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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
| Re: Ultima IX Ascension - Still largest gaming world for 3D |
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quote:
Originally posted by Danicek
What? I do not know, but it seems to me, that some people are just bitter about Morrowind.
Morrowind is not flat, it has many mountains btw. and there is so many lakes, nice corners and every area has its own flowers, trees, weather (and building).
Why would I be bitter? I judge games on what the provide. Its not like it was an old girlfriend or anything.
Morrowind just didnt do it for me. Sorry...
_________________
IMHO my opinion is humble |
Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:47 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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| Re: Ultima IX Ascension - Still largest gaming world for 3D |
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quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Morrowind's landscapes were more gaphically stunning and had more variation than Gothic 1/2.
I'm sorry but I have to completely dissagree on that point. The only variety that I can see in Morrowind is in the architecture of the cities. The landscapes are all mostly the same. With slight variations in texture on the ground and maybe a few pools/rivers or a couple of trees dotted around.
In gothic 2 you have:
(Items missing from morrowind are in bold
realbeaches, with actual sand
Massive valleys
Huge Cliffs & overhangs
huge rivers and waterfalls
graveyards
cave systems that are actually part of the world (Not a seperate cell)
realistic swamps
forests/woods
I am sure there are more, but I cant think of them.
And yes, I have seen the screenshots for the new Morrowind addon, and the forests in that dont quite come close to Gothic 2. And the so called mountains are just large balls of rock. Nothing close to the realism of the Gothic Geography.
P.S. I didnt mean it as an insult when I said you missed the point. I just meant that you were talking about the 3D-ness of the games, when this topic was about the size of the worlds, not their 3D-ness or interaction.[/b]
Haha...
This made me wonder if you actually played Morrowind, and not looked at simple screenshots.
Morrowind has MANY valleys. And many mountains. The mountains have very varied textures, with trees/paths/plants on them. And they are often FAR huger than the Gothic "mountains".
Morrowind has rivers, I'm amazed you haven't found any, actually. And with water, FAR better made than in Gothic. Just look at the water effects you can have in Morrowind... puts Gothic to SHAME. Wait here... Gothic have HUGE rivers? Where?
Cave systems are not a part of the world? Haha... what the... what did that come from? Morrowind basically need it, since all the cave systems of Morrowind put together would be bigger than half of the Gothic 2 WORLD. NOT TO MENTION all the various dungeons/tombs/house interiors of Morrowind. What does Gothic have? Tiny caves in by the roadside with about 2 corridors and 3 small rooms?
Morrowind has burned ground, something Gothic doesn't have.
Morrowind has varied cities, which are FAR more impressive than the little town of Khorinis (compare that to cities like Vivec or the crazy plant-like cities of Ald-Sotha and Vos).
Morrowind, has a kind of exotic island archipelagio, with a magic touch on it. (Big mushrooms, etc).
Graveyards? Oh, Morrowind has TONS of those... you've never been to an ancestral tomb?
The ancient dwarven castles in Morrowind... can't find stuff like that in Gothic. Nor the daedric ruins.
I though the swamps in Morrowind were pretty realistic. Oh, you mean they miss that green foggy thing that Gothic has? Because we know THAT'S how a swamp look like. Haha...
Compare the midnight sky of Gothic to Morrowind. Morrowind's is FAR mor impressive, with more detail than Gothic.
Morrowind has a FAR greater FLORA and FAUNA than Gothic. And, the plants are in 3D, not in 2D like in Gothic.
Oh... what else... Morrowind has various weathers, instead of the ordinary rain in Gothic. Morrowind has the ash-storms, cloudy days etc.
Morrowind has islands to boot.
And, of course, with the expansions Morrowind has snow and ice landscapes and ordinary forrests.
As for the topic, no it was not about how big 3D world it had. It was how interactive the world was, without counting Morrowind, since that game would have OWNED every other game in this contest.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:24 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Comparing Gothic and Morrowind is like comparing apples and pears. Needless to say I like both apples and pears. And the biggest Fantasy CRPG gaming world still is that of Daggerfall  .
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Jaz |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:33 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
| Re: Ultima IX Ascension - Still largest gaming world for 3D |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Danicek, get yer goshdarn quotes straight! No more skooma for you!
Sorry - my stupid mistake. I already repaire it. |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:39 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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Well, there's that too... and I guess you're right there, Jaz.
But, if you want to see it from that point of view, Morrowind has a nice little MOD BUILDER which lets you add as much land as you want. And add your own textures etc. This has the potential of making Morrowind infinitely large. Who wins now?
BTW... I wonder how big online worlds like EQ, UO and SWG are...
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:40 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
| Re: Ultima IX Ascension - Still largest gaming world for 3D |
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I dont know why I bother posting my oppinions here. I try and have a normal conversation, and everyone just gets so damn emotional over it. Its just a game for heavens sake!
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Haha...
This made me wonder if you actually played Morrowind, and not looked at simple screenshots.
Yes I have Morrowind. I would'nt post an oppinion on a game I havent played.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Morrowind has MANY valleys. And many mountains. The mountains have very varied textures, with trees/paths/plants on them. And they are often FAR huger than the Gothic "mountains".
Morrowind has no valleys or mountains. I have been over the entire world. And YES, the elevation of the land does raise in places, and to a large degree. But please look up the defenition of a mountain. Morrowind has no TRUE mountainous regions at all, just very big hills.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Morrowind has rivers, I'm amazed you haven't found any, actually. And with water, FAR better made than in Gothic. Just look at the water effects you can have in Morrowind... puts Gothic to SHAME. Wait here... Gothic have HUGE rivers? Where?
Yes it has rivers, but not like Gothic. They are all on the same plane. None of them go down hill, and none of them have rapids OR waterfalls. That is what I mean by a huge river. Go look at the main river outside the old camp on Gothic 1 for a good example. Or the one at the top of the mountain near the harpy nest, the one that starts at the sunken necomancer tower with the large lake and waterfall.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Cave systems are not a part of the world? Haha... what the... what did that come from? Morrowind basically need it, since all the cave systems of Morrowind put together would be bigger than half of the Gothic 2 WORLD. NOT TO MENTION all the various dungeons/tombs/house interiors of Morrowind. What does Gothic have? Tiny caves in by the roadside with about 2 corridors and 3 small rooms?
Sorry, but morrowind needed it very badly. Last time I checked, caves didnt always have doors on them.
As for it being bigger than half of the Gothic 2 World, sure I agree, morrowind is way bigger. But I would rather have a smaller concentrated area with interesting stuff, than a huge expanse of land with odd interesting things spread far and wide.
Dungeon/Tomb/House interiors of morrowind eh? Last time I checked, Gothic had house interiors too, and they didnt need to be in a different cell. Also, the tombs in Morrowind are pittiful. Most of them are just caves with a few doors thrown in and a couple of caskets in there. Try comparing any of those to the sleeper temple, or the expansive caves under the cliffs. I am sorry, but both Gothics have caves that are way bigger than 2 corridors and three small rooms. Which coincidentally, is what I remember most of Morrowinds "Dungeons" consisting of.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Morrowind has burned ground, something Gothic doesn't have.
whoopdey doo. Gothic has burned buildings!
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Morrowind has varied cities, which are FAR more impressive than the little town of Khorinis (compare that to cities like Vivec or the crazy plant-like cities of Ald-Sotha and Vos).
Yes, I agree. Which is what I said in my last post. No need to counter argue with my own comments.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Morrowind, has a kind of exotic island archipelagio, with a magic touch on it. (Big mushrooms, etc).
Sure does. Don't really see how that makes it better.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Graveyards? Oh, Morrowind has TONS of those... you've never been to an ancestral tomb?
You call a cave with a tombstone and some skeletons thrown in to be a graveyard? Sorry, doesnt quite cut it. Try taking a look at the overgrown graveyards with the mist and broken down fences/headstones of gothic for what a REAL graveyard should look like.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
The ancient dwarven castles in Morrowind... can't find stuff like that in Gothic. Nor the daedric ruins.
I liked those, but Gothic has the Sleeper temple which in my oppinion is just as good.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
I though the swamps in Morrowind were pretty realistic. Oh, you mean they miss that green foggy thing that Gothic has? Because we know THAT'S how a swamp look like. Haha...
No I mean that there are reeds and trees etc. Because morrowind opted for the nice real leaves on trees, most of them look so empty and there are so few that its hardly a swamp at all. More like a marsh.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Compare the midnight sky of Gothic to Morrowind. Morrowind's is FAR mor impressive, with more detail than Gothic.
You can have that one. Morrowind does have very nice sky.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Morrowind has a FAR greater FLORA and FAUNA than Gothic. And, the plants are in 3D, not in 2D like in Gothic.
The main plants in Gothic are 3D, only grass and stuff are not in 3D. Morrowind probably does beat Gothic with the fauna, but there are more important things to me. If the landscape had the kind of attention to detail and realism of the fauna then maybe Morrowind would have been more to my liking.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Oh... what else... Morrowind has various weathers, instead of the ordinary rain in Gothic. Morrowind has the ash-storms, cloudy days etc.
True...
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Morrowind has islands to boot.
Gothic also has islands. Maybe not quite as many. But why is that a problem?
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
And, of course, with the expansions Morrowind has snow and ice landscapes and ordinary forrests.
Yeah I have seen that snow and ice. Looks like they just changed the texture on the same old rocks to me...
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
As for the topic, no it was not about how big 3D world it had. It was how interactive the world was, without counting Morrowind, since that game would have OWNED every other game in this contest.
Read the subject....
Morrowind was excluded because it was not as interactive. That was not the subject of the topic.
_________________
IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 10:52 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
Morrowind has no valleys or mountains. I have been over the entire world. And YES, the elevation of the land does raise in places, and to a large degree. But please look up the defenition of a mountain. Morrowind has no TRUE mountainous regions at all, just very big hills.
Dagoth Ur, the Mountains around the mine VALLEY of Caldera. They are certainly more of mountains than what is in Gothic 2, that's for sure.
quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
Yes it has rivers, but not like Gothic. They are all on the same plane. None of them go down hill, and none of them have rapids OR waterfalls. That is what I mean by a huge river. Go look at the main river outside the old camp on Gothic 1 for a good example. Or the one at the top of the mountain near the harpy nest, the one that starts at the sunken necomancer tower with the large lake and waterfall.
That little river outside the old camp is certainly not comparable to the huge Morrowind rivers (for example: The one by Balmora).
No, Morrowind lacks waterfalls, true. But you also said rivers.
quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
Sorry, but morrowind needed it very badly. Last time I checked, caves didnt always have doors on them.
As for it being bigger than half of the Gothic 2 World, sure I agree, morrowind is way bigger. But I would rather have a smaller concentrated area with interesting stuff, than a huge expanse of land with odd interesting things spread far and wide.
Dungeon/Tomb/House interiors of morrowind eh? Last time I checked, Gothic had house interiors too, and they didnt need to be in a different cell. Also, the tombs in Morrowind are pittiful. Most of them are just caves with a few doors thrown in and a couple of caskets in there. Try comparing any of those to the sleeper temple, or the expansive caves under the cliffs. I am sorry, but both Gothics have caves that are way bigger than 2 corridors and three small rooms. Which coincidentally, is what I remember most of Morrowinds "Dungeons" consisting of.
What was this thread about again? I'm so confused now... is it or is it not about the biggest world?
As for Gothic 2... there were huge areas with virtually nothing but wilderness. Maybe one cave. Case in point: the northern forrest.
Haha... yeah, since the tombs/grave yards in Gothic 2 are SO EXCITING, YES? Not just a few stones in a fence with some monsters thrown in? Hahahaha... nice grasping for straws, there.
Last time I checked, the house interiors of Morrowind combined, probably covers the other half of the Gothic 2 WORLD. Oh, those horrible loading times, yes?
You have a funny memory, let me aid you. Take the little dungeon in the "valley" where Lester is. Yeah, that REALLY big one. Or perhaps the one behind the graveyard by the tavern? Also, VERY VERY big. Unfortunately, they represent the majority of caves you find in Gothic. Rather pitiful, actually.
Morrowinds dungeons/caves were often large systems, with large rooms inside, harboring many monsters. The tombs could be small, but could also be EXTREMELY big (see Ushiliraku's (SP?) resting place). The daedra shrines could also be small, but were more often VERY VERY big (see dungeons like Ald Sotha, or Bal Ur/Bal Fell).
You take the two dungeons that were very important to the plot and try to prove anything? The Dagoth Ur complex ALONE is BIGGER than BOTH of them. And, HAS WAY more CONTENT.
But, there are many many other dungeons in Morrowind which are important and filled with stuff... of course.
quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
You call a cave with a tombstone and some skeletons thrown in to be a graveyard? Sorry, doesnt quite cut it. Try taking a look at the overgrown graveyards with the mist and broken down fences/headstones of gothic for what a REAL graveyard should look like.
Let me help you with this. Gothic and Morrowind take places in COMPLETELY different environments with different cultures.
Now, what did Gothic's graveyards look like? OH, THAT'S RIGHT, they were a bunch of grave stones thrown together, with a couple of skeletons to guard. This is great!
quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
Read the subject....
Morrowind was excluded because it was not as interactive. That was not the subject of the topic.
Yes, thus the entire competition and the rules where changed. You can't just make exceptions like that simply because you don't like the game.
Morrowind had a bigger 3D world than ultima, but wasn't allowed to compete, simply because the topic-author had the notion that it was not as interactive as Ultima. But, Gothic was brought up, a game that has an even less interactive environment than Morrowind.
Fairness? Sure thang...
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:18 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
You seem to be dwelling a lot on the size of areas (Which I knows was the topic of the thread). But my main point is that the geography of Gothic is a lot nicer.
You keep saying how much bigger the caves are in Morrowind. But to be honest, I dont really care. The caves are just huge boring twisting tubes. There is very little of interest in the geological formation of the caves.
Yes, Gothic graveyards are fenced in areas of headstones. But to me thats a lot more interesting that another huge winding empty tube cave with a few monsters thrown in.
Yes there are areas of nothing but wilderness in Gothic. But thats the whole point. The fact that its just wilderness and its STILL fun to explore shows me that Gothics landscapes are way more fun than Morrowind.
Comparing Morrowinds landscapes to Gothic is kind of like comparing Dooms graphics to Ultima Underworld. Sure, Doom's are technically nicer, but Ultima Underworld was true 3D. You could go over and under geography, just like you can in Gothic. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I couldnt find a single outside location in Morrowind where there was some kind of overhang on a cliff that you could walk under, or even some kind of hollow carved out of a hill.
You are obviously not going to agree with me on any of these points. But the fact remains, Morrowind is just pseudo 3D where vertical geography is concerned. Gothic is true 3D.
Oh and BTW, I am not clutching at straws for anything. I am simply stating facts that I have observed. I do not need to provide things to prove my point because quite honestly I couldnt care less whether you agree with me or not. I just thought I would post my oppinion. But sadly, I end up getting dragged into another depressing argument...
_________________
IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:43 am |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Keep cool, people. This reads like some thread about religion.
_________________
Jaz |
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Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:11 am |
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hoyp
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 501
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Sooner or later, fanboys of gothic and morrowind will start flaming each other and this thread would eventually be locked  . |
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Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:24 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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Fact?
Fact is, a game could be entirely flat, with 3D models and objects thrown in, it WOULD STILL BE 3D, if you can move in 3 dimensions.
Fact is, I really don't see why an abscense of a cliff would change the entire nature of an environment from 3D to 2.5D. Even though Morrowind had several "cliffs" inside caves and in places like the Ashlands. Plus, of course, gigantic, hollow rock formations, like around the city of Gnisis.
Fact is, that since you can levitate and stuff like that in Morrowind, it has more freedom of movement, and is more 3D than Gothic ever will be. And, with higher mountains, more changing environments and altitude changes in the landscape is, apperantely, what makes Morrowind a more 3D game than Gothic. Waterfalls or no waterfalls.
Does Gothic have any waterfilles dungeons/caves? Well, probably not... since swimming underwater in Gothic is horrible at best. How about underwater environment? Oh, that's right... just a few seaweeds here and there in Gothic, not any kollops, not any water-monsters, not any underwater sunken ships or ruins and not various plants like in Morrowind.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:17 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Well, You know, it's quite possible to like both games. And I'm sure I'm not alone with this declaration.
I don't think these two games are like apples and peaches, because their playstyles is very alike IMHO, so they are very comparable.
The contest about the nicest graphics, size and landscape variations, is often not possible, as it's all about taste and preferences, and not inviolable facts.
My main guess on why some people do like the one and not the other (or prefer)is in the guidance of the game. Gothic (2) hold the players hands tighter in what he/she should/could do next, where Morrowind more often let the player stumble over the next move in storyline.
I do like both games for their unique gameplay, and even though they have many resemblances, they still feels like two different games to play, and that's ofcourse a good thing, I can understand that one prefer the one from the other, but never this hate/love relation which is often seen between two similar games.
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Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:56 am |
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oozle
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 18 Dec 2001
Posts: 112
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Ok let me clarify what I had in mind
1. Morrowind's gameworld is huge granted. But it is just so static. It's as if u're viewing a slideshow. Trees don't move, the sceneary is sooooo repatative. With the exception of a few towns here and there it looks like bitmap images. The animations are also very poor of the characters (like stike figures)
2. The world of gothic lives and breathes (trees move in the wind, there is fauna all over)
3. Ultima IX was similar for its time, given the world was so vibrant
In terms of shere size, Ultima IX was massive. Gothic 2, although big, is no match to the size of Ultima IX's gameworld. However, size of a gameworld is not everything. If size alone were the decisive factor, Morrowind would easily take the cake. However, for it to be believable, the gameowlrd really needs to be a "world" not just a bunch of images! |
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Mon Jun 30, 2003 12:56 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
quote:
Originally posted by Jaz
...And the biggest Fantasy CRPG gaming world still is that of Daggerfall .
Hey, you answered the question that appeared in the topic title - where did you get a crazy idea like that? 
I agree, Daggerfall's gameworld dwarfs any other in my experience. This reminds me of a discussion with a friend of mine about the discrepancy between the way some designers create worlds, and the way players play games. Many designers are trying to realise highly-detailed worlds, with an ideal that every avenue of exploration you'd find in the real world should be represented in the gameworld. But this is at odds with the behaviour of most players ("hardcore" gamers, at least) - knowing that the artificial world is finite, players will attempt to explore every avenue before moving on to a new area. This is a totally unrealistic way to behave (if you're asked to "find Mr. Smith," you don't search every building in town, you examine your information about Mr. Smith and go straight for your most promising lead) - but absolute realism and great gameplay rarely go hand-in-hand. This is fine if the designers understand the players' curiosity, and can create a gameworld that's just big enough to encourage exploration, but small enough that all its details can be found before the process becomes tedious (Gothic and Deus Ex spring to mind, as examples of games that got the balance exactly right). But often, designers persuing this high-detail goal give the player too much to do without any real aim, and they bore themselves of the game.
This "find everything" impulse is only avoided if the gameworld is so vast that the player realises they couldn't possibly hope to systematically explore it all, and so they travel in a way that more closely resembles real life - ie, looking for specific places or types of place, following leads, finding profitable trade routes, etc. Daggerfall and Elite are the only games I've played that used this approach successfully. IMO Morrowind had a lot of close-up detail and lots to do, but the gameworld (towns & cities specifically) wasn't quite big or varied enough to convince the player that they couldn't do & see everything the game had to offer, and this encouraged tedious exhaustive exploration with little reward; Daggerfall, on the other hand, was so insanely huge that no player would try to explore every nook and cranny right from the outset - it discouraged systematic exploration, and encouraged the player to do things for a reason, rather than just for the sake of it, and I belive this greatly enriched the experience. |
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Mon Jun 30, 2003 1:24 pm |
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oozle
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 18 Dec 2001
Posts: 112
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I think you're absolutely spot on. However, I would anyday prefer a game to be created where the player feels there is no scope for them to explore the entire world as it simply is too large. But rather, the gameplay mimics real life, in that you only explore those parts of the world you need to.
However, this will not happen in a 3D game for a long time yet, given the time it takes to create such a world, with the little chance that a player not even see most of it.
Unless of course they invent a randomised 3D world that just keep respawning itself in a random order (can u imagine a world like that of Gothic 2 that just randomly creates itself over and over again the farther out you go  |
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Mon Jun 30, 2003 2:04 pm |
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