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Bopoxdren
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 41
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| Have I grown too old for RPGing? |
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"Action RPG" "Hack and Slash". It seems almost every new and up comming so called RPG is described - and proudly so - as an "Action RPG" or "an Action Adventure Game with RPG elements" (God, I hate that one!) This evolution of the CRPG as we're witnessing it - towards fast paced mindless action, twitch based combat and dumbed down dialogues is not a pleasant thing for many of us to witness.
Spend some time on the various RPG forums perusing the non-spoiler related topics and you'll easily detect a tidal wave of disgust and resentment about this new trend from the old school RPGers and the intellectual gamers and the regular old farts (like myself) who prefer a more... substancial gaming experience. Hear the cries from the heart for a more mature and compelling RPG; Hear how the vitriol and utter contempt for the gaming industry by said gamers rings loud and clear throughout the ether... voiced in logical and well thought out rants - as compared to the imbicilic bilge spewed out by the average official Oblivion forum poster.
... and yet, nobody listens. The developers keep making action RPGs with their vaunted "RPG elements" and they keep kicking out vapid MMORPGs for Scooter and Pheebe... and we all sit back and wonder "What happened???"
Of course we all know it's about money. One visit to the juvenile, sophmoric official Oblivion forum and one really can not blame a large development company like Bethesda for catering to them. Because even though the old schoolers and the intellectual gamers and the mature gamers scream and shout loudly for a return to a deeper and more meanigful RPG, we are simply outnumbered by the new generation consol gamers... by a wide margin.
So I ask: Am I too old for gaming? Am I a gaming dinosaur who's wants and needs are no longer relevant to a developer's bottom-line approach to creative game making? Am I to start looking for a new hobby?
Well, it's not looking very good right now, true, but lets not forget about Gothic 3 comming soon... a true glimps of sunlight through the menacing stormclouds of RPG's downward spiral. Also NWN 2 looks to be promising as does Bioware's Dragon Age.
Here is a crazy thought: What if there was a community made RPG? What if all of us gamers who yern for an old fashioned crpg could submit our own quests and content to... say a central data bank. ( I already have my Fallout 3 based quest design just waiting to be used) A certain few artists and programmers at the core of the program could work at a central location and harvest all the content from us gamers. Fairly simple 2d sprite graphics like Fallout 2 only at a little higher res would be fine enough... but all of our creative content and designs would be harnessed into a CRPG that would rule forever.
That would be cool... |
Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:52 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
I'm not that old and yet I would definitely like to see some RPG of the BG2 type. I really like Oblivion and even some action games (such as Dungeon Siege 1 and 2). It doesn't mean however that I don't understand the difference. I would really enjoy some typical, old-school RPG.
I think that games currently go through same things many other things (movies are great example) went before. I mean, the costs of making technologically up-to-date title increases very quickly. This means you have to make more money out of the title to pay for your expenses. And that means you have to make it for large enough group of players.
In past two dedicated people were enough to develop game. Now you need hundreds of developers, artists, QAers, management, marketing... Now, the question is - do we really need technologically up-to-date games? My thinking is that yes, indeed. There is very little group of players that would accept very outdated look. We don't insist on game being the very best, but we need at least average graphics and so on and that already costs too much. |
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Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:15 am |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
Bopoxdren - you are right
Mindless mainstream action (so called) rpgs are not my favorite kind of games.
My personal taste (dream game):
Turned based combat: Wizardry 7, 8 or Fallout / Jagged Alliance Style, Avernum
Big fun dialogues: Planescape Torment, Fallout
Huge difficult dungeons: Daggerfall, Wizardry, Might & Magic , Ultima Underworld
Cool Story: Albion, Gothic, Geneforge, System Shock, Baldurs Gate 2
Living World: Ultima, Gothic
Challenging unforgiving gameplay: Evil Islands, Wizardry, Jagged Alliance, old Bards Tale
maybe I am getting too old for this ... I am playing rpgs for over 20 years now, and there are getting easier and easier, many are no challenge anymore leaving me unsatisfied after finishing them.
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
Last edited by HiddenX on Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:07 pm |
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MasterLich
Village Dweller
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Planet Zantak |
| We are not too old for RPGing. |
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Referring to my subject line: it's just that there are not many real computer RPG's any more. I agree with my brother 'dinosaur'  Bopoxdren who started this thread that there is not enough substance. I bought Oblivion as well, haven't finished it yet, but the trend was clear: in one particular quest, you are supposed to get a book to help you solve an elven language puzzle in the game. OK, fine, so far. But no, because you are an imbecile and cannot read anything else than your questbook, you have to go and give this book to another NPC and he will interpret the puzzle-related things in the book for you so that you don't have to think yourself. OK, might work without giving the book, but still... the questbook does not leave any questions to ponder.
The compass is there so that you wouldn't have any trouble finding a book in the library or wouldn't get lost in the forest and bump accidentally into something new and unexpected.
The enemies are scaled to your level, so that you wouldn't start crying because you can't get past a mammoth dragon at level 1 and therefore not see what's behind it.
Myself, I started CRPG's with Bard's Tale I on C64 and have been playing new RPG titles as well as other genre games ever since. I've played games like Fallout 1 & 2, Ultima games from VII till the end of series incl. Underworld II, BG2 (not 1, unfortunately), Wizardry 8, NWN, Elder Scrolls series and Gothic I & II. Also late games on C64 with an emulator, like Centauri Alliance, Wasteland and some SSI AD&D games. Found System Shock 2 finally now and will probably start it when I finish Oblivion for the first time. Bad graphics have never been a problem for me, but I must say that when I bought Icewind Dale II 2-3 years after it was published, it was a bit of a shock...
What I want to say is that all those old games had something very good in common: when you achieved something - you solved a puzzle, you got a level up, you mapped an area with pen and paper on the side - you felt like you had achieved something! It was not a walk- (or worse, run-) through like with some of our newest titles.
But, as an answer to the thread starters' post: there are already community-made RPG's, although they tend to be mods for existing games. Neverwinter Nights is a great example of some fabulous free RPG gamer community-made modules. At Neverwinter Vault the modules that are ranked on top of the list are actually the ones that take the RPG element of the game the furthest. The old engine (2002) has it's limitations, but it is surprising how much you can still get out of it. Better yet, as mentioned, NWN 2 should be published in the summer/autumn 2006, with a huge community already wishing to get their hands on the (hopefully as easy to use as the previous) construction set.
Also, old Ultima games are real favorites for re-creation on newer engines like TES-CS 3, Dungeon Siege and Aurora (NWN). For TES-CS 3, there is a game called Ashes of Apocalypse being developed, but I am afraid it will be crushed under the future Oblivion projects.
So, I don't believe it's just the old guys developing these old-style RPG mods, there must be some creative youngsters involved as well. Which means there is still hope.
If you read this rant all the way, you - know a bit more about me = newbie - and deserve thanks for attention.
Cheers,
ML |
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Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:50 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Yes, I do miss mapping out areas on graph paper while I play. Part of me wants to ignore the in-game map and go pure cartographer, but it's hard to do when it's right there for you to use. It's like stopping to do math on paper when you have a calculator within grasp. Different when it's necessary, now that it isnt, my graph pad and pencil lies unused for years. I plan on running thru Fallout 1 & 2 within the next year, games that I enjoyed mapping very much, so it may get some usage yet.
But back to the topic, yes I do agree that there is a dearth of actual RPGs, but I also believe that we make our own experiences as well. Literally, as with modding tools and scenario editors and what not, but also in our minds as well as we play.
Just as that green blotch in the distant past represented a "dragon" on our screens and in our minds, so too must a well-defined yet strangely lifeless character be a "person" or a true character in our minds. Yes, it's asking ourselves to pretend, and one at times can feel as if they are a small child again in doing so, but isnt this sort of what this whole thing is about anyway?
I've even done it in RTS games, imagining the role and dialogue of the general as he is asked to go to war against insurmountable odds, or his force is cut down before his eyes, yet he must battle on. His last words as his blood seeps into the earth before him, the battle-cry of vengeance from his remaining battle-weary bretheren against the suprised foe. In a way I guess Im still that kid playing with GI Joes in my head.
As much as I'd like to let myself freewheel thru an RPG game and let the software "do everything for me" in a way, I still do what I can to actually roleplay in my mind. I try and treat characters as real in my mind, I impart great pride and urgency upon my sacred "quest" or mission, whatever they may be. Whether it's actually laying my character on a bed to rest, or simply wearing regular clothes when in town training and what have you, a good part of the actual "role" is in my mind, as it always has been.
The green blotch for the dragon is still there, and will always be for those of us who will always desire a deeper experience. In the end it is what we make of it, even moreso in desperate times such as these....
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:16 pm |
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MasterLich
Village Dweller
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Planet Zantak |
quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
I've even done it in RTS games, imagining the role and dialogue of the general as he is asked to go to war against insurmountable odds, or his force is cut down before his eyes, yet he must battle on. His last words as his blood seeps into the earth before him, the battle-cry of vengeance from his remaining battle-weary bretheren against the suprised foe. In a way I guess Im still that kid playing with GI Joes in my head.
Now that you mention war games, I have actually always found great immersiveness in submarine simulations - it's so... claustrophobic in a way. Having started with Silent Service 20 years ago, I can 'see' myself the moment when I stop breathing and wait for the deep charges to explode - all this in front of a computer screen . Also, the time period in which you have to launch your torpedoes is ridiculously short compared to the other more or less boring routine preparations and sailing before the moment, after which we reach this 'achieving something' feeling again. |
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Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:52 pm |
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Bopoxdren
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 41
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You know, reading through you guy's great replies, my head is swimming with visions of quests gone by. Moments of great satifaction and wonderment from my own RPGing history fade in... and fade out again as I remember other ones.
Then I try to compare these memories with more recent ones I've had of the few hack & slash action oriented games I've played and I try to identify exactly what it is that's missing in them.
Pondering this here and now, I think what's missing most is ATMOSPHERE. By far - to me anyway - Fallout 2 is the ultimate model of this... I mean this game was literaly dripping with atmosphere. That fifties era post punk motief with the cartoon pip boy mascott just seemed so... right and fitting for that game. The kind of nastalgia I feel remembering those nights playing Fallout 2 is on an equal pare with the feelings I get when I think back to those childhood halloween nights dressed up as a mummy and roaming around my Long island neighborhood trying to avoid the headless horseman. Planescape Torment is another one with an incredibly original and totally otherworld feel to it. Gothic 1 & 2 took a new path with a 3D RPG and delivered an original and unforgetable world... one that I just couldn't wait to get back into after a long days work.
Where is the flare? Where is the zeal? Where is the originality in these new games? Do you remember combat in Fallout 2? Do you remember the sheer joy of watching the death animation of a huge green mutant getting his whole torso ripped apart with a critical hit from a burst of your SMG... squishy sound and all ??? I can still picture the bloody ribs sticking out from the pile of his stinking corps. Bethesda can give me all the best realtime combat that the latest technology in AI and graphics can offer - on the best, most beastly computer of this era and It does not even come close to comparing with that old Fallout coolness...
Oh, what the hell... I may be an old fart gamer, but I've decided not to give up hope. Like Masterlich said, "there must be some creative youngsters out there getting involved". Maybe they'll be farther and fewer in between, but I'm sure there's still got to be some masterpieces coming down the road... lets just hope they arrive before I'm committed to the old folks home... |
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Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:31 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
If you don't feel challenged by 'modern' games, try playing a real (=pen&paper) RPG for a change. If 'modern' games don't get you as satisfied as playing the 'old' games did, try GMing a real RPG - there's hardly anything more entertaining than watching a group of players wriggle through your challenges.
I have no qualms with 'modern' CRPGs because I always enjoyed games just for their atmosphere and/or game world and not for their mechanics, letting my imagination do the rest, and I have to admit I really, really didn't enjoy busters like Dungeon Master and their ilk back then: too much stats crunching for my taste, and a thoroughly unenchanting backdrop.
But as strange as it sounds, even though I'm perfectly happy with current CRPGs as they happen to cater to what i want, anyway, I feel something comparable to your dislike when it comes to 'modern' 3D shooters. Back in the old days, you would find me playing them all and marvel at the tiniest pixel or gameplay or story difference which set a certain game apart from the rest (and, frankly, each one had its merits for me, even real stinkers - in which case I marveled at the level of poo in their designers' heads).
Nowadays, I have a really hard time finishing a shooter at all unless it's a) really short (a quite common occurrence nowadays) or b) a sequel to one of my favorite titles of back then. But even if I happened to actually like it, it doesn't occupy my mind anymore like it did back then. After fifteen years of playing shooters, I must have finally reached a level of having-seen-it-all-before, and the more realistic the graphics of a new game, the less fascination it holds for me. I even started to skip new ones - unthinkable just a few years back - to replay Catacomb 3D.
Now I can't say - not by any standards - that Catacomb 3D was any better than, say, Quake 4, in any regard. Yet replaying it it still made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside while playing Q4 didn't.
These shooter games just don't satisfy me any more. It's quite possible that I play them for an hour and then stop, never to return to them.
While - to be realistic about it - the level of depth of shooters can't have changed much over the years, I'm pretty sure that I have changed.
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Jaz |
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Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:16 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
quote:
Originally posted by Jaz
Nowadays, I have a really hard time finishing a shooter at all unless it's a) really short (a quite common occurrence nowadays) or b) a sequel to one of my favorite titles of back then.
Same here. Recently I've bought Half Life 2. I really loved the original Half Life so much. I bought a new computer two (or so) months ago (mainly for Oblivion) and so I bought this famous shooter, sequel of a famous shooter. And I can't get into it. I tried several times. I see and feel that it is very nice, immersive, simply one of the best shooters ever. I'm bored by it anyway.
Generally I'm more and more often bored by games. Games are quite expensive over here, so I tend to read many reviews before I by a game. Although I try to choose my games carefully, I end up feeling bored by the game in a kind of "you paid for it, you should play it at least one time through" mood. |
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Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:57 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
Gee, you youngsters whine a lot!!  Back in my day, we played cowboys and Indians outside with toy guns and bows and arrows!!  Lazarus is very old skool, and if we can ever twist Cleve's neck enough to get him to release Grimoire, you'll have all the joy of the old Wizardry games. I still replay all the oldies regularly and while I'm enjoying Oblivion, nothing will ever match PS-T for me!!
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If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:11 am |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
omg Corwin!!! 
People just get burned out, even if it is a slow burn. I used to be obsessive about finishing all games I played, period. Now, I end up making a "to be continued" disk of save games and settings, if ever the day i should pick it back up.. and people also grow up.
The title of the thread asks "have I grown too old..", yet nobody seems to seriously tackle that question. It's assumed that no, it's the game's fault. I cant be growing out of this hobby, Ive been doing it forever.
If youre too bored by games, maybe it's time to face the possibility that perhaps yes, you have outgrown them. Nobody wants to think that way, we all want the show to go on, we all would like to think that magical game will show up that rekindles the passion we felt long ago for our hobby. Unfortunately, we arent getting any younger, and weve lost our sense of wonder that was part of the magic. The wonder of past years, just simply being able to play a game on a computer or television being a big thing is long gone, replaced by a sort of apathy as it all starts to look the same. Perhaps the blame does not rest on the shoulders of game devs, but Mother Nature. Youre far older than when you started.
We really are the first trial-run "gamer generation", there is no meter on this hobby that tells you when to quit, you need to make that call yourself.
If you can find no joy in this anymore, perhaps yes, youve outgrown games. Just know when to get out and do something else or re-arrange your priorities so you dont end up dour and angry, doing nothing but complaining as Ive seen on some other RPG forums.
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:47 am |
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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
Or maybe its like eating too much pastry. Even how good some cake might be, you can't put yourself eating it, because you are so sick of cakes altogether. So only options are either changing the meny (genre) or stop eating cakes (playing games) for a while. If you are a gamer in your heart. you won't lose your appetite for good games. You are just momentarily satisfied. Ok enough food metaphors, now i'm hungry
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
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Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:30 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
The title of the thread asks "have I grown too old..", yet nobody seems to seriously tackle that question. It's assumed that no, it's the game's fault. I cant be growing out of this hobby, Ive been doing it forever.
What! I said that perhaps I changed, didn't I? I know I changed. It may not concern the CRPG genre, but well, guess what, I aged fifteen years regarding shooters .
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Jaz |
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Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:14 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
I guess, to me it sounded more like a "been-there-done-that" apathy you were describing Jaz, a change of heart due to a sort of FPS burnout, not the biological clock within telling you it's time to leave behind the childish "video games" for more traditionally adult fare.
I know, I hate the "video games" moniker myself. It's often delivered as almost a slur with a derisory tone by those less than friendly to the hobby, but I used that specifically because of that very fact, for emphasis. Sub-consciously, our minds may be now speaking in that derisory and patronizing tone, telling us that it's time to "grow up" already and leave the video games behind.
I dont know about all of you, but all I can say is that I'd rather go insane with inner struggle first - i may get older, but i refuse to grow old!
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:22 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
I doubt it's burnout, and it's not as if I stopped playing video games altogether... I just came to prefer other genres to those I loved 15 years ago, perhaps because circumstances changed and I *did* acquire other responsibilities over the course of time, who knows.
It's just that regarding my once-favorite genre, I still view the older games through the romantic veils of nostalgia while judging new games by totally different standards. It's not fair towards the new games, I admit as much, but I can't help it, and perhaps Bopoxdren has similar feelings when it comes to CRPGs.
While Oblivion fascinates me just as much and occupies my thoughts just like Throne of Chaos did all those years ago, I couldn't help but feel cheated after playing Doom 3 when compared to Doom, or HL 2 after HL (Q4 didn't disappoint me quite as much, and I found RtCW to be just as captivating as W3D back then). But the trend is obvious - for me newer shooters just lack the magic of their ancestors, and because I'm pretty sure that THIS genre didn't change all that much, it's obvious that I must have changed for whatever reason.
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Jaz |
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Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:33 pm |
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