowboy movie. The curves are all angled, the details look painted on instead of realistic, and the characters are blocky and blotchy.
Compare that to the beautiful backgrounds from BG2. Sure, they are 2D, but they LOOK 3D. The details are actually more realistic because they blend seamlessly with the rest. And while the characters may in fact be flat, they LOOK three-dimensional.
About the problems with combat in BG2; I never use autopause, I simply pause the game with SPACE, give orders, then unpause and watch the action. For new orders, I pause again. It's the most efficient way, and actually gives a turn-based feel to the game.
Finally, I can only say that I have always liked the isometric perspective. 1-st person games aren't my cup of tea; your angle of vision is always so narrow, you always get attacked by things you would have seen in real life. No, give me the good ol' Infinity Engine! |
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Tue Dec 25, 2001 11:31 pm |
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Guest
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1st or 3rd person view can't be beat for rpg's if you're controlling a single character but for a party of characters the Infinity engine does a very good job I think.
If I'm controlling 4-6 people at once I like to be able to see more than just a small portrait of them.
(WHERE IS ICEWIND DALE 2!?!?!?) |
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Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:14 am |
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Stiletto
God Emperor
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 312
Location: Orlando, Florida |
3D versus 2D is very easy to explain. Sure you might have more detail in a 2D drawing. BUT and this is a HUGE BUT... When you are into the RPG like Gothic or Ultima 9 (can't think of any 1rst person RPGs that I have played) the music is creating the mood, there is not noise and something flies straight at you! I don't know about any of you guys, but I am so into the game that I dodge in real life! You can't do that in a 2D game. Getting so into a game that you are ducking and dodging your monitor is quite an imersive experience. I wouldn't trade it for more detail in a million years. |
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Mon Dec 31, 2001 3:14 am |
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