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DzD
Unknown
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 7140
Location: Sweden |
Linux is still alive, and it's rising! Even some goverments uses it just because it's free.
_________________
There once was a youngster, DzD
Whose avatars numbered infinity
But I must admit
His latest, a hit
Cuz the Little One's a mystery to me
Written by - dteowner |
Mon Nov 25, 2002 5:18 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Um, i hate to seem like Im picking on your posts, Gothic,but the statement that Gates will be *forgotten* is pretty unlikely. He's like the richest individual that has ever lived. He's one of the most powerful businessmen on the planet. This whole series of posts started around the paranoid idea that he could literally seize the entire Earth's computers and electronics.And alot of people believe just that! He's hated, feared, and idolized by millions of people. Gates' name will be in the history books. If anything, you sir, with all due respect, are the one who will be forgotten, not him.
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Mon Nov 25, 2002 9:55 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
If anything, you sir, with all due respect, are the one who will be forgotten, not him.
Who? I forget who you were talking about  .
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Mon Nov 25, 2002 10:10 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Gerad
I can understand the fervor of defense of this issue now, is a fireman going to hate arsonists
As a gamer who pays for her entertainment I will always dislike those who don't, especially when there is nothing stopping them from doing so.
quote:
Originally posted by Gerad
I sincerely hope you wouldn’t want a person's hand cut off for copying a video game, I hope we can least agree on this issue the penalty would be to pay a fine.
Oh, I don't know, I rather like ironic justice. Chop off their mouse hand and they'll have a devil of a time trying to play the games they steal.
quote:
Originally posted by Gerad
and this is to you VAL just because someone disagrees with your views doesn’t make them bad , or even wrong I hope you wouldn’t ban a person for simply disagreeing with you, or being arrogant as you say.
I'll ban a person for calling someone else a "fasist Nazi", not because they have a different opinion. (I haven't banned Darkfall14 by the way, I've only issued warnings.) I've disagreed with several people and have issued them no warnings. I've agreed with some people and I've issued them warnings because they didn't follow the rules of the forum.
If someone steals, especially when they don't have to, I will consider them a bad person.
quote:
Originally posted by Gerad
The truth is we cannot resolve the conflict here, in the end it amounts what a person’s definition of stealing is. I for one don’t consider copying a friend’s videogame theft.
I do. Those who make the product do. Most of the governments of the world do. You're a little outnumbered here pal.
quote:
Originally posted by Gerad
In my opinion theft is taking something from someone without paying for it. Nothing is stolen since the game is bought and paid for. Only in the abstract sense is there a theft.
First, under the fair use clause, no provision is given to support your theory. You are stealing because you will now not buy the product because you already have a copy of it. Why pay for what you already have? This is why pirating is stealing. You are denying the creator the right to make a profit for their hard work.
quote:
Originally posted by Gerad
It’s my belief that once you have bought something you may do whatever you want with what you have bought. Though the law doesn`t always agree with my belief I`ll admit.
That's your opinion. According to the developers of the product, your opinion is wrong. According to the laws of most countries your opinion is wrong. I'll agree with them.
quote:
Originally posted by Gerad
And before more legal nonsense is thrown at me I agree that UNDER THE LAW making a copy of videogame is a violation of copyright law. So I guess that makes me a thief UNDER THE LAW, no excuses I`ll agree to that.
Now the next step is to stop being a thief.
quote:
Originally posted by Gerad
though it amounts to a philosophical question in the end. Rather or not you have the law on you side, simply because the law says something does not make it correct, there are laws banning the use of drugs however is drug use wrong in the deepest sense? yet another philosophical question.
Since when has the wrongness of stealing been a philosophical question? Quit trying to hide your guilt and attempts to justify your actions behind nonsense.
I also completely agree with Roach on the issue of drugs.
quote:
Originally posted by Gerad
Laws are made by the powerful for the powerful’s interest the law may say that copying a game is theft that I do not disagree with however is making a copy of something truly theft??? That is a philosophical question and is really a matter of opinion.
I don't know what dictatorship you live in, but from where I come from laws are created to protect the rights and freedoms of innocent people. That's the basic reason for having laws. This includes protecting the rights of creators to benefit and profit from their creations.
quote:
Originally posted by Gerad
That is what interesting about this world everyone is different we have different opinions and points of view. There are people who have views which are repugnant to me, but I would rather have a world with a variety of opinions then a boring one where everyone thinks the same and I hope the rest of you would at least agree to that!
I wouldn't mind living in a world where everyone was true to their word and people didn't hurt others to serve their own selfish desires.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Tue Nov 26, 2002 1:01 am |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
This is why pirating is stealing. You are denying the creator the right to make a profit for their hard work.
Loaning a book to friends is also denying the creator the right to make a profit for their hard work. Videotaping a TV show (thus not buying the produced video tape or to give to a friend who does not subscribe to that channel) is also denying the creator the right to make a profit for their hard work. There are many more examples. This rationale doesn't really work.
quote:
I don't know what dictatorship you live in, but from where I come from laws are created to protect the rights and freedoms of innocent people. That's the basic reason for having laws. This includes protecting the rights of creators to benefit and profit from their creations.
So, what you are basically saying that because something is a law it is by definition a good thing. This logic also doesn't work well since throughout time there are many, many examples of "laws" that were later demonstrated to be unjust, untenable, unworthy, etc. After all, America started itself off with a bang by deciding for itself that many of the laws imposed by Britain (the people who legally ran our little patch of land) were unjust (really they just didn't like them and we have since imposed essentially the very same laws on ourselves) - note that we really didn't give a darn that Britain felt the laws were just.
The justness of many (if not most) of the laws imposed by governments is a relative issue (perhaps not a philosophical one but relative none the less). For instance you may legally copy a TV program and give it to a friend (just not resell it), you may legally copy (if you really want to bother) a book and give it to a friend - but you cannot legally copy a game and give it to a friend. Why? What is the real difference? The only real difference is that the lobbying effort was stronger in one case than another - the television industry tried VERY, VERY HARD to make videotaping TV shows illegal!
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Tue Nov 26, 2002 1:38 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
I didn't say that all laws are just. I said that the purpose of laws (at least as provided by the U.S. Constitution) is to protect the rights and freedoms of innocent citizens.
I don't deny that some laws are wrong. That's why they tend to be struck down by the Supreme Court because they are found unconstitutional.
Btw, I don't lend anyone I know anything. If they want it, I recommend they buy it or rent it.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Tue Nov 26, 2002 1:49 am |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
Btw, I don't lend anyone I know anything. If they want it, I recommend they buy it or rent it.
I am happy for you, however, you ignored the point.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Tue Nov 26, 2002 1:58 am |
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Kayla
High Emperor
Joined: 26 Nov 2002
Posts: 2114
Location: Australia |
Please be nice... this is my first post.
I don't think Val (or some of the others) have missed your point.
I think it is a case giving credit where credit is due and paying $80AUD for a game for 40/60/80 hours playing time.
My better half and I wanted to play NWN multiplayer, so we went and purchased two copies- our computers are less than a meter apart but it is only fair to pay the developers for their creativity and the effort and time they put into their product.
There have been games I have purchased and didn't like- so what- spend another $80, get another game and continue the fun!!!
Books are the same- if you read a good book recommend it to a friend and make them buy it!
In my opinion borrowing a book or borrowing a game is the same thing- if you haven't paid for it- you shouldn't use it.
(as I said... please be nice  ) |
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Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:04 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Welcome to RPGDot Kayla!
Sorry I didn't have time to write a large dissertation, Joey. I had to get to class. The difference with software and the examples you stated is the license agreement. When you buy software you are not buying the actual program. You are buying a license to use the program. In the license agreement of commercial software it will state that you may not distribute copies of the software whether you are selling it or not. When you copy and give your friend that copy, you are in breach of the contract you agreed to when you installed the software. The End User Agreement is a legally binding contract and you can be sued when you break that contract.
Not to mention, it's hardly ethical to run around breaking your word.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:12 am |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Kayla
Please be nice... this is my first post.
I always try to be nice (well at least I intend to be nice) whether I succeed in the attempt or not .
quote:
I think it is a case giving credit where credit is due and paying $80AUD for a game for 40/60/80 hours playing time.
My better half and I wanted to play NWN multiplayer, so we went and purchased two copies- our computers are less than a meter apart but it is only fair to pay the developers for their creativity and the effort and time they put into their product.
I agree completely - never disagreed.
quote:
Books are the same- if you read a good book recommend it to a friend and make them buy it!
In my opinion borrowing a book or borrowing a game is the same thing- if you haven't paid for it- you shouldn't use it.
But that is just the point I am making - they ARE different (legally). One may legally copy the book and loan it to a friend but one may not (legally) do the same with a game. By the primary argument being used here (it is only fair that the maker get money for each use), these are the same issues and should (under the law) be treated the same. But they are not.
quote:
(as I said... please be nice )
Was that gentle enough ?
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:25 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
Sorry I didn't have time to write a large dissertation, Joey. I had to get to class.
That's ok - this is always one of the problems with this form of communication. By it's very nature there are delays and without being able to see and hear the other parties, one never knows when one is being ignored  .
quote:
The difference with software and the examples you stated is the license agreement.
This, however, is begging the issue. This only means that the lobbyists for the software groups did a better job of curtailing the "rights" of the consumer than did the book lobbyists. In general laws must be (well, should be) consistant, fair and reasonable with respect to other (similar)
laws. This is not the case here. In truth, all the very stringent license agreement (very unlike the same agreement set by law for books for instance) really represents is a legal strong arm tactic.
Understand I am not trying to make a case for software piracy - however, I do believe there is a big gap between true piracy (that which genuinely harms the manufacturer) and legitimate private use. Making extremely stringent and limiting laws (for anything really) that curtail too many legitimate uses of software (I consider copying for archival backup and copying so a friend can try a piece of software as examples of extremely legitimate consumer uses)
quote:
The End User Agreement is a legally binding contract and you can be sued when you break that contract.
Not to mention, it's hardly ethical to run around breaking your word.
I agree that it is generally unethical to break your work. However, if the contract is unduly harsh then I can consider my agreement null and void (from an ethical point of view and even sometimes a legal point of view).
It is unethical for a manufacturer (or anybody) to set unduly harsh (or inappropriate) conditions on a contract - when they do, the contract can be considered void.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:43 pm |
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ButtOfMalmsey
Village Idiot
Joined: 07 May 2002
Posts: 785
Location: Mississippi |
Just one question, Joey- since when can someone fully copy a book and loan it to a friend? I'm sure that unless the book is in the public domain (a difficult thing for a book, rather than a text, to be), you can't copy the entire text of a book.
_________________
"It has been a grand journey- well-worth making once."
-Winston Churchill, 1965, on Life
I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to SPEED around a city, keeping its SPEED over fifty, and if its SPEED dropped, it would explode. I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."
-Homer Simpson
=Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Member of The Sixth House=
::Captain of the Black Company:: |
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Tue Nov 26, 2002 4:38 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by ButtOfMalmsey
Just one question, Joey- since when can someone fully copy a book and loan it to a friend? I'm sure that unless the book is in the public domain (a difficult thing for a book, rather than a text, to be), you can't copy the entire text of a book.
Well, I can certainly be incorrect, but I have never seen anything that says otherwise. My reading of the appropriate laws suggests that you can copy any part (which would include the whole) as long as you don't do certain things (resell, republish, pass as your own work, etc.). The reason that nobody DOES copy an entire book is that it would be extremely tedious and in many cases more expensive than simply buying the book in the first place.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Tue Nov 26, 2002 5:12 pm |
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Kayla
High Emperor
Joined: 26 Nov 2002
Posts: 2114
Location: Australia |
There is still a difference.
@ Joey Nipps Even if you think it's ok to lend a book to a mate- the difference is why they have it you don't and you cannot simultaneously enjoy it. The other difference is if you lend a book and it is wrecked it is gone- game piracy you just make another copy, so it's a never ending source of not giving credit where credit is due.
I think any form of not paying for a game or book you use is wrong- but with your points there is still the difference of simultaneous enjoyment of the product.
And I agree with Val, the copyright agreement is there to say you agree to the terms and conditions of use of the product.
P.S Thanks for being nice Joey! 
I was a bit scared this would be me after your reply 
_________________
Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.
Robert A. Heinlein |
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Wed Nov 27, 2002 12:27 pm |
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