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Ligi
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 39
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Hi all this is my first post here and english isnt my first language, so dont mind some errors.
I am not worried about MMRPG future and two main reasons comes to my mind:
1) For the near future there are lots of mmrpg titles coming, leading to a bigger concurrence, therefore raising the quality and variety. (Dragon Empires, EQ2, Ultima X, Middle Earth Online, World of Warcraft, Mythica, Warhammer Online, City of Heroes, Wish, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Horizons, Darkfall Online, Horizons... and so on..)
What worries me is the "sandwish sindrome" - nowadays people can hit the autorun, flag afk, and go to the kitchen make a sandwish, chances are you wont die, and if you do, its no big deal. I have the impression that mmrpgs are loosing the fear factor because the death penalties are getting lowered. Fear is a major factor in any game and is connected with adrenaline, sense of danger, immersion, roleplaying and last but not the least FUN.
Maybe because mmrpgs are trying to reach the mainstream market devs feel the need to make it less demanding and penalising. But alot is lost on the way . Do you remember 4 years ago in EQ when u were trying to buy some arrows on EC vendors and suddenly you see a Griffin? OMG I almost had a stroke, hehe . Simple things like traveling from Freeport to Everfrost were a real adventure. That shows that the feeling of danger and adrenaline moments can be achieved with simple content as long as it is right balanced.
That kind of adrenaline playing a game isnt easy to come back, mainly because we players are also diferent. So, on one hand we players arent so easy to get scared , on the other hand mmrpgs are loosing the death penalty.
Hopefully the mmrpg will stabilize on the next years and there will be playing styles for all of us, right now there is no choice for people who play this genre for 5 years and would like to be surprised and challenged. Lots of content is a must, we need to feel that we are in a "world" not in a map with some repetitive quests . The content must be so deep that not even a powergamer can see the end of it after a couple of months playing. Besides the "world", we need a "game" and thats where danger is a preponderant factor.
What I really would love is a game that could make me feel like running for my live, feel adrenaline again, feel danger and knowing that alot is in risk if I just go "sandwish". Death shouldnt be so trivial, you shouldnt be killed so often and at the same time people should fear it.
Some would say, no way you can get that feeling back as when playing EQ on the first year. I am not so sure of that , and I cant find it out if devs keep lowering the danger factor on every and each game they release.
sorry about all this babbling, but I had to take this out of my chest  |
Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:33 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
Nice post Ligi, and welcome to the boards! 
Unfortunately, I don't think that the real "fear factor" of death in MMORPG will be back for a good while. Not like the one you described anyway. The problem is that developers (and most importantly publishers) are constantly trying to broaden their horizons, and get more and more players to get in on the genre. The player-base that MMORPGs are currently trying to seduce are the casual gamers. And casual gamers do not want to play for a few hours only to be frustrated by death.
So how do you make death both penalizing and devoid of frustration? It's a very delicate issue... I don't think I have a real answer myself.  I think DAoC had a good solution: reducing your stats until you paid to recover them. Other games (especially sci-fi ones) are going the "cloning" way, where you need to pay to clone your character and its inventory so that you won't lose anything if you die, kind of a save-game feature for MMORPGs. These solutions still make you fear death a little, although there are no really crippling penalties.
I think the worst kind of death was the EQ kind, and I personally hope never to see anyone do that again. Running back to my corpse to get my stuff is not fun! AC1 had the same kind of problem where you lost your most precious item in your inventory which would remain behind on your corpse. The problem is that often times your corpse was laying down in the middle of a pack of very aggressive, and very angry beasts. And you would die repeatedly trying to get back to it... Did it make you fear death? Oh yeah! Big time! Did it make the game more fun? Erm... no, not the least bit no... not fun at all.
It's a game, you should be having fun. Fear is sometimes part of the fun, but there's a difference between fearing that big 25 foot cat with teeth as big as you that's lurking behind the next tree, and fearing to die because you run the chance of losing everything you own if you step too closely to it...
_________________
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Wed Aug 27, 2003 3:26 pm |
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vaticide
Put food in here
Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 1122
Location: One step behind a toddler bent on destruction. |
No, I'm not a broken record. No, I'm not a broken record. No, I'm not a broken record, but I must again say that I think Ultima Online had this the best. There was a great deal of fear and trespass when you were outside of town, you had to watch your back constantly not only for fear of being killed by the stray troll or whatnot but a band of murderers. (And, of course, other people will always be your most skilled opponents) Then when you died you lost all of your items unless you could return to loot them before your corpse disintigrated (or someone decided to forgoe the penalty and loot it themselves). There was, however, no stat penalty. Just a sometimes loss of items and a little time seeking a ressurrection. And just to throw in a little more fun the creature that killed you would usually loot one random item from you.
By the way, No, I'm not a broken record, I just liked how UO handled most things.
-vaticide |
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Wed Aug 27, 2003 3:47 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by vaticide
By the way, No, I'm not a broken record, I just liked how UO handled most things.
-vaticide
I don't get it though. How does spending time to find your corpse, run the chance of having all items and equipment looted from it, and even have to perhaps fight your way to it without any weapons and armor, constitute fun? I'm not attacking anyone here, I'm just trying to find out how anyone can actually remember this system fondly 
Maybe it's just me, but when that use to happen to me I wanted to cry. Again: sure it made me terrified of dying, but there was nothing fun in losing everything I spent a lot of time getting just because I sidestepped into someone's shadow by mistake!. In fact, it was too scary to die and I ended up not even desiring to go outside of towns! Death wasn't a penalty, it was a torture...
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:34 pm |
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vaticide
Put food in here
Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 1122
Location: One step behind a toddler bent on destruction. |
Its simple, losing all of your items forces you to do three things: be prepared for such an occasion with extra equipment in the bank, start over on aquiring new stuff, and try harder next time. Nothing breaks a rut like having to start over. It will of course be easier the second (plus) time because you have all of your skills intact. Half the fun is getting stuff anyway, and you are much more likely to use that new sword you found if you lose 'ol trusty-dusty. In Ultima Online the player and the avatar's skills made you who you were. Your equipment was just that: equipment. In all of the MMORPGs (excepting ATITD) I've played since then, you are defined by your equipment, and often you end up enslaved by it. (Camping, for one) Not to mention you sacrifice looking like you can coordinate an outfit for random bonuses. I call that the 'scarecrow effect'.
Corpse runs in EQ were the ones that lacked all fun. You lost experience, that was enough penalty for dying. Going to find your corpse was never all that difficult, even when underneath a dragon. It was merely a waste of time.
Back to the original post, I too remember the griffins killing everyone in EC when there was nobody above level five. It did give a good feeling of tresspass, and you couldn't stop looking over your shoulder most places in that game. We can put that as one of the few things that EQ did right. 
-vaticide |
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Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:33 pm |
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Ligi
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 39
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Very good points. Yes there is a very thin line between dangerously fun and dangerously painfull. I really cant talk about Ultima, (my mmrpg experience is based on EQ, A Tale in the Desert, Earth & Beyond, DAoC and SWG) but EQ did some things right on that department like creating zones with balance and personality.
For example North Ro, it had a charismatic music, very apropriate to desert, the constant trains and those giants walking around really made that zone a blast.
Now you ask me , how can a zone packed with newbies training spectres like hell and sandgiants that can kill you in 2 secs be fun? Its all about balance, North Ro could be a pain yes but also it could be very rewarding if people didntnt play carelessly, trains could be avoid and sandgiants too, it was just a matter of being on your toes.
Too bad not all zones had a proper music going with the landscape has in North Ro, I think they really hit the nail on that one. SWG really amazed me on the bad sense because I was hopping much more from Lucas Arts music wise.
I dont know why I am talking about music LOL, I am hijacking my first post
Yes corpse run was too painfull, too bad they didnt make a zone like PoT where people could travel faster and therefore reducing the CR time.
Have you read about Darkfall? Seems like a game where the danger factor is a constant presence, lets hope its fun too.. Maybe I am wrong but looks like Darkfall will atempt to recover some PvP characteristics from the UO early days.
About A Tale in the Desert its a great and original MMRPG, brought new concepts to the genre and I really had a great time playing it, but, as someone said on this thread, I lacked the need to watch behind my shoulder. |
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Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:10 am |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Ligi
I really cant talk about Ultima, (my mmrpg experience is based on EQ, A Tale in the Desert, Earth & Beyond, DAoC and SWG) but EQ did some things right on that department like creating zones with balance and personality.
I'm not disputing that, or the fact that some games out there made death a constant threat. A real one, mind you. I'm arguing that there's a difference between a threat, and a frustrating game element. Death should be threatening, but there should be better ways to go about penalizing players.
For instance, what if EQ would have had the same death system, but then required you to go to specific temples outside cities, in the wild, to recover your loot? You could be given a timer that would give you enough time to fetch your corpse at the temple before other people would have the rights to your items, which would then be distributed among NPC vendors there for anyone to buy (including yourself!). Just a quick thought, but it would make things much less frustrating... There has to be better solutions to make things challenging without being too frustrating...
quote:
Originally posted by Ligi
I dont know why I am talking about music LOL, I am hijacking my first post
Hey, you started the thread, if you highjack it yourself it's your prerogative! At least it's not someone else who does it for you.
quote:
Originally posted by Ligi
Seems like a game where the danger factor is a constant presence, lets hope its fun too.. Maybe I am wrong but looks like Darkfall will atempt to recover some PvP characteristics from the UO early days.
Hey, I'm all for watching your back and feeling danger. No argument there. The problem isn't really to make you fear the beasts you encounter. The problem lies within the death penalty, or the lack of it. Take E&B for instance, which had one of the worst cases of inconsequential death that I have personally seen (when I played it anyway). It was dangerous to travel to the more aggressive sectors, and you had reason to fear the pirates flying around which could kill you with a couple of shots. But you always felt kind of gung-ho about exploring because the only consequence to death was a tow back to the nearest station. There was no real frustration there, only disapointment because you had to come all the way back to where you were.
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:54 pm |
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Ligi
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 39
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"But you always felt kind of gung-ho about exploring because the only consequence to death was a tow back to the nearest station. There was no real frustration there, only disapointment because you had to come all the way back to where you were."
I also felt that way playing E&B.
Seems we talking about the razors edge here:
Danger - minimum frustation - FUN
Danger - frustation - Not fun
Not so dangerous - less frustation - Not so fun
No danger at all - no frustation - No fun |
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Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:30 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
I absolutely HATE corpse runs. |
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Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:58 pm |
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Kiff
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Indiana |
I hated corpse runs in EQ, because in EQ you had this uber equipment that you HAD to get back. In UO, I didn't mind, because it was just ordinary equipment (unless I had the War Axe of Vanquishing). UO made me think about every trip. "--Can't take too many regents. Do I wanna take my best katana or not? Did I leave all my gold at the bank?" Every trip to the dungeon was an adventure in it's self, because I knew I was going to die, if I didn't, great!! The best time ever. If I did die (most of the time) oh well I gained a couple skill points, and I was low on regents anyway. Or if I saw a couple red names appear in the dungeon I was in...my heart lept to my throut, my hand fumbled around 6 incorrect keys before finding my teleport hotkey. Man that was fun and I only really disliked dieing when I was stupid enough to be carring 600 regents and my best weapons on me. The question is then Why would I ever carry my best weapon or armor? Answer-It's like owning a Ferrari, do you have this ultimate car for looks or for it's superior preforming? It's up to you to drive or not. |
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Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:20 pm |
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vaticide
Put food in here
Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 1122
Location: One step behind a toddler bent on destruction. |
quote:
Originally posted by Kiff
I hated corpse runs in EQ, because in EQ you had this uber equipment that you HAD to get back. In UO, I didn't mind, because it was just ordinary equipment (unless I had the War Axe of Vanquishing). UO made me think about every trip. "--Can't take too many regents. Do I wanna take my best katana or not? Did I leave all my gold at the bank?" Every trip to the dungeon was an adventure in it's self, because I knew I was going to die, if I didn't, great!! The best time ever. If I did die (most of the time) oh well I gained a couple skill points, and I was low on regents anyway. Or if I saw a couple red names appear in the dungeon I was in...my heart lept to my throut, my hand fumbled around 6 incorrect keys before finding my teleport hotkey. Man that was fun and I only really disliked dieing when I was stupid enough to be carring 600 regents and my best weapons on me. The question is then Why would I ever carry my best weapon or armor? Answer-It's like owning a Ferrari, do you have this ultimate car for looks or for it's superior preforming? It's up to you to drive or not.
Exactly my feeling! Well put.
-vaticide |
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Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:09 pm |
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Kabduhl
City Guard
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 127
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The real problem comes down to how focussed the game is on equipment ...
Some people love the equipment hunting mentality of EQ. It adds a new dimension to character building, you build stats, skills, levels, and equipment with equipment being the one variable that players have absolute freedom in putting together. Personally that aspect of EQ is what kills the game for me, the equipment is too overpowerd and characters are too underpowered. I would strongly prefer the focus of the game to be on player skill, player levels, character building rather than on depending upon equipment. But to each their own, for some this aspect is absolutely the most fun part of EQ and I can't begrudge them their opinion. It just isn't my style of play. |
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Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:40 pm |
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RedTiger
Village Leader
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 93
Location: Center of Chaos |
There has to be a balance. I play these games to develop strong characters. Having cool equipment is a big part of the fantasy/adventure aspects of RPGs that I totally love, but not at the cost of losing focus on the development of a characters skills. I totally agree with you about how much attention equipment gets. I think what they've got planned for games like UXO with skill/virtue based equipment is an interesting take on the system. Apparently you can customize your equipment based on the levels of a particular skill or virtue. Still fuzz on the details but it sounds good. |
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Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:08 pm |
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Kiff
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Indiana |
Shadowbane has it a different way too...you lose whats in your inventory, and not what you have equipped. So playing as a Scout, I keep a good bow and two good swords on me. I don't wanna lose either of those but can only equip the bow or the two swords. What do I do? I like it when I have to stragitize. DAoC didn't do that, you die in that game, oh well.
In reguards to what Kabduhl said, I love the aspect of the stats on weapons and armor, I like to see what has this and what can do that. But I don't like it when it becomes the focus of play or when it's all the weapon and armor that is winning battles and not the person. UXO you mentioned will have the ability to have these uber weapons, but will balance that by making it non-sandwich combat. Might, hopefully, work. |
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Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:04 pm |
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RedTiger
Village Leader
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 93
Location: Center of Chaos |
I've heard more about the combat system now and it's definitely going to be dynamic. I think the uber weapons probably won't be THAT uber if the game is basing them on character skill levels. Having items that depend on the character stats is a good road to follow IMHO. |
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Fri Sep 05, 2003 3:43 pm |
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