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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
| Some Morrowind thoughts.... |
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I usually buy only games, that are good, but hey the best make mistakes too.
I am sure getting flamed by saying this on morrowind board, but Morrowind was a big letdown for me and thats my oppinion after many hours of gameplay.I've finnished it if you can finnish this some way..I did main guest and few others like mperial legion and so.I tried playing it with different characters like warrior or mage, but the final outcame was allways the same for me.
I just don't get it.Why do people rate Elder Scrolls of MOrrowind so high.Sure Morrowind was a joy for an eye and ear,but so are many other games.Thought I found very fun to create own kind of character.Mw has a very rich world(history,culture) like we all know.Skillsystem was perfect too.If I wanted to raise my alchemy skill i needed to make potions,it makes sense to me.Infact this was the best way to incorporate skills into game i've seen ever  .Sadly many other things weren't that great.
1).Like we have these lifeless NPCs.They just kept talking and walking.Day and night sycle didn't have any other effect than showing nicely done graphics.If you wanted to "live" in mw it sure takes a lot of effort.Npcs never do simple things like sleep or eat.Let me give you an example: you enter into pub what would you expect to see?Lets think about it a moment.There probably would be people hanging on bardesk, drinking something and chatting with eachother.I would see bartender making drinks for everyone.I would see people sitting on chairs.In the night they would go home and get some sleep.In morrowind it feels like someone has pushed stop button and world has completly stopped moving...
2).Then guests were quite frequently: "search this place/npc/item" or "kill that npc/creature".Fortunately at the very least main guest offered many fun and varied missions.
3).The fighting is...There opponents standing before eachother and it's only mouse-clicking-clicking..goodness gracious!No combos,no secret tricks..simply pushing attackbutton and hacking eachother dead, sometimes using spell or two ,drinking a potion,when needed.Fighting should have been more like blade of darkness(like having abbility to do combos and use shield on your own!).also when i hack someone on the leg he/she should fall atleast!Magic-system was quite allright thought, but like fighting it didn't have any "balls".I mean when i hit someone with a fireball, I would asume to see some apparent efects like monster getting thrown away or bursting into flames.
4).Journal,well after few days it becomes quite annoying thing to read...
5).About enemies and monters I'll only say that this was probably the biggest frustration in mw after lifeless npcs and world.Those creatures have two basic moods: First we have this lonely poor monter standing still waiting player to come by and ending its pitifull existence.Then after(me)player approachs, The monster regardless of its own life rushes madly and gets killed with few strikes(sometimes getting stuck in the rock, but thats an other story).Fights never get too thrilling...
Soon you realise after level 20 or so,enemies won't offer any real challenge.Where were all the badass monsters?Only big bad monter at the end gave some challenge to my ultimate Knight.I wasn't even trying to make any god like character.You could allmoust go anywhere,kill anybody no one bothered.
And what is wrong with that person who desinged those flying birds?!He must be a sadist of somekind 
6).Ok most disturbing thing i can think off in mw, is how player him/herself has no apparent effect to the world.You can be Knight of the imperial dragon,but DOES that mean anything to any NPC or the world itself?Hell it doesn't!Some folks greet you differently or sell stuff with lover price,but thats all i can think off.I would have loved to actually give orders or take some troops with me to raid some dungeons or be part in mw's daily politics etc.World, that we have in mw won't change at all Everything is the same old shit like it allways is.Even after mainguest world feels same as ever, expect one tiny craphical change, that i quessed right after the starting the game..
You probably think i am not a big fan of rpgs?Thats not true,cause i have enjoyed games like Fallout 1&2, Arx Fatalis,Deus Ex and gothic etc...Perhaps Morrowind isn't just my cup of tea.
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
Sun Mar 23, 2003 2:18 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
I've seen every one of your complaints posted by others, so it's not just you. I enjoyed MW, particularly from a character development standpoint, but I found that I soon ran out of motivation to do quests. There was little difference for your character between clearing some tomb for a quest and clearing some tomb you found while wandering. Why take a quest that runs you all over the island when you can improve you character just as well wandering the woods around Balmora?
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Sun Mar 23, 2003 5:03 am |
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Lord_Brownie
High Emperor
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 575
Location: Unfashionable arm of the spiral galaxy |
I thought the game was ok, but not great. I agree with your pionts about the game. Esp. about combat: combat in "dungeons of the necro. domain" was more exciting. Although, I hate combo moves and arcade like stuff, give me back the old daggerfall style swinging for me. When I think about what went wrong with Morrowind for my 'arm chair' programer and player piont of view it falls into two catagories:
1. I think that Bethesda spent soo much time on graphics and getting out a bug free project that they left out development of game play. The graphics had to look good to be a main stream saler in todays markets, so they had to get that peg in the hole; and they had to make this title very low on bugs for it to be a comercial success-or thier reputation from Daggerfall and Redguard would have killed any sales shortly after luanch. They successed in both accounts, the graphics where good and the bugs kept to a minium. However, the lack of game play development cost. Better combat and more monsters would have made a huge difference in replay ablity, even with boring NPCs.
2. I think the better the grahics in a game, the more the game needs to be fleshed out in details. In the 80s when I played DND or Phantasy on computer, I used my imgination all the time. As a matter of fact 80% of those games was my imagination working to flesh them out. Now with modern graphics I can see the kitchen table set, I can see beds, and items that people in the real world USE for something. Most folks dont have a completely set dinning room table because they like the graphics, they have it because they like to eat. Beds are not in our homes for because they look nice; although we may choice a bed that looks nice. Now that my imgation is not working to build most of the world, I need the computer to render the actions I espect in a world along with the cups and plates, the pillows and sheets.
LB |
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Sun Mar 23, 2003 12:04 pm |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
| Re: Some Morrowind thoughts.... |
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quote:
Originally posted by Dez
...I just don't get it. Why do people rate Elder Scrolls of MOrrowind so high.
Very easy answer: taste, different view points among gamer. In this case, many gamers and reviewers view the game favourbably. It got more than 60 awards from various game magazine or game websites. Not many game receive this kind treatment, only title like Deus Ex, etc. It sell more than one million copy for original game & first expansion (not include soon to be released Bloodmoon). Box-office & Widely popular game for Xbox, which made Microsoft to release Plantinum Edition.
quote:
Originally posted by Dez
...And what is wrong with that person who desinged those flying birds?!He must be a sadist of somekind .
I could be wrong, but i think it's Todd Howard's idea & design (Project leader?) to put Clif Racer into the game. Almost all people hate that thing. He now probably smiling sheepishly behind his desk. |
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Sun Mar 23, 2003 2:02 pm |
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TheSleeper8119
Magister of the Light
Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 386
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I agree with Dez. After hearing so much about Morrowind I expected it to be an amazing game but when I bought it I was really suprised at how unimpressive it really was  The graphics were good but the music was boring and the NPC's weren't so impressive with AI or anything either. |
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Sun Mar 23, 2003 3:05 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
2).Then guests were quite frequently: "search this place/npc/item" or "kill that npc/creature".Fortunately at the very least main guest offered many fun and varied missions.
Ok, IF you consider this a problem, then virtually EVERY rpg has this problem. ALMOST every rpg I've ever played has an overflow of this kind of missions.
Even though, if you did the guild/house quests, you would find quite a lot of variation between the quests.
quote:
3).The fighting is...There opponents standing before eachother and it's only mouse-clicking-clicking..goodness gracious!No combos,no secret tricks..simply pushing attackbutton and hacking eachother dead, sometimes using spell or two ,drinking a potion,when needed.Fighting should have been more like blade of darkness(like having abbility to do combos and use shield on your own!).also when i hack someone on the leg he/she should fall atleast!Magic-system was quite allright thought, but like fighting it didn't have any "balls".I mean when i hit someone with a fireball, I would asume to see some apparent efects like monster getting thrown away or bursting into flames.
There aren't too many rpgs that have this reality feeling, example: if you hit someone in the arm, he drops his weapon - you won't see that too often.
Sure it would be a nice addition, but looking at other rpgs, you won't see this.
Combos are horrible, by that I mean key-combos, I'm NOT the one who's supposed to be skilled at fighting, my character is, I'm just supposed to overviewly tell him what to do.
Sure, combat got pretty boring in MW, but that was MOSTLY because your character became so incredibly powerful. Also, I do agree that there should be some different "attacks" you gain at higher level, but that's it.
These "effects" you talk about (having monsters burning when hit by a fireball), it's NOT like they're USUAL, you can say the same thing about almost every other rpg, SPECIALLY about those other rpgs you listed.
I think the best things about Morrowind was it's relative un-linearity, the graphics, the Mod building and the huge world.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Sun Mar 23, 2003 3:21 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
I think the best things about Morrowind was it's relative un-linearity, the graphics, the Mod building and the huge world.
After griping for years about linear stories, MW gave me the open-ended experience I'd asked for. It didn't work out as well as I thought. I think that's more an issue with me than with the game, which is why I say MW is a GREAT game that I just couldn't get into.
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Sun Mar 23, 2003 3:57 pm |
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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
[/quote]
Ok, IF you consider this a problem, then virtually EVERY rpg has this problem. ALMOST every rpg I've ever played has an overflow of this kind of missions.
Even though, if you did the guild/house quests, you would find quite a lot of variation between the quests.[/quote]
Yeah i have to admit, that some of the guests were quite orginal like taking a glove from that woman in love to her good-looking robber..but why oh why did that young lady still kept standing alone beside that road after i did all what she asked?Why didn't she just go to see the man she wanted me to find?That is an example when i said "nothing changes".Thats why most guests feeled so boring, outcome did not have any vissible efect to world or the inhabitants in it.
quote:
There aren't too many rpgs that have this reality feeling, example: if you hit someone in the arm, he drops his weapon - you won't see that too often.
Sure it would be a nice addition, but looking at other rpgs, you won't see this.
Combos are horrible, by that I mean key-combos, I'm NOT the one who's supposed to be skilled at fighting, my character is, I'm just supposed to overviewly tell him what to do.
Sure, combat got pretty boring in MW, but that was MOSTLY because your character became so incredibly powerful. Also, I do agree that there should be some different "attacks" you gain at higher level, but that's it.
These "effects" you talk about (having monsters burning when hit by a fireball), it's NOT like they're USUAL, you can say the same thing about almost every other rpg, SPECIALLY about those other rpgs you listed.
I think the best things about Morrowind was it's relative un-linearity, the graphics, the Mod building and the huge world.
Well we have a very different view how fighting should be handled.I love to learn how to fightmyself,I dont want a computer to do it for me. I think it increases the immersion in the game..When your fighter raises a level he learns more moves, he learns to combine them etc..I think its quite boring to have only 3 differents strikes all the time.
Effects i am talking about aren't very usual, but in gothic there were some, and there were some in ARX fatalis too.SO i expected to see those efects in mw aswell.With out those "effects" magic feels truly dull.
I think its better to have smaller and living like world than huge dead place with lifeless inhabitants.As strong story is much more important than un-linearity IMO.The balance beetween these two is relative hard to find.
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
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Sun Mar 23, 2003 5:07 pm |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
Hi Dez,
I understand your complaints but most what you said is already been said or discussed long time ago in other threads.
Anyway, don't buy a game just because reviewers or other people said it's good, what is more important is what kind of RPGs you like. NWN & MW are both for rather different RPG markets, same as title like Gothic. Some people could like all the three titles, but some don't. Some people really like Wizardry 8, but i think it's just o.k with gameplay that sometime can be annoying (for me).
I agree that MW got some shortcomings, but it acceptability can wildly different between gamers.
It's matter of gameplay preferences between gamers. If Morrowind is really that bad as you said, then the "bad elements" are not bad at all since the game is still very popular, sold well, and it forums & modding community still very active after one year. The case pretty much same with NWN. |
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Sun Mar 23, 2003 6:58 pm |
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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
Remus,
Yeap I understand quite well.Like i said earlier perhaps mw isn't just my cup of tea .For me those bad elements weighted a great deal more compared good elements like characterter development or rich history.I just expected so much more than "the best rpg ever" actually was able to offer.
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
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Sun Mar 23, 2003 7:16 pm |
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InSaNe
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 09 Nov 2002
Posts: 174
Location: Netherlands |
wouldn't stuff like that (u know ppl drinking beer and all..) make the game need much more memory and all?
just asking.. dont flame me 
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Never argue with a nOOb, First they take you down to their level and then they kill you with their skills |
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Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:10 pm |
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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
quote:
Originally posted by InSaNe
wouldn't stuff like that (u know ppl drinking beer and all..) make the game need much more memory and all?
just asking.. dont flame me
Heh, probably some way, but i think mw loads every area separately, like when you enter into house etc.I bet someone with some knowledge can confirm this
And stuff like people sitting or drinking beer is just a matter of clever scripting to put people do such things.It makes gameworld much more alive.I don't its not a bad investment to do so..Not too much trouble for developers if they are bothered to do so.
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
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Tue Mar 25, 2003 11:59 am |
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cfmdobbie
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 1859
Location: London, England |
In general, yeah. Any added animations will incur a small penalty on RAM, more diverse graphics will incur a greater penalty. A better AI system will require more processing power.
_________________
Charlie Dobbie
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Moderator of the Morrowind/Oblivion Forums= |
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Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:25 pm |
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kalniel
Village Dweller
Joined: 30 Oct 2002
Posts: 13
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| Re: Some Morrowind thoughts.... |
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I might be able to answer some of your questions, but ultimately people do have their own tastes and priorities. For me, Morrowind gets the things that are most important to me right, so I can overlook other short comings. But onto some points.
quote:
Originally posted by Dez
1).Like we have these lifeless NPCs.They just kept talking and walking.Day and night sycle didn't have any other effect than showing nicely done graphics.
This was a design decision to make the game more accessible. Instead of having to loiter around until shops opened, the devs felt players preferred being able to shop at all hours.
Some NPCs do patrol and move about, but your right that a lot don't. Maybe this was to cut down on AI pathfinding that would take up the already precious CPU cycles?
quote:
2).Then guests were quite frequently: "search this place/npc/item" or "kill that npc/creature".Fortunately at the very least main guest offered many fun and varied missions.
Compared to some other games, and certainly Daggerfall before it, Morrowind has better quests - remember watching Fargoth? All the quests were hand crafted rather than randomly generated at least.
quote:
3).The fighting is...There opponents standing before eachother and it's only mouse-clicking-clicking..goodness gracious!No combos,no secret tricks..simply pushing attackbutton and hacking eachother dead
Have you tried turning off 'use best attack'? If this is turned off then you can do different attacks based on which direction you are moving in, ala Jedi knight. This makes fighting a bit more skillful.
quote:
also when i hack someone on the leg he/she should fall atleast
Locational damage was actually in the game during testing, but it was removed because it was too easy to see what an NPC was wearing then take him down easily by targeting an unarmoured location.
There is limited reactions to various attacks - powerful blows offen stagger an opponent to their knees. Bow shots often knock them back etc.
quote:
4).Journal,well after few days it becomes quite annoying thing to read...
This has now been improved with the expansion so you have more options to sort the journal.
quote:
5).About enemies and monters I'll only say that this was probably the biggest frustration in mw after lifeless npcs and world.Those creatures have two basic moods: First we have this lonely poor monter standing still waiting player to come by and ending its pitifull existence.Then after(me)player approachs, The monster regardless of its own life rushes madly and gets killed with few strikes(sometimes getting stuck in the rock, but thats an other story).Fights never get too thrilling...
Soon you realise after level 20 or so,enemies won't offer any real challenge.
Again this is now better, but still, morrowind does give you the freedom to create an uber powerful character quite easily. Its not designed to be an action game, it's designed for people who like roleplaying characters. So if you find it easy, try roleplaying a more peaceful/less skilled character.
quote:
And what is wrong with that person who desinged those flying birds?!He must be a sadist of somekind
Ok, we all agree with you on that one!
quote:
6).Ok most disturbing thing i can think off in mw, is how player him/herself has no apparent effect to the world.You can be Knight of the imperial dragon,but DOES that mean anything to any NPC or the world itself?Hell it doesn't!Some folks greet you differently or sell stuff with lover price,but thats all i can think off.I would have loved to actually give orders or take some troops with me to raid some dungeons or be part in mw's daily politics etc.World, that we have in mw won't change at all Everything is the same old shit like it allways is.Even after mainguest world feels same as ever, expect one tiny craphical change, that i quessed right after the starting the game..
Fair enough. I'm glad that at least we can carry on after the main quest. I can only guess that not more changes were made because the majority of players will spend more time pre-end of main plot that after.
Kalniel |
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Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:15 pm |
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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
| Re: Some Morrowind thoughts.... |
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quote:
Originally posted by kalniel
I might be able to answer some of your questions, but ultimately people do have their own tastes and priorities. For me, Morrowind gets the things that are most important to me right, so I can overlook other short comings. But onto some points.
This was a design decision to make the game more accessible. Instead of having to loiter around until shops opened, the devs felt players preferred being able to shop at all hours.
Some NPCs do patrol and move about, but your right that a lot don't. Maybe this was to cut down on AI pathfinding that would take up the already precious CPU cycles?
Ok sorry, that i haven't beeen able to answer earlier, i've been merely very busy this week 
This was stupid decision then.Why on earth would thing like that increase immersion?If shops would be closed during the night it would be only realistic..Ofcourse not every shop should be closed.After all there could be some 24 h open shops like in in real life.It would be only realistic to make people to get some sleep at night.When you enter a city at night what would you expect?It is just so dull to see all the npcs standing there all the time.Those patroling npcs were as stupid as standing npcs..They didn't actually do anything(expec.t for guards).Why didn't benthesa render more animations to them, like we could have smith forging weapons etc..it wouldn't be too much of trouble, only matter of some inteligent animations and scripting...
From the first they shouldn't have wasted so much effort on splendid craphics instead of gameplay, wich matters above all.I would rather have better AI and combat, instead of nifty craphics 
quote:
Compared to some other games, and certainly Daggerfall before it, Morrowind has better quests - remember watching Fargoth? All the quests were hand crafted rather than randomly generated at least.
Yeah i probably put it way too strongly.I agree. there were many intresting guests, but the outcome was most times very same.I would have liked to see more visible changes on the world or people in it.
quote:
Have you tried turning off 'use best attack'? If this is turned off then you can do different attacks based on which direction you are moving in, ala Jedi knight. This makes fighting a bit more skillful.
heh,yes naturally i did this, but still combat feels quite dull.Btw i play jedi outcast online(truly fun  , take a look at saber combat in it.Flips,combos,parrying.blocks..it has it all.I just can't understand why combat should allways be so simple in Rpgs..only gothic makes some innovation in this area..
quote:
Locational damage was actually in the game during testing, but it was removed because it was too easy to see what an NPC was wearing then take him down easily by targeting an unarmoured location.
There is limited reactions to various attacks - powerful blows offen stagger an opponent to their knees. Bow shots often knock them back etc.
Yep and instead of that they made it duller.I think that would have only made combat more intrestings, then we could have damagesystem like in DX.
quote:
Again this is now better, but still, morrowind does give you the freedom to create an uber powerful character quite easily. Its not designed to be an action game, it's designed for people who like roleplaying characters. So if you find it easy, try roleplaying a more peaceful/less skilled character.
I know, that we players have some responsibility how we play morrowind.I didn't make any uberpowerfull character for that matter, i only made a some guy who can use a sword and shield.Its not just only me. who thinks that its quite ridiculous to say, that I shouldn't play a warrior cause it would make game only unbalanced.Afterall most skills are combat based, arent they?  If this is the case benthesa has made really big design flaw.
quote:
Ok, we all agree with you on that one!
Yeap!
quote:
Fair enough. I'm glad that at least we can carry on after the main quest. I can only guess that not more changes were made because the majority of players will spend more time pre-end of main plot that after.
Kalniel
Yes i didn't say that its a bad thing that we can carry on after main guest i've just said that i would have expected to see some nifty long cutscene or big party fpr me.After all what i did for them.I saved the whole damned Morrowind...The end only left me angry as it left me surprised.That was it, nothing else?
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
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Fri Mar 28, 2003 10:13 pm |
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