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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
A lot of people are disappointed that you can't click up a perfect module straight out of the box with no background in computer programming at all. A lot.
But seriously though. Whose fault is that? People with their utterly unrelistic expectations or the tools? Do people expect to make perfect 3D movies in 3Dstudio straight out of the box?
I don't understand why people would think NWN is any different.
But you're right. I forgot to have a prescribed 5 minute pause before posting. Those damn pauses... get you every time... 
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Wed Jul 10, 2002 6:09 pm |
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Yog Sothoth
The All in One
Joined: 01 May 2002
Posts: 1086
Location: Between Space and Time |
quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
Whose fault is that? People with their utterly unrelistic expectations or the tools? Do people expect to make perfect 3D movies in 3Dstudio straight out of the box?
It's because NWN is sold as a game and 3DS is sold as a professional program... and a game have to be immidiat... i think that is the main point...
IMO
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Wed Jul 10, 2002 6:27 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
I guess that's it. People expect the toolset to be like the game. In other words they expect to follow a small tutorial (no more than 10 minutes) and by then know everything there is to know about everything in the toolset... Well, That's not right.
Although it's fairly easy to whip up a module with random encounters that will need to be DM'ed without having to create extensive dialogues or pre set encounters.
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Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:26 pm |
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Fionn2
Guest
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Actually you are totally wrong about me researching games. I research almost every game I buy. Morrowind, to AVP2, to Unreal Tournament 2003 to even WarCraft 3. Everyone in the game market had this pegged as the best RPG ever but it really was not even close and was a dissapointment.
Everywhere you read..oh the graphics are awe inspiring. Well that was BS.
It has a great Multiplayer program. That was also crap.
The only thing the game has going for it is the DM quality to the game. But the world builder is not anything new and does not inspire me. Morrowind had a better program and world builder. It just needed more diffrent types of enemies none humanoid in my opinion. But the graphics in Morrowind were very much an improvement in the market of RPGs where NWN was not.
You say how NWN has things that are supposed to pop out of thin air. Well for the many years they worked on this game, and the company behind it, you should not have to worry about things being popped out of thin air. It should already be created. This popping out of thin air thing gave me a laugh. If you buy a game that has so much hype behind it, it should fulfill its functions. But then again its a game that was a dissapointment and a let down. Sorry to say it but it was. I got more satisfaction playing Wizards of the Coast Magic the Gathering Card game. Their is more RPG in that then in this game. And Yes I also think the Multiplayer should be a HUGE part of this game making it a RPG of this nature but then again it failed here too.
What good is a DM if it has no good Multiplayer functions to support it? Sounds easier just to download Mods like other games of its nature. Anyways im not going to complain at you for my own opinion of the game. I just think the game lacks in "so many" areas that i was dissapointed from the game so I was trying to find out what this hype was about.
I just recently beat Warcraft 3 after playing for a few days, and It actually surprised me with how much fun it was to play the game. I found it much more fulfilling than NWNs.
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 2:16 am |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Fionn2
If you buy a game that has so much hype behind it, it should fulfill its functions.
Seriously though, which function did it fail to fulfill?
Graphics? Well, graphics are the best of its competition, on paper. Now whether you like them or not has nothing to do with whether the game delivered the graphical features. It's a matter of opinion. Personally, I never argue how these games look because I don't get awe struck by any of it (doom3 may change that). To be honest with you, this game can be made in wireframe graphics and it would be just fine as far as I'm concerned. (I'm only telling you this to show you how it's all a matter of opinion and has no bearing on the technical achievement of the product.)
Multiplayer? You complain of bad people to play with and laggy private servers. I'm sorry, but I fail to see how this has anything to do with the game. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), they cannot package your ideal multiplayer buddies in a box ("just add water and stir well"), yet. I don't think BioWare ever made any claims about what sorts of people are going to play this game. When it comes to private connections, again, you cannot hold it against the game that you seem to be lagging when connecting to other people's machines over the internet. Unless you have a local LAN, and in such an environment there is something wrong with the game networking, I don't see how you can claim it to be the game's fault.
Anyways, I don't really wanna be all that argumentative. Passion got better of me once before and I don't wanna risk it happening again. In my mind, what you have is a clear case of bad expectations. Kindda like those people that are already giving Star Wars: Galaxies 5 star reviews on amazon.com claiming that this is the best game ever made. I'd like to see how long their bubbles last. Don't get me wrong here. I'm not a fanboy. God knows there are some things about NWN that drive me up the wall, and chances are I won't finish the game like I haven't finished the BG games. But I have fun playing for a while and that's what it's about. When it stops being fun, I stop playing. I also try not to have too great expectations about games. Which seems to be the latest marketing craze.
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:16 am |
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Nazgul
Head Merchant
Joined: 02 May 2002
Posts: 56
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I never expect too much out of games i buy, that way i dont feel bad aobut buying it if it isnt the greatest. But NWN is a great game, in my opinion. The graphics are great. They are very similar to Dungeonn Siege's graphics. And you say the single player part wasnt great. Well, if you did research like you said, you would have learned that the single player was made as a secondary feature. The multiplayer and DM funtions are what this game was primarily made for. You could always try playing the multiplayer with some friends? Thats what PnP was, playing a nice game with some friends, not random people you pick up off the street.
quote:
If you buy a game that has so much hype behind it, it should fulfill its functions.
The hype is all the fans waiting the game expecting way to much. It is just what they think would make the best game. Dont beleive too much of the hype.
I dont think the game is too linear. A game must draw a line somewhere. Morrowind didnt draw a line, anywhere. Thats where i think the game failed. But NWN has a fine storyline, with plenty of sidequests. Its linear enough to make sure you continue along the story. Thats what i think an RPG is. You controling a character thru a story, not thru a bunch of random quests. If you dont like it, then play a different game.
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:49 am |
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Fionn
Village Dweller
Joined: 09 Jul 2002
Posts: 16
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Well whats the point of making it on the computer and for gamers if its not graphical in nature? Thats the point graphics wise.
Star Wars Galaxies fulfills the RPG in this. Graphically Star Wars Galaxies looks really good. As does EQ2 and Doom3. Course Doom 3 will set the standards next year 2003. I dont think anything will compete with it graphical wise. And I expect it to be quite a good game considering the designers are going out of their way to scare the gamer playing. Until Unreal Tournament 2003 comes out the best FPS is AVP2 in my honest opinion. AVP2 was designed very well, and fulfills its purpose in most aspects. Cept for their damn last patch making rounds of Sniper Rifle from 30 to 10 which sucks!!! DAMN YOU SIERRA PATCH BOYS! DAMN YOU TO SCHOOL!
Basically my whole argument from a nonfanboy of NWNs is.."what is the freaking deal? The game is just normal in almost every aspect. Nothing shoots out at you to say..OMG this game is the best." I guess I was surprised how regular the game was with everyone quoting the Bible on it. |
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:55 am |
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Fionn
Village Dweller
Joined: 09 Jul 2002
Posts: 16
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Nazgul, on your point about Morrowind. I think you are totally wrong. If you are going to play an RPG, then non-linear is the way to go. Morrowind and all the Elder Scrolls had one thing that no Bioware ever could grasp was the ability to do what you wanted. All the Balders Gate, all the Ice Wind Dale..ect ect..all follow a path..so does NWN with little side quests.
NWN's path just happens to be taking one of 4 paths before you do it again. 4 distrticts in NWN, then 4 in the next city, then 4 forests in the next..then 4 runes you have to get..it all is the same thing over and over again. If you never finished the game you would never figure it out until you get close.
Morrowind, Just like Everquest, just like Camelot and MMORPGs which owns these games on a non-linear scale are what RPGs should have on a computer gaming scale. Now Pen-paper type games are diffrent cause you set the standards on how your world is made. But the role playing involved in Games like Morrowind, or Evercrack is that you are not limited except by the borders of the games world. You can go whereever you want and follow any path you choose. 12 bucks a month is well worth that adventure if you so choose.
Now you mention it needs a story. Well Morrowind actually had it right from the beginning. If you played thru, you could beat the game easily just doing its main theme. But even the designers wanted you to go explore. Exploring and questing leads to better weapons and artifacts and just beauty what the game has in store for you. Everquest was bad-arse in a lot of places that not many could see because they were not high enough level. I never got to see the End dragon in EQ course doubt id last one second either considering it could wipe the floor against 70 online players all trying to kill it in a massive campaign.
And RPG does not need to have one story, it does not really need an end.
BTW, keep the
"If you dont like it, then play a different game."
quote to yourself. I don't need to hear the 13 year old banter when im trying to find out what the hype is on a certain game. I already said I thought the game was decent in my first post I just said I did not see what the hype was about. |
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 6:12 am |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by Fionn
Basically my whole argument from a nonfanboy of NWNs is.."what is the freaking deal? The game is just normal in almost every aspect. Nothing shoots out at you to say..OMG this game is the best." I guess I was surprised how regular the game was with everyone quoting the Bible on it.
NVNs is a multi-player game with a relatively unexciting 50-hour tutorial (Single player). And the multi-player goodness can only be reached if you put a substantial effort into finding a good role-playing group online, and make a commitment to play with each other consistently. The awe-inspiring things that people like about the game hasn't happened yet; there hasn't been enough time for people to make up really good mods, and for a substantial network of really serious role-players to form.
The problem with the game is that I don't think that too many people are serious role-players for whom the game is designed in truth.
Imagine a scenario in which you and your party are walking along and meet a hostile band of rogues that would kick your butt. In a normal RPG, you would probably only have a couple of options illustrated by a couple of dialog options (fight, give them your money, etc.). With multiplayer NVN, you could tell the rogues that you know of a great score in town, and that you'd give them all the info they would need to rob it (a lie of course). Or you could cast an illusion of mounted knights about to patrol through the area, making the rogues flee. The possibilities are endless when you have a DM that is capable of controlling the situation, and when he has the tools to do it.
That is the point of NVN, and that is where the awe is... Too bad most people are still not there (and the majority of them never will be).
- Wind |
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 12:33 pm |
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Erendil
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 Jul 2002
Posts: 24
Location: Milan, Italy |
Well, IMHO Neverwinter Nights is a good game.
The single player is ugly, because it doesn't leave you space to roleplay your character and it's TOO much combat oriented. Great dialogues, but they don't lead you anywhere... You'll always end in the strict storyline.
But nwn is a multyplayer game, and there it shows its best features: you can create any kind of module and with a good dm it works fine.
I tink there are two main problems for nwn multyplayer:
the first is the presence of stupid gamers (imported from Diablo & co.) that cheat and they never roleplay... Well it's easy to solve this one because you can find a group of players who share your feelings about rpgs. IF you find them... And IF they are online when you are. If they're not, prepare for a NWN deathmatch.
The second (and most important) problem is the Dungeon Master. If you want to play a good campaign you MUST find a Dm that is both a good programmer and a good roleplayer, otherwise you have to relay on other module that might not be what you wanted... A good dungeon master should possess all the npc, not use the dialouges... He would even waste less time! 
So, nwn is a good game, but D&d pen and paper is still better... and easier. |
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 1:02 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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The online scene will be better in one month... when all the 'Diablo' types are bored stupid with the game and have wandered off to greener pastures to slay and play another game. Then I suspect the roleplayers will be left (since with a munchy DM you can go to level 1 to 20 in about an hour... even the most die hard diablo players will get bored with having max level characters. They'll swear and curse and whine about the level cap, declare the game sucks, and move on.).
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:44 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Fionn
Well whats the point of making it on the computer and for gamers if its not graphical in nature? Thats the point graphics wise.
When the first (officially) computer game was made, they didn't have graphics. All they had was line printers (no monitors). And the first graphical game was not made on the computer (pong, on an oscilloscope). But enough with history lessons. All I said was that the quality of graphics that you talk about is subjective. If it doesn't please you, it's not the game's fault, as on paper, it has the most and the best to date.
quote:
Originally posted by Fionn
Star Wars Galaxies fulfills the RPG in this. Graphically Star Wars Galaxies looks really good.
Have you played it? If not, then how do you know this? You read some marketing mumbo-jumbo and have seen few "screenshots." Let me guess, one month after it is released, you'll be posting on some SWG forum saying how you don't see what's the big deal...
quote:
Originally posted by Fionn
I don't need to hear the 13 year old banter when im trying to find out what the hype is on a certain game. I already said I thought the game was decent in my first post I just said I did not see what the hype was about.
We keep trying to tell you and you keep refusing to listen.
quote:
Originally posted by Fionn
NWN's path just happens to be taking one of 4 paths before you do it again. 4 distrticts in NWN, then 4 in the next city, then 4 forests in the next..then 4 runes you have to get..it all is the same thing over and over again. If you never finished the game you would never figure it out until you get close.
This is NOT NWN. This is the single player module that they gave you as an add-on. A convenience. A way to learn the rules of 3e. As a way to try out different character types. NWN is a tool for creating games. For creating computer games that have the most resemblance to PnP, ever. That is what NWN is. And until you experience that, properly, you can't really criticize it.
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:15 pm |
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Fionn
Village Dweller
Joined: 09 Jul 2002
Posts: 16
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| Well basically just go out and say it |
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Basically just go out and say its a DM client based game. The program to find mulitplayer games is horrid. Unless you "know and play with the same group of people", the games multiplayer is very badly done. The game is missing 2 out of 3 areas that are important. Gamespot even mentions in its own review the multiplayer on NWN sucks. The only good part of the game is its DM abilites but then you have to play with the same friends.
MoonDragon. I do listen. You just are not listening to me. BTW, you ever go to E3? You ever actually play the games or watch them in person before the game is out? If not then don't comment. Star Wars Galaxies is looking very well done not to mention its Expansion after its release to include space and fighter areas to the game. The game is including the latest graphics, Which NWN does not have and should be a very good MMORPG to date. Hopefully Brad McQauid, the original designer of Everquest will be making even a better company with his new company he has established. Think he just announce joining Microsofts gaming company to work on his next title.
Like I said, if I like a game that I want to play I will look further into it before I buy it. NWN was an exception. I did not think it would be as great as people made it out to be from the beginning and I'm glad to find out I was right and it sounds like from other people that the game was kind of a let down in a lot of areas as well.
The Game might have a great DM client, but if thats what RPGs need to have fun well then they have their game I guess. Im just looking for something with a good story, good single player, a great Multiplayer program, which I think Blizzard did a really good job on they just had crappy Compaq servers to run the game with all the damn Koreans on at Midnight! I think games should have DM clients like people want. I know its quite new to the genre so all the ol D&D people will enjoy the new abilities. I just think the game lacks in a lot of areas and I dont see the hype in it. Thats my own opinion, and many others might have their own. Not here to say the game sucks. I think it was good to a point. Single player did not suck badly. Was amusing to a point, it just got dull after a while. |
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:57 pm |
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The Hurricane
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 299
Location: The Sword Coast |
 Geez people, the single player campaign is NOT that bad.
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Fri Jul 12, 2002 3:26 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
quote:
Originally posted by The Hurricane
Geez people, the single player campaign is NOT that bad.
Ya it's NOT that bad. But also not good enough - as Fionn said "it just got dull after a while," (from individual point of views anyway).
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Fri Jul 12, 2002 3:42 am |
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