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shaman's tear
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 14 Jul 2002
Posts: 29
Location: Florida,USA |
| Do RP games require too much time to play? |
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This month's PC Gamer mag has an interesting RPG column discussing the huge amount of time required to finish most of today's rp games vs. actually having that much free time to devote...especially difficult when your a rp junkie(as I) and would like to play through as many of the new games being released as possible.Throw a mmorpg game into the mix and it becomes even worse to find the extra time to spend on the sp games.The column asks the question is it really necessary for a good rpg to require 80-100 hours to complete instead of 30-40 hours and still maintain high quality.I personally would like to see some shorter games so I actually could go back & play through a second time using a different class,strategy,etc. instead of playing through once and then throwing it into the rpg vault (ever-expanding closet).
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:38 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
They should be shorter, focused, intense, non-repetitive. Most manufacturers are going with quantity over quality because so many gamers judge a good game in this way. I cannot count how often the first and in many cases the most important question gamers ask is how long a game it is. It is sad.
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Sun Aug 25, 2002 12:39 am |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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| Re: Do RP games require too much time to play? |
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quote:
Originally posted by shaman's tear
This month's PC Gamer mag has an interesting RPG column discussing the huge amount of time required to finish most of today's rp games vs. actually having that much free time to devote...especially difficult when your a rp junkie(as I) and would like to play through as many of the new games being released as possible.Throw a mmorpg game into the mix and it becomes even worse to find the extra time to spend on the sp games.The column asks the question is it really necessary for a good rpg to require 80-100 hours to complete instead of 30-40 hours and still maintain high quality.I personally would like to see some shorter games so I actually could go back & play through a second time using a different class,strategy,etc. instead of playing through once and then throwing it into the rpg vault (ever-expanding closet).
Heh, I guess I disagree with ya heartily on this one. I would love quality games to be longer, so long as they maintain their quality. I love epic games that take 100+ hours to finish, so long as they don't dwindle in gameplay towards the end. Also, you actually try to play as many new games as possible? That's an expensive proposition, my friend. I want every $40 game I purchase to last me a long time; if it could last me a full year, that would make me very happy 
- Wind |
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Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:16 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
I'm with Windwalking on this one. I've only played 6 RPGs this year. Wizardry 8, a third time through Gothic, a who knows how many times through Fallout 2, Avernum 2, another time through BG2 + ToB expansion, and now NWN. With all the modules being released for NWN it will certainly last me a long time. The only other two games that I'm definately planning on playing this year are Gothic 2 and Divinity. I'll probably replay another game or two as well. I don't have to try out all the new games. I just want to play the ones I know I'll like and will last for a long time.
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Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:35 am |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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I agree with Wind (I've been doing that a lot lately).
I wouldn't mind seeing some shorter games if they caped the price at $30. |
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Sun Aug 25, 2002 2:33 am |
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mikelhall
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 275
Location: Greensboro, NC |
I don't think the length of the game is that important. Quality is the key, and replayability. If it takes you 40-50 hours the first time, and that's the only time you play it, great. Then go back and replay from a different perspective and double your enjoyment! I'm a nook and cranny type of game player, I don't like to leave any are unexplored, etc. so it usually takes me beyond the average time to finish. If the game is too big (MW) then, I lose interest, as I get overwhelmed by trying to go everywhere.
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Sun Aug 25, 2002 3:27 am |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
I like epic games like Wizardry 8 or Daggerfall, but also short games like Return to Krondor or Fallout 1.
Quality is the key, not quantity. It is always good for a rpg to keep up the challenge and fun up to the end. A game, that is lengthened by too much (easy) combat or long walking ways, gets boring fast.
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Sun Aug 25, 2002 4:29 am |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
I've had a theory about the future of the RPG type games and hopefully some young budding enterpreneur(sp?) hears this and makes a bundle off it. (Hopefully this person will remember where they got the idea too  )
I've noticed that the games are slowly going in that direction, but they haven't fleshed out the actual formula for sucess.
The ultimate game of the future will actually be nothing but a highly scriptable framework with some basic common interface. Upon this interface you can build a theme. Imagine an RPG that illustrates James Bond or Indiana Jones type character/story. This basic interface to the framework would be represented by a central office/base of operations/lab/etc. Then what you would actually buy as a piece of software would be installments to the story. Or missions, adventures,... Or whatever you want to call them. They would be short (maybe 2-5 hours) quick games one can do in a day or two. They would also cost small amounts of money (maybe $5). They would plug seamlessly into the framework and would extend it. The main framework coudl be somehow modified to signify the completion of such an expansion module. E.g. a trophy, medal, new piece of furniture, a pet, etc. Now, all of a sudden, you turn a one time game development engine into an unlimited source of income that never gets stale for as long as the expansions are kept interesting. But, unlike current get-a-game-plus-some-toolkits-to-expand software, this one would be from ground up an expandable software.
It's a paradigm shift that is necessary. The 40-50 hour single player modules need to be gone.
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Sun Aug 25, 2002 4:42 am |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
I've had a theory about the future of the RPG type games and hopefully some young budding enterpreneur(sp?) hears this and makes a bundle off it. (Hopefully this person will remember where they got the idea too )
I've noticed that the games are slowly going in that direction, but they haven't fleshed out the actual formula for sucess.
The ultimate game of the future will actually be nothing but a highly scriptable framework with some basic common interface. Upon this interface you can build a theme. Imagine an RPG that illustrates James Bond or Indiana Jones type character/story. This basic interface to the framework would be represented by a central office/base of operations/lab/etc. Then what you would actually buy as a piece of software would be installments to the story. Or missions, adventures,... Or whatever you want to call them. They would be short (maybe 2-5 hours) quick games one can do in a day or two. They would also cost small amounts of money (maybe $5). They would plug seamlessly into the framework and would extend it. The main framework coudl be somehow modified to signify the completion of such an expansion module. E.g. a trophy, medal, new piece of furniture, a pet, etc. Now, all of a sudden, you turn a one time game development engine into an unlimited source of income that never gets stale for as long as the expansions are kept interesting. But, unlike current get-a-game-plus-some-toolkits-to-expand software, this one would be from ground up an expandable software.
It's a paradigm shift that is necessary. The 40-50 hour single player modules need to be gone.
That's a very interesting concept, and I think that's a very good idea... for some types of games. However, there are two things working against you:
1) Gamers are often lazy, and won't want to make 8 $5.00 purchases to have the same playing time as a "normal" RPG. Unless broadband connections and internet pay is much more widespread than it is currently, this will be a major hindrance.
2) Gamers (including myself) often want epic storylines with themes that span between different adventures. A modularized concept would be good for some types of games (Diablo-clones especially), but people often get much more involved in stories if certain themes and characters (esp. the big bad dudes) continue throughout the thread of the game.
I think your concept may eventually find its place in the market, but it won't by any means kill off the "traditional" paradigm of the epic RPG.
- Wind |
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Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:01 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
I agree with Windwalking & Val.
I don't want CRPGs to be too short. That usually happens more often in FPS, you could finish the whole game around 10 hours or so. The only things to make me accept this kind of CRPGs is a lot of replay factors. But a lot of replay factors could also mean games that require much time to play...
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Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:13 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
I'm with Windwalking and Val, also.
Clearly, quality *is* more important than quantity, but where possible, I like my RPGs "epic".
Actually, I don't think there's *that* many good releases in a year. Sometimes they come is a rush, but generally I find the arrival of new games manageable. For example, I've finished NWN SP and I have several weeks to explore user modules - now I'm keen for IWD2 next month.
So, by selecting quality titles (based on reviews, research etc) I've generally finished a title well before the next "big one" comes along; I don't need shorter games to fit them all in.
Short games are endemic in FPS. I quite enjoyed Max Payne and ST: Elite Force, but I was really disappointed that my new purchase was finished in a weekend. RPGs need a longer story arc and time to develop the character to be successful.
I think Avernum was released in a chapter-by-chapter fashion; I see Val listed it so perhaps she can verify this and comment on whether it was a good idea. |
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Sun Aug 25, 2002 6:23 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Avernum 2 was released in the "epic" format. I hear they will be releasing Avernum 3 soon, I might have to download that one too. And I still need to try out Geneforge. That one looks quite promising. Hmm... I think I'll go download the demo right now...
There have been several NWN user campaigns released that are sort of like what Moondragon suggests. The Penultima campaign has a central city with lots to do, then you can access each of the campaign modules through the adventurer guild. Each module is around 2 to 5 hours long (depends on if your playing single or multiplayer). I've rather enjoyed that campaign and look forward to the second one. Especially since it's free. 
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Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
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Sun Aug 25, 2002 7:53 am |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
As far as I see, epicness of a game has nothing to do with its length. I could be wrong, but I still can't see it.
What's to prevent you from saving the world in 5 hours instead of 50 hours?
Hmm... I was just working on an analogy, when I had an epiphany. What I'm proposing, if translated into literary terms is short stories. What current gaming industry serves us, exclusively, is novels. One is not better than the other. They are both valid literary terms. They are equally potent and expressive. But they each have their own pros and cons. What I was proposing though, would be a collection of short stories on the same topic. Set in the same universe. Imagine a set of short stories as a TV series. Like TNG or something. Where every story is set in the same universe, but they are each an independent story of its own. Short story to be more precise.
As far as epicness, I see this deveoping in two directions. One could be James Bond like universe, in which you have to save the world every time, in 5 or so hours. Or, something like Inspector Gadget where you have one arch-nemesis and every "episode" consists of foiling his evil plots. Perhaps when the publisher is ready to wrap up the story, they could have an ultra-epic conclusion to the series where you capture your arch-nemesis.
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Sun Aug 25, 2002 4:24 pm |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
quote:
Actually, I don't think there's *that* many good releases in a year. Sometimes they come is a rush, but generally I find the arrival of new games manageable. For example, I've finished NWN SP and I have several weeks to explore user modules - now I'm keen for IWD2 next month.
I agree for normal years, but this year is different - I played
Wizardry 8 (and replayed Wizardry 6 + 7 for a good import party)
Morrowind
Jagged Alliance 2 - Deidranna lives !
Edge of Chaos 2 (released as nice price game this year)
Arx Fatalis
Warcraft 3
Divine Divinity
I am at my absolute time-limit at the moment.
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Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:32 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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It's kinda hard to have a great and intense story in a 40 hour long game.
First of all, players want to feel involved, and want to have the background etc. when they play an rpg. It's hard to give all that in a 40 hour adventure.
I want to understand what kind of world I'm in when playing an rpg.
Besides, most games are like 80+ hours because of the extra material and side quests. That's another thing which is quite important in an rpg; the feeling of freedom, and the ability to do other things than the main quest.
Baldurs Gate 2 is probably around 50 hours long if you strip away all the extra material, but then you would have more of an "adventure-game".
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Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:53 pm |
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