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Sorry to stick my oar in but I just have to say that any martial artist teacher will tell you that the best way to deal with a similar skilled oponent with a sword is keep away from them. How the hell do you plan to close on their eye socket when they've got a sword pointed at you? Granted, a higher level martial artist can probably beat up a (much) lower level plate wearing, sword wielding guy, but you are not going to convince me that you would seriously expect to lay out a similar skilled oponent in plate. You underestimate full plate and you under esimate having 3' of sharp steel aimed at your cotton covered chest by a person who knows how to use such a weapon! |
Tue May 21, 2002 1:27 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Remember, Monks in D&D have always been the monks from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. They're every fantastic stereotype ever existing rolled into one class. In first edition they did ludicrous amounts of damage which is why they were taken out. In third they still do ludicrous amounts of damage but the game is built for it (to a fine point).
Monks in games like Wizardry 8 use the same principle. Obviously hand to hand in Morrowind doesn't. In Daggerfall HTH was the ONLY attack worth using really... you could punch six or seven times a second (my argonian seemed to have three or four hands on the screen at once at times with a speed 100 an HTH). I guess they toned it down for Morrowind. It's nice they put a subdual attack in for those who don't want to kill... but it would be nicer if they stayed down longer or died in one hit when knocked out (they're helpless, after all) if you keep attacking them, sure.
Maybe the mods will do it.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Tue May 21, 2002 1:37 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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And I try to stay out of the real world fighting mechanics vs fantasy fighting mechanics for the sole reason that in a fantasy game you can get hit by a multi-tonned object moving at a significant portion of the speed of sound, get knocked back across a room, get up and go back to action (dragon's tail).
Why not punch through invulnerable adamantium plate? Everyone else does. 
Also... the guy with the crossbow or gun wins. That's why they were invented.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Tue May 21, 2002 1:39 pm |
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Agreed EverythingXen, my excuse is some else started it  |
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Tue May 21, 2002 1:48 pm |
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txiabxyooj
Fox Spirit
Joined: 06 Dec 2001
Posts: 971
Location: here, there & everywhere |
i have to side with JemyM on this one. i am afraid that martial arts was orginally developed to deal with armed soliders. it was a was a way for the unarmed to combat individuals who were well armed. unfortunately in MW it is a worthless skill. i am extremely impressed with Cuular. are you a monk in real life? the amount of patience you have shown with the hand to hand must be the result of some lengthy training & meditation skills. 
_________________
"The origin of things, if things have an origin, cannot be revealed to me, if revealed at all, until I have travelled very far from it, and many revolutions of the sun must precede my first dawn. The light as it appears hides the candle." --Santayana
=member of the worshippers of the written word=
=member of the Non-flamers' guild= |
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Tue May 21, 2002 3:56 pm |
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Mephisto
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 300
Location: Holland |
First of all, I believe you have 100% chance to pickpocket someone who is uncon., so you can disarm them. Secondly unarmed was NOT invented to attack armored persons, but to defend yourself if you couldnt AFFORD or werent ALLOWED to use weapons.
Believe me, a trained samurai would lay WASTE to a traiend hth char. |
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Tue May 21, 2002 4:11 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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I think Morrowind could have avoided some problems had they not put a Monk class in themselves. It's called hand to hand, not martial arts. It could be boxing. It IS boxing. Do you see snap kicks or drop kicks, sweeps, joint locks, or throws? Anything that might give you an advantage over an armed and armored foe (however slight). We could then laught at those who thought boxing would be an effective form of combat against a monster (cool as it may be). But they put a monk in which implies hand to hand to be viable as your primary combat option.
#($& *I'LL* fight Tyson or Holyfield if you give me full plate and a broadsword and shield. Boxers only cover their heads. Not much training against a side slash with a broadsword there.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Tue May 21, 2002 4:38 pm |
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txiabxyooj
Fox Spirit
Joined: 06 Dec 2001
Posts: 971
Location: here, there & everywhere |
thanks for agreeing with me Mephisto. you have done a lovely job of clarifying my earlier post--sorry for causing any confusion. i didn't mean to suggest that hand to hand was designed to storm castles and such. however i was trying to point out that hand to hand was designed for self defence when other means (i.e. weapons) were removed from the common man. also, i think EverythingXen makes an excellent point when he/she mentions that the real problem is that monk was suggested as a viable character class. when i think of a monk my mind instantly floats to a shao lin temple style of combat. not the "boxing" (as EverythingXen calls it) that is present in MW. i think the bottum line is that much is left to be desired MW's hand to hand skill.
_________________
"The origin of things, if things have an origin, cannot be revealed to me, if revealed at all, until I have travelled very far from it, and many revolutions of the sun must precede my first dawn. The light as it appears hides the candle." --Santayana
=member of the worshippers of the written word=
=member of the Non-flamers' guild= |
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Tue May 21, 2002 5:15 pm |
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Mephisto
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 300
Location: Holland |
quote:
I didn't mean to suggest that hand to hand was designed to storm castles and such.
HEY! Now I think of it, that would be a pretty cool sight. A Huge castle defended my hundreds of archers being stormed by hundreds of people all unarmed and dressed in plain clothes. They would all start basing their feet, hands and heads (hehe) against the walls, knocking the castle completely down. Now that is COOL. |
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Tue May 21, 2002 5:35 pm |
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Cuular
Guest
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JennyM Posted:
quote:
Cuular
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I have defeated opponents like Deadra Lords and Golden Saints with H2H, but to compare that to taken them out with a trained weapon, H2H is not an option. However, sometimes I have actually suceeded better with H2H against really tough opponents since H2H is alot faster than a weapon (makes it easier to get-in hit get-out get-in hit etc), but this happens rarely, and is probably just becouse I am 70 in blunt weapons while I am 100 in H2H (easier to hit... Or rather ALWAYS hit).
Ok sorry if I sounded like I was not agreeing with you. To make things straight forward:
1. Hand To Hand needs some major work. I totally agree that an unarmored Hand To Hand person should be able to out maneuver people with full plate armor on.
2. I play the monk because it is a challenge. I have no "competition" to level my guys fast. So it doesn't bother me that my Hand to Hand monk levels slower than my orc warrior, or my High elf mage.
txiabxyooj Posted:
quote:
Tue May 21, 2002 8:56 am Post subject:
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i am extremely impressed with Cuular. are you a monk in real life? the amount of patience you have shown with the hand to hand must be the result of some lengthy training & meditation skills.
Nope no monk, but an extremely stubborn underdog player in Video games. Just for the record I played a rogue from day 1 in EverQuest. You want to talk about patience... |
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Tue May 21, 2002 7:21 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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I might try my naked argonian concept again someday ... but I don't have 20 minutes to waste on a battle. WHAM-WHAM it's over good... back to the story and exploring suits me fine.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Tue May 21, 2002 7:34 pm |
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What happens when you try to enchant gloves? |
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Tue May 21, 2002 11:47 pm |
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OT, but martial arts was exceptionally well done in Oni, an action game, but with a strong story. And realistic sword-and-shield combat was done in Blade of Darkness. I wish someone would combine the best of these two games into an RPG... |
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Wed May 22, 2002 12:44 am |
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Brenner
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 18 May 2002
Posts: 102
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quote:
OT, but martial arts was exceptionally well done in Oni, an action game, but with a strong story. And realistic sword-and-shield combat was done in Blade of Darkness. I wish someone would combine the best of these two games into an RPG...
You hit on something i have been thinking about for ages. my vision for an rpg includes a few of the following:
gameworld and open play: morrowind
combat system: difficult to implement with stats but blade of darkness with more attention to stats would be nice, although hard to implement well - maybe add parry, dodge, counter along side block and have combos appear as your skill with that weapon increases (instead of just char level like bod)
npc interaction with gameworld: gothic. i didn't get to play the first two elder scrolls, but i was enamoured with the attention to detail of the npcs in gothic. they ate, interacted with each other and reacted to you based on your position. they had routines they followed and were protective of their homes,and they showed some mercy if you pushed them to far in so much as they ddidn't slaughter you outright.
the spells are great in morrowind, as are the ability to create your own and enchant your own weapons. i also like how some characters will react to you based on your skillset or clothing. ashanni for instance wouldn't give me the time of day until i made a character with high personality and sneak. she 'liked the way i moved' - while i am rambling, i might as well add that those who think this game isn't for adults aren't looking in the right places - there is drug addiction, politics, sexual undertones (give yourself to ashanni and then complete the first quest, and read between the lines next time you talk to her), violence, etc... it is like the old bugs bunny cartoons - before they wre edited to peices by networks like teletoon. there is alot of content suitable for children - and enough tere to keep adults entertained. they see things on a totally different level. maybe i should have started a new thread here. oh well. enough rambling. 19 hours into the day and i need sleep. |
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Wed May 22, 2002 4:02 am |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
Situation: Monk Vs. Warrior Vs. Mage
Monk Punches Warrior
Mage levitates
Warrior impales Monk
Mage drops fire on Warrior.
I think we can all see the outcome here?
Oh, and Lord EX, I only realised that last part of what you just said as I was explaining some of the aspects to my English and Computer teachers today. It hit me... there is Moon Sugar, Skooma, Ebony Trade (Illegal), the House of Earthly Delights, Anasshi, the kissing stranger (only for females), the woman who will send you to get her ring back (only to jump you a moment later), guards and fines, dead taxmen, the need to park guars outside of a city, slaves, Abolitionists, shipwrecks, diseased people, poorer areas, three naked barbarians, a man who had his pants stolen, eccentric people, liars, the drunk talking mudcrab, bribes, writs, money raising for the temple, vampires, and much, much more.
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Make good choices. |
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Wed May 22, 2002 5:08 am |
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