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Ragnar
High Emperor
Joined: 30 Oct 2001
Posts: 486
Location: NJ USA |
Gorath...WTF is up with that responce? I think you just might have ruined any future chance for him to procreate. He was just voicing his opinion on a subject he obiouslly had strong feelings about......I mean, this is a forum....ain't it?
Are you getting mean in your old age?
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"That one hurt..."
Sylvio |
Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:14 pm |
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Wulf
The Shepherd
Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Posts: 2312
Location: North/West.England |
I found out about the problem some time ago, i didn't complain, instead, using common sense i anticipated that the issue was certainly going to repeat itself again in the future and being a devoted gamer for many years i couldn't accept this.
So, i built another pc-machine, a barebones, psuedo raided super-ata moster with no cd burner, no anti-malware, no anti-virus, no firewall, no internet, no-nothing but the minimal of running processes. Now i continue playing rpg's and similar with not a care in the world - the way it should be. This is how i personally got round the problem and retrospectively fits with with what Goraths is saying.
......i welcome Gothic 3.....and Starforce. 
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Forever aches my wretched soul, for Chromanin locked in that dark hole, though crypted key i've yet to learn, he knows one day i will return. |
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Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:59 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Yeah, having several computers is very useful. If I want to burn a DVD, I'll use the comp which is equipped for it. If I want to play DOS games, I'll use my Win98 rig. If I want to play newerPC games, I'll use my own, 'personal', dual boot comp and XP , and if I want to write and browse the net etc., I'll use the Linux setup. Never had problems with copy protection so far.
@Ragnar: Compared to me, Gorath is a youngster.
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Jaz |
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Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:10 am |
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Uriziel
Grand Mage
Joined: 17 May 2002
Posts: 735
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I personally just throw a PC away when it needs rebooting, updated, or if the montior gets a speck of dust on it. No need to expect your hardware to be safe and last very long these days. Software companies should be welcome to destroy your PC whenever they wish! And of course they have no obligation to warn you about their dangerous code. Why should they? If something breaks, obviously you are a pirate and the protection scheme worked.
After thinking about it, I have been too slack on building new computers. Maybe i should build a new one everytime a bit is written to the hard drive! Or maybe 30 computers a month for people who can't afford a more rigorous upgrade schedule. Some of the poorest slobs will be reduced to having only ONE computer for each app or game they have! 
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Chris: Dad, what's the blow-hole for?
Peter: I'll tell you what it's not for, son. And when I do, you'll understand why I can never go back to Sea World. |
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Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:45 am |
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Svetty
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 29
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Am I right in believing that the recent NOTR versions have Starforce?
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Svetty
The Devil's Advocate |
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Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:37 pm |
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Rebooter
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 46
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People really should solidly boycott StarForce. It is total garbage and it's just not right to force anyone to install it to play an otherwise good game.
My brother just installed a demo that turned out to have StarForce. Then later when he went to burn a DVD with Roxio Easy DVD Creator, it wouldn't recognize the blank discs at all. He finally had to use the StarForce removal utility and those same discs worked fine.
And just because you might currently have StarFoce installed and you're not having problems doesn't mean you won't later with a new version of SF or when you upgrade your hardware. |
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Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:46 pm |
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Acleacius
King of the Realms
Joined: 24 Dec 2002
Posts: 453
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I don't think so, Svetty.
I am not certian, thou. |
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Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:22 pm |
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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
I'm not an hardware-expert and thus don't know how much bullshit is involved with this subject, but I do know that some of my pals have had serious problems in their systems due to Starforce. Furthermore many of those so called serious game forums have had countless of discussions and rants about SF causing troubles etc. So I'm quite sure it ain't a myth and its annoying ppl for a reason.
I'm personally hoping that jowood decides to leave SF out. It saddens me that it has come to this. Honest customers and fans have to suffer extra headaches because of "some copy protection software". Its not like those selfish thieves (pirates) would buy their game anyway.
Its a good thing that ppl are boycotting sf protected games.
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:30 pm |
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Ragnar
High Emperor
Joined: 30 Oct 2001
Posts: 486
Location: NJ USA |
There is another solution to this problem.....the use of a Hasp or Key or whatever you want to call it. My company has been using them for years. It fits into a USB socket and when you start the program....it looks for the key. If it finds it....it runs...if its not there....it won't run. Just that simple.
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"That one hurt..."
Sylvio |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:10 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Dez
I'm personally hoping that jowood decides to leave SF out. It saddens me that it has come to this. Honest customers and fans have to suffer extra headaches because of "some copy protection software". Its not like those selfish thieves (pirates) would buy their game anyway.
JoWooD can decide whatever they want. It doesnīt matter.
The local publishers/distributors have the last word about the copy protection because they take the financial risk (manufacturing, logistics and especially returns of unsold inventory). JoWooD uses a royalty based business model instead of finished goods. Less risk for JoWooD -> smaller slice of the cake -> less influence.
In case of SpellForce 2 this meant JoWooD said "no Starforce" but Deep Silver said "thanks for your suggestion, weīll use it anyway".
quote:
Its a good thing that ppl are boycotting sf protected games.
This is arguable. In short:
- Are you sure other CPs are better? Most also use drivers - without asking.
- Are you sure the publisher makes the connection "Starforce -> no sale!"? Isnīt it more likely he thinks "Thereīs no market for such a niche game. I should invest in a shooter the next time." ?
The key point is to let them know why you didnīt buy it. Send the publisher a short and precise letter via snail mail. Be polite and convincing. A few thousand letters will have an effect.
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Webmaster GothicDot |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:08 pm |
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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
quote:
JoWooD can decide whatever they want. It doesnīt matter.
The local publishers/distributors have the last word about the copy protection because they take the financial risk (manufacturing, logistics and especially returns of unsold inventory). JoWooD uses a royalty based business model instead of finished goods. Less risk for JoWooD -> smaller slice of the cake -> less influence.
In case of SpellForce 2 this meant JoWooD said "no Starforce" but Deep Silver said "thanks for your suggestion, weīll use it anyway".
I know you didn't mean it to sound funny, but "thanks for your suggestion, we'll use it anyway" made me grin here  . Yes its not Jowood alone who can make decisions about these things, but they are the ones who can influence their partners. But like you said, its a whole other thing whether they'll care.
quote:
- Are you sure other CPs are better? Most also use drivers - without asking.
- Are you sure the publisher makes the connection "Starforce -> no sale!"? Isnīt it more likely he thinks "Thereīs no market for such a niche game. I should invest in a shooter the next time."
The key point is to let them know why you didnīt buy it. Send the publisher a short and precise letter via snail mail. Be polite and convincing. A few thousand letters will have an effect.
Well in my opinion any copy protection which can cause extra headaches to a paying customer is a bad thing. After all these protection softwares don't stop people warezing games, they mostly annoy us, fans who buy games. One viable solution would be the cd-key.
I'm very sorry if they think so, but voting with your wallet seems to be the only thing these people listen to. its a real shame if gothic 3 will use sf. I would love to buy it no matter what, but I don't want to give my support to SF. Writing a letter sounds good. I might do that in case of g3 comes with sf.
Although i want to give my support to piranhas, so looks like i have to buy g3 anyway and then later on download it from the internet, so that i don't have to use SF.
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:32 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Ragnar
There is another solution to this problem.....the use of a Hasp or Key or whatever you want to call it. My company has been using them for years. It fits into a USB socket and when you start the program....it looks for the key. If it finds it....it runs...if its not there....it won't run. Just that simple.
That's not really feasible IMHO and has actually already been tried a looong time ago when shareware was still very popular. Why is it not feasible?
Well, imagine the pain of having to keep track of not only numerous CDs/DVDs but also of USB dongles.
That would be a major annoyance for the consumer if you would have to look for the CD/DVD *and* the USB stick every time you wanted to play a game.
It also generates an additional need for product support.
What if the USB stick is broken, incompatible, just does not work? You need to employ people to answer support calls and to take care of RMA'ing defective sticks etc.
This is all way too much hassle for a copy protection that could probably still be hacked (e.g. downloadable cracks that you could flash to an empty USB stick to emulate the copy protection).
I personally think that they should continue to pursue the idea of online activation. You don't really need a "corporate" version of a game  so it should be possible to keep an online activation system very, very tight and safe. Just like with MMOGs where no one can just play the game for free usually. I hope that all driver-based copy protection will eventually be dropped in favor of online activation but looking at the outcry that followed Half-Life 2 (OMG!!!1111 tehy axually require peeple t0 h4ve a f00kin internet c0nnexion OMG!!!111 teh end of teh w0rld is n1gh!!!11) it's probably not going to happen anytime soon. Pity. |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:30 pm |
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Uriziel
Grand Mage
Joined: 17 May 2002
Posts: 735
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quote:
Originally posted by Moriendor
quote:
Originally posted by Ragnar
There is another solution to this problem.....the use of a Hasp or Key or whatever you want to call it. My company has been using them for years. It fits into a USB socket and when you start the program....it looks for the key. If it finds it....it runs...if its not there....it won't run. Just that simple.
That's not really feasible IMHO and has actually already been tried a looong time ago when shareware was still very popular. Why is it not feasible?
Well, imagine the pain of having to keep track of not only numerous CDs/DVDs but also of USB dongles.
That would be a major annoyance for the consumer if you would have to look for the CD/DVD *and* the USB stick every time you wanted to play a game.
It also generates an additional need for product support.
What if the USB stick is broken, incompatible, just does not work? You need to employ people to answer support calls and to take care of RMA'ing defective sticks etc.
This is all way too much hassle for a copy protection that could probably still be hacked (e.g. downloadable cracks that you could flash to an empty USB stick to emulate the copy protection).
I personally think that they should continue to pursue the idea of online activation. You don't really need a "corporate" version of a game so it should be possible to keep an online activation system very, very tight and safe. Just like with MMOGs where no one can just play the game for free usually. I hope that all driver-based copy protection will eventually be dropped in favor of online activation but looking at the outcry that followed Half-Life 2 (OMG!!!1111 tehy axually require peeple t0 h4ve a f00kin internet c0nnexion OMG!!!111 teh end of teh w0rld is n1gh!!!11) it's probably not going to happen anytime soon. Pity.
First off, with a dongle the cd/dvd would not be needed and keeping track of it is no different tham finding the cd/dvd like you currently do.....and the dongle getting broken is no different than a scratched cd/dvd. But you are correct that cracking this system would'nt be that hard.
Server based authorization would be a much better security measure than anything currently used, but it too is not 100% secure. It WOULD stop a big percentage of pirates.....but not all. To be honest, NOTHING is 100% secure, given sufficient time and resources. That's no revelation to security peeps though. The point of security is to make it not worth the trouble......not to make it 100% safe.
I vaguely outlined a pretty good security measure in this thread: http://www.rpgdot.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=831073&highlight=encrypted#831073
The main problem is not securing a game. The main problem is publishers lack of vision, and total unwillingness to use the strong security options available to them.
_________________
Chris: Dad, what's the blow-hole for?
Peter: I'll tell you what it's not for, son. And when I do, you'll understand why I can never go back to Sea World. |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:18 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Uriziel
First off, with a dongle the cd/dvd would not be needed and keeping track of it is no different tham finding the cd/dvd like you currently do.....and the dongle getting broken is no different than a scratched cd/dvd. But you are correct that cracking this system would'nt be that hard.
Well, you would still need the CD/DVD to install the game  . Also, *if* one would consider to use a dongle at all, then what I was thinking of is a PGP-like system where the CD/DVD and the dongle basically need to come together like a lock and the key. That would be crackable for sure but it would take a while (most likely a long one, too) to figure out the encryption algorithm for the pair of keys. Anyway, I guess we have already agreed that the use of dongles is no real solution either so might as well not pursue it any further from here . |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:36 pm |
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