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Enderandrew
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 111
Location: Omaha, NE |
| Side Quest: Defining the Evolving Genre |
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<P>Dhruin has been running these great little editorial asides called Side Quests, and I thought I would jump in and offer my two pence. In his last article, he talked about stats and their importance to the genre.<BR><BR>On occasion, and I’m sure it has happened to you before, you’ve had to explain to someone what a role-playing game is, especially if you like to dress up like vampires in the park. When referring to RPGs of any type (pen and paper, live action role-play, computer RPGs, and console RPGs) I simply the concept as make-believe with rules.<BR><BR>One could contend that a RPG is defined by character development, but without quantifiable stats, how would we measure such development? Some suggest a story is necessary to be a RPG, but that would disqualify classic dungeon romps and rouge-likes. Others offer up stepping into the role of another as the primary means of being classified as an RPG. Well playing Splinter Cell not only offers a deep story, but allows me to step in the shoes of Sam Fisher.</P>
<P>Time and time again I fall back to the notion that the only real definition of the entire genre is stat-based gameplay. Sitting around a table and role-playing without dice or rules is really no different than simply playing make believe. LARP without stats and rules is really no different than improvisational theatre. And a cRPG without stat-based gameplay just doesn’t make the cut.</P>
<P>I'd like to reuse <A href="http://www.tgr.com/weblog/archives/000417.html" target=_blank>Peter Berger's quote from the previous article</A>: <BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><i>The future of the CRPG as a genre depends on those pushing past the "show the user a spreadsheet full of numbers that slowly gets bigger over time" model of interaction. The best possible case is probably the disappearance of the genre as a separate recognized class (except among retrogaming fans), and for its best attributes to simply be absorbed by mainstream games, leaving the drudgery, such as inventory management, behind.</i></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>This raises a question, which now divides my definition of stat-based gameplay into two groups. Does having character progression alone make a game a cRPG, or does the primary gameplay mechanic have to be driven by stats?</P>
<P>Character progression in and of itself opens up the genre to real loose definitions. In the Zelda titles, you gain new equipment which has varying degrees of power, new armor and heart containers which increase your maximum health. Numbers do not scroll across the screen, and some could argue Zelda has RPG-elements, but stats do not affect the main gameplay elements. Your ability to swing a sword is based solely on arcade reflexes. I personally would not classify Zelda as an RPG, nor does Nintendo.</P>
<P>If a game has stat-based gameplay, then the RPG distinction is clear. I have to see a game where the main gameplay mechanic was stat-driven and the game was not classified as an RPG. In classic RPGs, dice were rolled behind the scenes and that controlled our success and failure. There is a comfort mechanism in knowing that your build of the character, and thus strategy was ultimately more important than reflexes when playing the game.</P>
<P>There are a few games that do really bend the barriers between RPG and non-RPG such as Deus Ex. Stats do impact your ability to shoot, but are not the sole mechanic driving gameplay. The upcoming Elder Scolls IV: Oblivion follows a system where you have a Blade skill, but your ability to hit is actually completely reflex-driven. I can only imagine the Blade skill governs damage. Stats affect the gameplay mechanic, but do not solely drive them. If Oblivion is seen as a clear RPG, then why is Deus Ex not?</P>
<P>As more and more action and FPS titles start to implement RPG-elements, we see more and more RPG houses actually simplifying cRPGs at the same time. I think that Peter is right that the two will blend, and that the cRPG genre might start getting thinner. However, I do not believe this has to be case.</P>
<P>Peter’s quote equates character progression to reading a spreadsheet. Apparently he doesn’t feel it is very fun. Given the mass appeal and popularity of level-grinding in various MMO’s, I don’t think that stat-based character progression should be so easily discounted. On paper it may sound silly or stupid, but how many times over the years have you delayed putting down the mouse or controller until you gained one more level?</P>
<P>He also calls inventory management a drudgery. I wonder if RPGs are really his thing. I don’t mind if developers make games that don’t cater to me, but I don’t understand why RPGs should stop catering to RPG fans. As titles like inXile’s new Bard’s Tale have completely eliminated the inventory system entirely, I think they have only served to alienate the RPG audience who enjoyed the previous titles in the franchise. Some may see such management as drudgery, and others see such mechanics as an opportunity to flex mental-muscles and apply strategy to better one’s position within the game. While the mechanic of swinging a sword to squash a monster may be repetitive, each new swing might offer up a new reward in the goody it drops. Swapping and collecting each of these pieces of gear may seem like a chore, but to others it is a challenge in and of itself that provides its own entertainment and replay value.</P>
<P>Though it seems developers more and more are eliminating the real heart of cRPGs (in my opinion) as stats no longer drive the main gameplay mechanic. Just as archaic yet once-popular turn-based gameplay only seems to exist in pure strategy games or indie-rpgs, I forsee the entire industy stepping away from stats controlling the action.</P>
<P>I am not attempting to nay-say or suggest that PC gaming or RPGs are dying out. Stat-based gameplay is still popular in many JRPGs, though the new Final Fantasy is throwing much of their classic battle system out the window in favor for a more action-oriented system.</P>
<P>I think the solution is to purchase and play more classic cRPGs that you may have missed, pass over games that you feel simplify to a fault, and express your opinion to developers who have community forums. We operate in an economic democracy, and you cast your vote every time you spend your money. Perhaps if we support the RPGs we feel are best offering the style of gameplay we desire, we’ll see more of it.</P> |
Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:56 pm |
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maga
Village Dweller
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 20
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BRAVO !
But aren't we actually the minority here ? |
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:58 pm |
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Drew Radley
Guest
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| Here's how I define CRPGs |
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A CRPG relies on the character's skills to complete the game and not the player's skill with the keyboard/mouse/joy stick. No matter how engrossing a story is, if you have to rely entirly on your own abilities, it's not role playing. |
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:19 pm |
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niteshade
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 100
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That seems like a reasonable enough definition, although that would certainly define a game like Deus Ex as an RPG, not that this is necesarily a bad thing. I actually find genre is one of the main things that effects weither people view a game as a RPG. Take Deus Ex for example. Most don't consider it to be a RPG. Now let's imagine it was a fantasy game with similar mechanics. You had swords and magic items instead of guns, and you learned spells instead of installing cybernetics. Then almost everyone would consider it to be a RPG. Certainly it has no fewer RPG elements then say Gothic.
As a result I think we are all innately programmed to think of fantasy games as RPGs if they contain any RPG elements, and non fantasy games as non RPGs unless they contain tons of RPG elements. |
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:39 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
| Re: Side Quest: Defining the Evolving Genre |
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quote:
Originally posted by Enderandrew
He also calls inventory management a drudgery. I wonder if RPGs are really his thing. I don’t mind if developers make games that don’t cater to me, but I don’t understand why RPGs should stop catering to RPG fans. As titles like inXile’s new Bard’s Tale have completely eliminated the inventory system entirely, I think they have only served to alienate the RPG audience who enjoyed the previous titles in the franchise. Some may see such management as drudgery, and others see such mechanics as an opportunity to flex mental-muscles and apply strategy to better one’s position within the game. While the mechanic of swinging a sword to squash a monster may be repetitive, each new swing might offer up a new reward in the goody it drops. Swapping and collecting each of these pieces of gear may seem like a chore, but to others it is a challenge in and of itself that provides its own entertainment and replay value.
Anyone who calls inventory management a drudgery obviously hasn't played a little game called Diablo 2. Can we say "glorified treasure hunt"? 
That game sold millions of units. Not bad for a CRPG.
Good article, Enderandrew. I pretty much agree with your points.
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:10 pm |
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Enderandrew
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 111
Location: Omaha, NE |
I'm glad people liked the editorial.
If people have ideas or suggestions for future Side Quest pieces, let me know! |
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:16 pm |
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Namirrha
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 218
Location: Utah County, Utah. |
| Re: Here's how I define CRPGs |
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quote:
Originally posted by Drew Radley
A CRPG relies on the character's skills to complete the game and not the player's skill with the keyboard/mouse/joy stick. No matter how engrossing a story is, if you have to rely entirly on your own abilities, it's not role playing.
If only it were so clear-cut... Are Jagged Alliance and Silent Storm RPGs then? Has Morrowind invalidated its "RPG-ness" by having a player fumble with the mouse to swing a sword? Where does one draw the line between player knowledge and character knowledge? The two can merge seamlessly. By this strict definition, many games commonly regarded RPGs would not be and other games not commonly regarded as RPGs might be (adventure games, for instance). You're tackling an incredibly diverse and heterogeneous genre, in the same way people have tried to define what science fiction and fantasy are, only to realize that in reality there are no clear boundaries except those imposed by marketing. It might be better to talk about RPGs in terms of common elements.
By the way, nice to see you, Enderandrew! I'm not sure if you'd remember me, but I chatted with you a few times on the Obsidian board under the name Nexus. It's always good to see a familiar internet face.
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Give me the shadows, shield me from the light, and I shall let nothing pass in the darkness of the night. |
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Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:09 am |
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Mystery_Guy
Village Dweller
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 20
Location: U.S. |
*claps*
I've had plenty of arguments over this, and always had your position: Anything that is stat heavy is an RPG. I can make up the story in my head, which I often do anyway. Being insane is fun.
To the last poster: I consider JA2 a strat-RPG. Never played Silent Storm, so I can't say.
stats. That's all you need. Even ES:MW had stats. That makes it an RPG, albeit a watered down one. |
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Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:22 am |
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Guest
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quote:
Anyone who calls inventory management a drudgery obviously hasn't played a little game called Diablo 2. Can we say "glorified treasure hunt"?
That game sold millions of units. Not bad for a CRPG.
Not bad at all, assuming you can get the hardcore element here to admit that Diablo II is a CRPG in the first place. Me, I feel that stats and character development make for an RPG. But word on the streets is that not all agree.
But I digress. In regards to inventory management, while there was of course some futzing around with it in DII, I think the drudgery in question is more prevalent in part-based games. Think of JA2, BG/IWD (years ago I saw BGII referred to as an "inventory management sim"; quite a propos (I think that was Old Man Murray, but even if not I'll take a moment of silence to remember it ... )) in fact, any of the CRPGs in which there's an encumberance system. On the one hand, of course I agree that it's for the best that any game open up additional facets for strategic consideration. On the other hand, I can't imagine any gamer willing to spend 1/10th the amount of time that I have staring at inventory screens trying to find just the right loadout for each character/agent/merc could be described as "casual". And there's a lot more of those gamers than there are of me.
It is indeed a democracy, but in my country they keep it pretty quiet that democracy kinda blows if your views differ from those of the majority. In the end, the genre that we are all here to celebrate may not even have a place in the brave new world of gaming for the masses. I think it is not the elements of RPGs (namely stats) which will be disseminated to other genres, but the trappings; the settings, the swords, the busty, scantily-clad elves. As devs really start going after the crowds (male and female!) who flocked to see LotR, they surely won't be making the kind of CRPGs that we cherish. If the masses wanted more Wizardry VIII, they'd be getting it. They do not. |
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Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:47 am |
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yeesh
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 113
Location: Unofficially representing Queens |
Oh that's why I had to put in a verification code thingy. |
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Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:51 am |
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Enderandrew
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 111
Location: Omaha, NE |
I do recall you Nexus, and I'm going to try and help foster these forums a bit more. I think RPGDot offers great news, features and the wonderful games database. I'm shocked there isn't more of a community on these forums considering all the work that goes into this site.
As far as whether Morrowind or Diablo II are RPGs, I'd say they both are. In Morrowind, you have to click to swing, but your ability to land a blow is driven by stats. That is actually no longer the case in Oblivion, where timing controls completely whether or not you hit. Thusly I think Oblivion is an Action-RPG whether people are classifying it as such or not.
Diablo II is completely stat-driven combat. The gameplay mechanic leads to a click-fest, and it may not be everyone's favorite type of CRPG, but it is a CRPG regardless. I am not a fan of Diablo personally, but even the mighty Feargus, coffee-fetcher and CEO of Obsidian admits Diablo is a CRPG. |
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Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:14 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
There are actually several communities here, they're called Usergroups!!  Great article by the way!!
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If God said it, then that settles it!
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Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:58 am |
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Enderandrew
I do recall you Nexus, and I'm going to try and help foster these forums a bit more. I think RPGDot offers great news, features and the wonderful games database. I'm shocked there isn't more of a community on these forums considering all the work that goes into this site.
This is more of news sites compared with other forums and quite open-minded. I wonder if there is middle between closed tight community and open loose community but I think this site is more of the latter. They even allow jump-in anonymous posts as you can see.
Back to the topic
The definition of CRPG is really vague. For me, role-playing game is more about interactive story, NPC and world. My idea of RPG is near to the idea of Chris Avellone.
Just in case, here is the first part of the interview.
Actually, he behaves more gentlemanly than he does in an interview with NMA while ago. 
Although my priority for RPG is different, I like tactical CRPG, too, and even bought ToEE with its full price but my support don't seem to have worked despite of what Dhruin had to say, at least in this case. For tactical tastes, there will be JA series and Hammer and Sickle, though. |
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Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:22 am |
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Enderandrew
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 111
Location: Omaha, NE |
I'm a big fan of MCA, so I read all his interviews. I think he gave Odin a hard time because the two of them have a certain rapport. It sure seems like Odin emails him a bit and harrasses him.
Odin has been covering MCA and the Fallout games for years. |
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Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:31 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Good article. I personaly think roleplaying is the driver behind a game being classified as a roleplaying game. I don't see why people get so uptight when a game they like isn't an rpg. I love silent storm and s3 but don't consider them rpgs, because they ain't. I also liked beyond good and evil, which is a zelda like game and isn't an rpg.
Where is yeesh and priest4hire? They think everything is an rpg. They are equal opertunity rpg classifiers.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:29 am |
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