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| Is Gothic Sexist? |
| Yes |
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25% |
[ 6 ] |
| No |
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75% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 24 |
ghola
City Guard
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 146
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But the only dissapointing thing is that I can't play as a women character.
You can, but the quests for female players are different (Chapter 1: Scrub the floor; Chapter 2: The Bathing Ritual... etc.).  |
Thu Oct 31, 2002 10:06 am |
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DzD
Unknown
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 7140
Location: Sweden |
quote:
Originally posted by Anfisa
I don't think that Gothic is sexist. And I'm fond of seeing so many men around me  But the only dissapointing thing is that I can't play as a women character. It would be more comfortable for me because if I've played as a women character I can better identify it with myself. So I decided to become a mage because mages usually wear skirts and robes and my character looks like a woman 
Btw, welcome to this little board. 
_________________
There once was a youngster, DzD
Whose avatars numbered infinity
But I must admit
His latest, a hit
Cuz the Little One's a mystery to me
Written by - dteowner |
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Thu Oct 31, 2002 12:34 pm |
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Srikandi
Noble Knight
Joined: 04 Dec 2001
Posts: 222
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Gothic is by far the worst RPG in this respect I've ever played. It's appalling.
It's not so much that the women are portrayed as sex objects and exploited. It's the fact that they have no character and no voice. The "diggers" are exploited too, but they're allowed to whine about it -- and they do. They're treated by the game as human. The women aren't. Gothic has with some reason a reputation for having NPCs that are more individual and "alive" than in most other games, but it completely falls down in this area.
Just to be clear: this isn't a complaint that the "game world" is sexist -- it surely is, but that's a problem at a different level. The complaint is that the developers made a profoundly sexist decision to include female NPCs without giving them any dialog or any role in the story. Basically they're animated furniture (or more accurately, inflatable dolls). Far better to have left them out altogether.
A note about the "realism" argument, and the issue of sexism in the game world: while in many cultures men wield most of the "official" power, in all cultures women have spheres and domains where they're more powerful than men. This was true in midieval times as well as now. The situation as portrayed in Gothic is not simply one where women don't have equal political and economic rights; rather, what we see in the game is universal female sex slavery. This has occurred certainly at particular times and places -- WWII "comfort women" come to mind -- but it doesn't (and couldn't) characterize any stable culture in a more general sense.
Could something like that happen in a prison colony? Possibly, but I think in the real world at least a few women would have eventually found other roles for themselves. And even if not, they would have complained loudly about their situation to a sympathetic visiting adventurer, like all the men in the game do.
Women DO play RPGs -- in large and increasing numbers, in fact -- and unless Piranha Bytes is deliberately trying to limit its market, Gothic II had better show a marked improvement here. |
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Sat Dec 07, 2002 12:36 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Oh, they definitely - thankfully! - did improve. Try to rob a house with a female inhabitant in Gothic II. Women in GII are armed, talk just like the guys (meaning, you can talk to them quite normally), and there's a female guild leader, too.
_________________
Jaz |
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Sat Dec 07, 2002 1:08 pm |
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Srikandi
Noble Knight
Joined: 04 Dec 2001
Posts: 222
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Good -- glad to hear it. Means I can play what I'm sure will be an excellent game without feeling guilty about supporting the company. I've just been doing a quick re-playthrough of GI, since I was having a hard time remembering the people and places that we're told return in GII. Last time I joined the Sect Camp, but this time I'm in the Old Camp, so I've been painfully reminded of the gender problem.
Definitely enjoying the combat... I'd forgotten how great the enemy behavior is. Not just eye-candy, real gameplay consequences. |
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Sat Dec 07, 2002 9:15 pm |
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Freakie
The Noble Demon
Joined: 10 Mar 2002
Posts: 1008
Location: Korhinis, Upper Quarters. |
Yes I think it's sexist, but many games are like Castle Wolfenstein.
But in the Gothic 2 demo there are female civilians, thats better 
_________________
Gothic Credits
Gothic II Credits |
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Sat Dec 07, 2002 9:22 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
lol @ "painfully reminded"
I like playing female chars like in NWN and when I play Deathmatch Ill use a female skin sometimes because they just look cooler (look for FoamingSquirrel), but to say you feel "guilty" because youre playing a game thats not politically correct is hilarious! I dont remember a male protagonist in Tomb Raider I could play, and I got along just fine without being sad at all! ='.'=
BTW Srkrandi- Hello, They are in like a prison camp here, they dont care much for what servant women feel like, lol. These arent exactly "caring and sharing" type of Oprah viewers. Personally i like it, i wish there was a Servant Whipping Post in the middle of the camp, would be entertaining
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Sun Dec 08, 2002 1:46 am |
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Kayla
High Emperor
Joined: 26 Nov 2002
Posts: 2114
Location: Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by Pinnen
I will not even comment the stupidity in the women-statement. It´s about as smart to say
"Hey, you know Adolf Hitler was a pretty nice guy after all. At least he did something about the overpopulation!"
Get a grip, folks. If you have more were that came from, like "Why isn´t there a national holiday of cross-burning?" please keep it to yourselfs. Or rather, don´t keep it at all.
@ Pinnen. I agree with your example statement. Evil deeds are remembered, you can't forgive Hitler because he did some pretty watercolours or Sadam Hussein because he's written 3 romance novels (I kidd you not) 
Lord of the Rings is my favorite book, but the only female character with any fighting ability is Eowyn, and she doesn't want to live anymore- bad reflection on females if it were real life, but it is a fantasy world. No one ever said Tolkien was sexist.
@ Paul9999. Not all women are whores the same as not all men are bastards. There are some horrible women and some horrible men, but please don't put all of us in the one basket. 
I enjoy playing female characters, but I'm not going to limit myself from playing a good game just because I can't be a female. Planescape:Torment only had the option of being a male, but it waas one of, if not the best game I have every played.
I agree the game is based in a medieval world, and women did not have that much of a role to play in life- they were either servants or prostitutes.
@ xSamhainx. Tombraider is a good example of a female main character with no choice of being a male. And I find Tombraider more sexist due to her... um... proportions (if I game ever could be sexist).
Moral of the story, Gothic is not sexist, it is a fantasy world and should be played and enjoyed without trying to read sexist overtones into the developers decison to only have a male lead character.
_________________
Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.
Robert A. Heinlein |
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Sun Dec 08, 2002 2:09 am |
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Srikandi
Noble Knight
Joined: 04 Dec 2001
Posts: 222
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You miss my point, Sam. I don't care what gender the player character is. What I don't like is the fact that the female NPCs have no dialog, unlike every other NPC in the game, including the most miserable diggers and rice slaves. As you point out these women are supposed to be convicts -- all the more reason they should be portrayed as tough, resourceful, loudmouthed and crude instead of as silent props. A game that is so devoted to "realism" that it shows a man pissing should be realistic enough to show a woman talking.
I think it's important because I'm a dedicated gamer. Small companies like PB that produce original, high-quality products are always under competitive pressure and they will fail if they don't reach a sufficiently wide audience. Good games don't have to be "feminist" to attract women players, but it's better if they aren't overtly misogynistic. More inclusive games mean more players, more revenue, and more good games for everybody.
By the way, where did this idea that women in the Middle Ages were all "servants or prostitutes" come from? Think how unlikely that is. There were both women and men in every social class, from royalty down. There were queens, there were noblewomen, there were craftswomen. All those men had sisters, wives, mothers and daughters, for heaven's sake; do you think they were all servants and prostitutes? |
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Sun Dec 08, 2002 2:30 am |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Well, youre totally wrong. The women in the colony arent convicts, they are currency and slaves. The men are the convicts, the women arent, its that simple. If they were loudmouthed they would prolly be killed. Thats just the way it is in this game, and I have no problem with that because I know the diffrence between real and make-believe.
People that ascribe legitimate concern and angst to trivial subjects such as "NPC civil rights issues" do nothing but trivialize true civil rights violations and concerns. No real women were enslaved in the making of this game, I assure you that. I got news for you, the world is a rough place for those who cannot take things like this for what they are- make believe. If you cant handle everything not being politically correct at all places, at all times, you are in for alot of pain and suffering over the course of your life.
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Sun Dec 08, 2002 4:05 am |
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DzD
Unknown
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 7140
Location: Sweden |
quote:
Originally posted by Kayla
...and she doesn't want to live anymore- bad reflection on females if it were real life...
Well actually, a research said that 40% - 50% of the girls in school have had thought about suicide more then once. 30% of the boys had thought about suicide.
_________________
There once was a youngster, DzD
Whose avatars numbered infinity
But I must admit
His latest, a hit
Cuz the Little One's a mystery to me
Written by - dteowner |
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Sun Dec 08, 2002 4:46 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
xSamhainx, let go of the pro-far-right bash-anything-that-looks-PC for a minute. Of course NPCs are make-believe and don't need their rights championed and yes, the woman are slaves. But this isn't what Srikandi is saying.
As much as I loved Gothic, the female NPCs were trite and the game would have been that tiny bit better if they'd either left them out or made them real NPCs. |
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Sun Dec 08, 2002 5:08 am |
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Kayla
High Emperor
Joined: 26 Nov 2002
Posts: 2114
Location: Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by Srikandi
By the way, where did this idea that women in the Middle Ages were all "servants or prostitutes" come from? Think how unlikely that is. There were both women and men in every social class, from royalty down. There were queens, there were noblewomen, there were craftswomen. All those men had sisters, wives, mothers and daughters, for heaven's sake; do you think they were all servants and prostitutes?
Women were second class citizens, and yes, females were of noble births but their marriages were organised for politcal or financial gain- still making them a commodity. Males dominated the financial sector, government and most women did not have jobs, they merely tended to their husbands and their children. It was very rare for a woman to have gainful employment and be self sufficient.
The game probably would have been better if they'd just left the females out, or at least had them say something likee "don't hit me, I am merely fanning my master", or "don't hit me, I am but a slave woman trying to bathe"
_________________
Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.
Robert A. Heinlein |
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Sun Dec 08, 2002 5:35 am |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Dhruin, she's pissed because the female NPCs are a bunch of mute, submissive slaves, its simple as that. Im saying that's the kind of silly "outrage" that *creates* "pro-far-right bash-anything-that-looks-PC" people like me that get jaded from people "crying wolf" over dumb nuances like this. So what, the women are groveling slaves. Nobody is harmed by this. Youre going to have something against the company that made the game for this? It starts to look downright petty, let it roll off your back there are way worse inequalities to get steamed about. Women are supposedly tough and equal to men, but *some* sure cant take anything but positive, noble, witty, important stereotypes in any kind of media or they have a fit. How many NPC slave wenches are suffering in silent servitude in the gaming world? How many are powerful Warriors? So once and awhile youll see something like this, its not some kind of crime for a woman character to be a groveling slave. Not enough to be "painfully reminded", give me a break. If this brings you pain, you are pretty thin-skinned, you definitely aint no GI JANE. Hey, at least in the next one you could get confronted by one, right?
This is my job anyway! I am the tourniquet
Im cracking up here, sometimes this is so fun ='.'=
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Sun Dec 08, 2002 8:13 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
"pro-far-right bash-anything-that-looks-PC"
Got a bit carried away there, didn't I? Sorry. Still, if there's a political fight to be had you'll be there on the right.
Nevertheless, whilst I agree it ranks second-last in the list of the world's injustices, I still think they could utilised them better or left them out. |
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Sun Dec 08, 2002 9:02 am |
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