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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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It looks like Hamas is going to have the majority of the seats in the Palestinian parliament. This certainly changes things. I am not at all suprised at this result. What is more suprising to me is that other people describe the Hamas political victory as stunning. Respect seldom comes without the threat of violence. Hamas has been doing all the violent fighting for the Palestinian cause. People often feel safer with leaders that are willing to fight for them, even if fighting is the wrong option and actually counterproductive to their own good.
Now that the government of Palestine contains people that we know are will fight. We get to see the answers to many pertinent questions that must be answered.
1. Is Hamas really dedicated to the destruction of Israel, or will they instead act to preserve their own political powers like everyone else does.
2. Does Israel really want true peace or do they want only to dominate the Palestinians. Said another way, are they willing to give anything back in order to get peace or will they only accept peace on their terms. Said yet another way, they want the Palestinians to accept peace other Israeli terms, but they are not willing to compromise.
3. Does the west really want an Islamic two-party democraticly elected government, or was that simply pimp-game.
Personally, I think the answers are...1) They will try to preserve their own power 2) They want to dominate 3) That is pimp-game. My premise is simple everyone is out for themselves, with extremely few exceptions. But we will soon see because the hand is being forced.
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Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:54 pm |
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cptmaxon
High Emperor
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 557
Location: Israel |
1. one of the core codes of the hamas is the destruction of israel, I doubt they'll change just because they've gotten political power, I think it's going to be terror sancitioned by the palastain goverment as it was in Araft time.
2. several points which you fail to mention in your post, in 99 a prime minister was elected from the labor party, peace with the palastiens was one of his main issues, well it comes down to this, he practically was willing to give everything besides letting refugess settle in israel proper, and I do mean everything all the way to the 67th line with half of jerusalem under thier jurstiction instead of agreeing Araft lunched a massive terror campagin. which led most Israelis to think and not unjustly that the other side doesn't want peace, a view most carry still today, no we don't want those territories in fact the present prime minister is calling to withdraw from them.
but the fact remains that if they won't talk to us and agree on borders in a joint confrence, we'll set our own without consulting them.
I sincerly hope that they will sit down and talk, I sincerly hope that some sort of comproise will be staked, but I sadly doubt it . when you are dealing with fundmeantlist they won't accept anything less then what they want, and so no peace once more.
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"We're still flying"
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Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:22 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
| Re: Hamas' political victory |
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quote:
Originally posted by Darrius Cole
Personally, I think the answers are...1) They will try to preserve their own power 2) They want to dominate 3) That is pimp-game.
Yes, I agree.
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:16 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
I also think so.
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Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:33 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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All news sources are reporting that Israel will not negotiate with Palestine. That creates something of a pickle.
I don't think that they will stick to that. The fact is Hamas is part of the government. The situation dictates that they talk to the Palestinian government, or they guarantee war.
I don't doubt that they are will to go to war, but I doubt that they are willing to do it without at least trying to negotiate a least once.
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Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:28 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
I would expect a lot of international backlash if the Israelis refused to talk. About the only way that doesn't happen is if the Palestinians immediately fall into terrorism.
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Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:52 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Strange, I wouldn't expect Palestinians to make such choice. I understand (yeah, I know I probably cannot fully understand) they are somehow frustrated... |
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Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:53 am |
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cfmdobbie
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 1859
Location: London, England |
Don't forget that Hamas is already considered a terrorist organisation by much of the world, Israel has always been subject to terrorist attacks by Palestinians, and most of the civilised world has a policy of not negotiating with terrorists. It's nothing to do with Israel not being willing to "give peace a chance", it's that if Hamas intends to make good on their promises, then there is no chance for peace, and diplomacy will not change that.
Israel will not and can not allow Hamas to continue as it currently stands; this isn't just a border dispute - Hamas wants the complete destruction of the Israeli state. Israel are literally playing for keeps - either they win, or they will be wiped off the planet.
Israel is quite capable of dealing with Palestine - in each of the categories of military technology, elite forces and intelligence services, I would put Israel in the top three worldwide; It's only diplomatic pressure that has prevented a full-scale invasion and occupation up until now. However, if a number of countries which subscribe to the Arab ideology join forces against Israel, they are in trouble. And as losing is not an option, if backed into a corner Israel may use one of the nukes it doesn't confirm or deny possession of.
This is a very serious situation - and one which the West needs to be involved in. Britain and America in particular and the UN in general have always been deeply involved in Israel - what's going on today is a direct result of our actions in the past, and as such it would be morally wrong to turn our backs on it now.
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Charlie Dobbie
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Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:52 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
It's kind of hard to negotiate with someone that believes it's their right to blow you up.
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Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:09 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
It's kind of hard to negotiate with someone that believes it's their right to blow you up.
And it's kind of hard to have fair negotiation between two parties where one vastly overpowers the other AND gets far more support globally, and has been taking whatever they want since the beginning.
It's also facinating to see people expecting palestinias to be robots, simply accepting that thanks to israel, they have virtually diminished access to fresh water, they loose land all the time, and that they are more or less second class citizens to israelis.
Or, maybe you're right. Maybe those small-minded indians should have kept their yaps shut, and let the new-world settlers take what they wanted and drive them into their reservations imediately. I mean no one would have been hurt then, would they? Instead, those awful creatures fought back?! How DARE they?
quote:
Israel will not and can not allow Hamas to continue as it currently stands; this isn't just a border dispute - Hamas wants the complete destruction of the Israeli state. Israel are literally playing for keeps - either they win, or they will be wiped off the planet.
Can Hamas let the Israeli state continue? Taking land and keeping palestinians from the water resources? Destroying palestinian homes when they're not quick enough to move out of the way of illegal Israeli settlers?
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Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:09 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Hexy's points are all valid. You've got such a long-running violent conflict that both sides have incurred a long list of atrocities. Ah, the joys of organized religion...
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:41 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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Something I've wanted to know. I have talked to Palestinians about the conflict. They always say that they were living there when the Israelis moved there. Then in 1948 the Israelis drove them out. They say that since they were there first that the land is rightfully theirs and they want their land back. Moreover I've been told that they can't stay out of the country for a year or they are not allowed to come back in.
What is the Israeli side of the story. What is their justification as to why they should rightfully have possession of the land?
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Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:39 am |
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cptmaxon
High Emperor
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 557
Location: Israel |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
quote:
It's kind of hard to negotiate with someone that believes it's their right to blow you up.
And it's kind of hard to have fair negotiation between two parties where one vastly overpowers the other AND gets far more support globally, and has been taking whatever they want since the beginning.
It's also facinating to see people expecting palestinias to be robots, simply accepting that thanks to israel, they have virtually diminished access to fresh water, they loose land all the time, and that they are more or less second class citizens to israelis.
I agree with your first point, it is hard ot negotiate between to powers when they are unbalanced so, however if you do agree on something and sign on then you should keep it, and they are not keeping their end...
as for the second assumption where's your facts?, fact we gave them control over an equifer (that's an underground water source), but what else would you have us do? we supply them with water , where else would you want the water to come from?, there's only one sweet water place in israel and that's the Galilee Sea, I call it sea because that's how it's called but it's no more then a small lake by american standrads, the rest comes from wells, so where would dimished access manifest itself?, what land do they lose all the time if I remeber correctly we just evaucated our settlements from gaza and now doing the same at hebron, so wouldn't it be fair to say they gain land?.
about the second class citizens it depends in the last few years much was adressed but there's still the seed of hate and mistrust , and I would be lying if I said all israelis think of israeli arabs as equals on that I can only speak for myself and say that I don't think of them as such.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Or, maybe you're right. Maybe those small-minded indians should have kept their yaps shut, and let the new-world settlers take what they wanted and drive them into their reservations imediately. I mean no one would have been hurt then, would they? Instead, those awful creatures fought back?! How DARE they?
not a fair analogy, when the settlers got to america some indians were ready to trade with them and live peacefully with them(what's the point of thanksgiving?) the same doesn't not apply here , since the moment when israeli settlers came to israel and dried up the swamps there were arabs who did all they could to raid the settlements, in which by the way we bought the land and did not take it from them, also israel did agree with the UN decsion about hte proposed borders about 25% less then what it is now without the occupied terrtories, but arabs rejected it and attacked.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Can Hamas let the Israeli state continue? Taking land and keeping palestinians from the water resources? Destroying palestinian homes when they're not quick enough to move out of the way of illegal Israeli settlers?
we only destroyed homes of terrorists, I don't know where you get your "facts", but at least get them straight, I am not saying if it's right or wrong, just correcting you. but of course hammas(and every other terriost organstion) takes the easy way, I mean really why go after military targets when civilan targets are much more juicy, I mean more ppl, less protection, create more terror then if a military target was hit, ohh well they're israelis they brought it on themselves by being born into this dispute...
every time a nation is has a terroist attack it's obvoiusly that percpective nation's fault (sarcasm) I mean please they brought it on themselves, just like america did at 9.11 , and britan did when they bombed it's subway, and spain and every other country that had a terroist attack, it's obvious to me the blame wasn't on some cowardly terriosts who wanted some political power for themselves and make the loudest noise so ppl would take them seriously.
_________________
"We're still flying"
"it's not much"
"It's enough" |
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Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:31 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
as for the second assumption where's your facts?, fact we gave them control over an equifer (that's an underground water source), but what else would you have us do? we supply them with water , where else would you want the water to come from?, there's only one sweet water place in israel and that's the Galilee Sea, I call it sea because that's how it's called but it's no more then a small lake by american standrads, the rest comes from wells, so where would dimished access manifest itself?, what land do they lose all the time if I remeber correctly we just evaucated our settlements from gaza and now doing the same at hebron, so wouldn't it be fair to say they gain land?.
WHERE are your OWN sources?
Israel took the Jordan and several other important rivers, and gave the palestinians an aquifier system they are about to take control of with the humongous Cage (Wall) they are imprisoning the palestinians in, aren't they? Furthermore, Israel has of course destroyed many palestinian wells, so they could direct the water to themselves etc.
http://www.merip.org/mero/mero092902.html
quote:
not a fair analogy, when the settlers got to america some indians were ready to trade with them and live peacefully with them(what's the point of thanksgiving?) the same doesn't not apply here , since the moment when israeli settlers came to israel and dried up the swamps there were arabs who did all they could to raid the settlements, in which by the way we bought the land and did not take it from them, also israel did agree with the UN decsion about hte proposed borders about 25% less then what it is now without the occupied terrtories, but arabs rejected it and attacked.
Somehow, I DOUBT very much that the indians who did trade with the settlers were the same tribes that the settlers took food and land from. Furthermore, what trading are you referring to? The trading of vast tracts of lands for some whiskey and weapons? You know, the Manhattan deal?
Perhaps another good analogy would be the Apartheit in Africa?
quote:
we only destroyed homes of terrorists, I don't know where you get your "facts", but at least get them straight, I am not saying if it's right or wrong, just correcting you. but of course hammas(and every other terriost organstion) takes the easy way, I mean really why go after military targets when civilan targets are much more juicy, I mean more ppl, less protection, create more terror then if a military target was hit, ohh well they're israelis they brought it on themselves by being born into this dispute...
Chabra. Shatila. Yemen. The Wall. Need I say more?
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:33 am |
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cfmdobbie
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 1859
Location: London, England |
quote:
Originally posted by Darrius Cole
What is the Israeli side of the story. What is their justification as to why they should rightfully have possession of the land?
The CIA World Factbook has a summary of events post-WWII that might explain the Israeli side of things.
A quick summary might be something like the following:
After WWI removed the area from Ottoman control, Britain ran it as a joint Arab-Israeli state. Stretched after WWII, Britain abandoned its regulation of the area and turned it over to the United Nations, who decreed that because of the ethnic mix the joint state was unworkable, and decided on the partitioning we see today. This partitioning was never accepted by the Arab world, which engaged in various attempted invasions, all of which were resisted (some spectacularly). Money and technology has flowed into Israel to bolster its defences, and aid into Palestine to provide for a meagre existence - a disparity that can be at least partly explained by the events of WWII.
But if you want to go back much further than 1948, the Wikipedia has always been good for history:
Israel
History_of_Israel
History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah
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Charlie Dobbie
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Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:21 pm |
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