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VDweller
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Posts: 41
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quote:
Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
quote:
Originally posted by VDweller
I find it VERY hard to understand how a game made for, in your own words, brain dead people is a great game, and even one of the best games ever made.
I said it was the biggest fault of the game. I could go on for days about all the great things about Oblivion. I won't bore you though.
Well, how shal I put it? Let's say you have a great game, but it's made for brain dead people (again, your words, not mine). Would that design not taint everything?
quote:
quote:
More likely, you are having doubts about overall qualities of the game, and the review brought those doubts up, despite your attempts to convince yourself that it's one of the best games ever made.
Or.. when you published it I was ~50 hours into the game and I had formed my own opinions.
Obviously, I didn't imply that you formed your opinion based on any review. My point was that perhaps my review pointed something you've already experienced, but tried to dismiss. I'm saying it only because there was some duality in your claim that the game is made for brain dead people, and yet it's one of the best games ever, etc.
quote:
Many of your criticisms had me nodding in agreement. Of course your article lacked balance since you failed to point out any real positive attributes for Oblivion?
I failed to point the positive stuff out? Some quotes for your amusement:
On Magic: "Anyway, those changes are positive and, in my humble opinion, made the game more fun. The cast-n-fight feature alone is the best improvement to the series, and integrated into gameplay very nicely. The rocket launchers can unleash hell in seconds without paying attention to / being limited by mana (they are limited by charges though), so they might be a bit on the overpowering side. The stones, like I said, are an alternative, so that's always a good thing. "
On Combat: "Now, let's take a look at the combat from the action point of view. Hmm, not bad. I can hit anything that my sword connects with, I can jump back and forth, I can cast spells without having to disarm, and I can block manually, holding my shield up, while advancing in a totally menacing way. A big step forward from the MW's system."
On Dungeons: "The dungeon hack experience is one of the strongest elements of the game. Daggerfall featured huge, seemingly endless dungeons, where you could literally get lost without Mark & Recall spell. Morrowind fixed it by making the dungeons as small and linear as possible. Oblivion's dungeons are somewhere in between, and overall, superbly done. They are well designed, very atmospheric, with levers, buttons, and secret doors, and everything else you might expect from a good dungeon. After a while you may notice a repeating pattern, but it never bothered me."
On Quests: "Some dungeon-related quests are boring (go to this cave and clean it up), some are very interesting and well done, like the Pale Pass quest where you are given an ancient journal and need to figure out by clues where an old fort, containing some old relic, is. What makes this quest even better is a rare option not to fight its undead commander. Sadly, such quests and options are very rare. "
Overall: "Now, the main question is "Would you like Oblivion?”. If you are ok with the flaws I mentioned above, and if a mix of a shooter with stats and an adventure game where you follow several linear storylines without much input from you appeals to you, then get the game right now and have fun."
You were saying?
quote:
There arent any??? Combat, Graphics, Immersion, Cinematic quality Plot, Voice acting, Creative design, Architecture and um.... FUN?
Combat is better, but not as good as that of many action games. Jedi Academy, as I mentioned, did a much better job there. Upcoming Dark Messiah also offers much better combat. Graphics are ok. Nothing to write home about. Far Cry looked much better, without any "distance-related" problems. Immersion? Didn't work for me. The gameworld was too limiting, too hand-holding, telling me what to do at every step and allowing me to do only the most basic stuff. Cinematic quality plot? Don't know what you are talking about. Voice acting? Nice, but doesn't do much for me, especially when voices change so quickly, i.e. I'm talking to the first guy you see when you visit Kvatch, he's telling me how horrible things are in a terrified voice, then when I click to end the conversation, he barks at me for bothering him. Creative design? What's that? You are making those up, aren't you? Architecture? Not as impressive and interesting as that of MW. Fun? Fun is a very subjective thing, aint it?
quote:
I might bore you with accolades if I get on a roll. All games have pros and cons. Its just not UBER COOL for Codex to discuss the pros of... well... anything?
Simply not true. Have you read my Space Rangers 2 review? |
Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:58 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
Looks like you posted positives but they simply didnt stand out when I read it - due to the overwhelming negativity. Regardless it looks like I'm wrong and I stand corrected.
Again on the "near brain death" thing - that is only one aspect of the game. If the game was truely linear and forced you to quest that would be a showstopper - but its not. In Morrowind I played ~40 hours and never took a quest at all. In Oblivion I didnt take a quest for a good ~30 hours or so - just did free form exploration. The handholding on the side quests are a bit less noticable since you can have many at once and they simply have less handholding. The problem really manifests on the main quest. It starts to feel painfully guided like your in the Half Life 2 canals. In fact I think the main quest is easily elipsed by most of the side quests I've taken. Hell I think the Vampire Cure quest is far superior - it has alot less handholding in addition to having a very interesting twist to the game.
I hope you get my point. Oblivion is not just about questing - its about exploring and living in the world. In fact I'm glad the main quest is complete for me - now I can go back and mop up the superior side quests and free form explore like I did in Morrowind.
_________________
"For Innos!" |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:16 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
Same here. After the character for the review, I started a new one, and completely ignore the main quest. Hell, I even enjoy idleness in the game - when for about 20 minutes, nothing happens, and I only move from A to B through a cleared region, I still enjoy what is presented to me.
BTW, I also agree that Oblivion has a lot of flaws, as I pointed them out in my review. But, VD, this game is one of the rare instances where, at least for me, it doesn't matter.
Take a shitty guitarist, a so-so bassist, an inferior drummer and a rather weak vocalist, mix it with not so inspired songs and lyrics, and get one of the best bands in the world: Rolling Stones. Things like that happen.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:14 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by .Twinfalls
Moriendor: Two things about the quotes. Firstly, they are all genuine quotes from Bethesda developers. They were all made in interviews, at various stages during the game's development (Todd Howard's comment about 'riding around on horses killing stuff' is the oldest one. The others are from the past months).
Secondly, and more importantly: You feel that it is unfair to call developers to task on quotes they make well before the game is finished. Well, in this case, it is completely fair.
Because this is Bethesda we're talking about. Not just any developer, but a company with a proven track record of deliberately misleading hype (Fargoth's Gold, the Bookseller), self-important bloviating, and an incredibly arrogant attitude towards fans of the series and toward the game-world it inherited from the people who did all the original work (Bethesda under Peterson/LeFay).
Would you equally say it is unfair to call Lionhead and Molyneux out for the promises made about Fable before it's release? Of course not, it sold a truckload off the back of the hype they deliberately generated.
So stop being such a bleeding heart.
OK, fine, then name a major developer/publisher (not an indy dev, of course) WITHOUT a "proven track record of deliberately misleading hype".
You are not seriously trying to tell me that you are taking everything that some company says at face value, are you? No, you're not. You're more intelligent than that.
Come on, we all know that most of the stuff that companies spread pre-release is complete and utter bullshit. From the announcement of the game to press releases to interview to previews... bullshit, bullshit and even more bullshit, hype, drivel, hypocrisy, and lies.
And you know it. So please stop playing dumb and stop acting as if it was some sort of super-surprise that Oblivion didn't deliver on all of the stuff that Bethesda "promised" prior to the game's release. No game in the world delivers on what the devs or publishers "promise". No game.
Hell, most games don't even have all of the features that are listed on the box or the website of the game.
That's why I don't think it's quite appropriate to "artificially" play dumb and blind and to compare PR quotes to what the game delivered in the end. Just doesn't make sense. No game in the world can live up to the hyped crap that a good PR firm will try to make you/us believe.
Sure, it is unfortunate that pre-release material has zero credibility but that's just the way it is nowadays; and has been for a while. It's not like Bethesda invented "lying" in order to boost sales. Everyone's doing it. |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:47 pm |
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Kraszu
Village Dweller
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 7
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quote:
RPGCodex isn't biased. For some reason the site has become religious over the last few years. I has adopted the elitism of a fanatical small religious group that thinks it has found the truth. And as these groups tend to behave, they become aggressive, rude and ill-behaved in order to defend themselves against, like RPGCodex calls them, "the mass of dumb fuckhead kiddie gamers".
I didn't cnow that you can argue whit religious fanatics, rpgcodex hawe one of the most open for debate forum. I don't see haw they agrresive exept for vulgar words also. |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:48 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
Hey Moriendor,
I'm struggling here - I can't remember the name of the game - but I read this on the back of the box:
"...has the most engaging, immersive gameplay we've seen in years"
"...best of E3"
"...believe the hype - this is the real deal"
You know whats really amazing? It wasnt even a Bethesda title! I know I'm astonished too - I thought hype was patented by Bethesda. You learn something new every day. So then I started looking on the back of other boxes and guess what I saw?
Dungeon Lords "Best of E3".
I bought it! Heck it said "best of E3" and since it wasnt Bethesda it can't be hype and must be true. 
_________________
"For Innos!" |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:06 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
Hey Moriendor,
I'm struggling here - I can't remember the name of the game - but I read this on the back of the box:
"...has the most engaging, immersive gameplay we've seen in years"
"...best of E3"
"...believe the hype - this is the real deal"
You know whats really amazing? It wasnt even a Bethesda title! I know I'm astonished too - I thought hype was patented by Bethesda. You learn something new every day. So then I started looking on the back of other boxes and guess what I saw?
Dungeon Lords "Best of E3".
I bought it! Heck it said "best of E3" and since it wasnt Bethesda it can't be hype and must be true.
 ... yes, Dungeon Lords would be the perfect example that 'You can't polish a turd' is actually a false statement. |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:18 pm |
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.Twinfalls
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
I bought it! Heck it said "best of E3" and since it wasnt Bethesda it can't be hype and must be true.
Wow, you really are stupid. Nobody else here is suggesting hype by any other company 'must be true'.
Thanks for that demonstration, though.
@Moriendor: So others do it to. So what? The Codex called Dung Lords out for its hype, and it's called The Witcher out for its hype.
It's all in proportion. Bethesda happens to have hogged the most hype-limelight with Oblivion, over the past year - and not by accident. So they get their hype poured back on them in proportion.
Bethesda also gets special mention for taking a great RPG series (Daggerfall era TES) and turning it to dumbed down non-RPG silliness, all the while promising a return to quality role-playing.
So it's all peachy and fair  |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:36 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
quote:
Originally posted by .Twinfalls
Wow, you really are stupid....
Hey FYI this is RPGDot not Codex. Take your insults to Codex where they are welcome, encouraged and led by example.
_________________
"For Innos!" |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:52 pm |
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.Twinfalls
Guest
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Oh come on, Todd - if you don't want to be called stupid, don't post a jibe that makes you look stupid
This hardly qualifies as a 'Codex insult' anyway - heck, it's a practically a nice warm hug by comparison. |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:10 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
quote:
Originally posted by .Twinfalls
Oh come on, Todd - if you don't want to be called stupid, don't post a jibe that makes you look stupid
This hardly qualifies as a 'Codex insult' anyway - heck, it's a practically a nice warm hug by comparison.
you hater joo da Codex p0w3rg4murz!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111
LOL LOL LOL !!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111111111111
(I just wanted to make sure we could relate )
_________________
"For Innos!" |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:32 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
It's no suprise that this is still going on, as it will for probably another ten pages 
..so while I'm here at work and bored anyway I might as well jump in paws-first for a little frolic and frivolity myself. My problem with the Codex and reason I have never joined it, and prefer RPGdot instead, is that this place is, for lack of a better term, fun. It's fun to come here and talk about games we like. Maybe they all arent strictly adhering to some time-honored purist RPG code of ethics, perhaps they arent all some deep quasi-religious RPG experiences, but theyre fun RPG games. People surely get bummed, sure I have railed on Oblivion a bit myself, nobody's expectations are going to be always met, but we are overall not a dour bunch here. Yeah, some things piss me off about most games, but the overall experience is entertaining, and I certainly aint losing any sleep over it.
Sit around gnashing your teeth about all the little nuances, missed opportunities, and bullet points on your lists, it shouldnt come as any suprise that the assumption that youre a cynical lot, whose opinions should be approached with caution, is pretty much how youre being viewed by everyone else. Perhaps made fun of to some degree as well, because you come off as a bunch of little old ladies at times. Have some fun, make that a bullet point on your checklist for once, it aint the end of the world already.
Youre never going to find your RPG Shangri-La, so you might as well move on to a new hobby or something if this all troubles you to the point you cannot enjoy it anymore 
As far as Todd's "quote context" criticism, the only one I see that sticks out at me is the dubious use of the out of context quote here:
quote:
"The player needs a certain size and a large number of choices to really make role-playing feel meaningful"-Todd Howard
I sorta remember this Todd Howard interview, and looking it up now, it was regarding the breadth and scope of the entire world and gameplay experience, not the number of branches on some dialogue tree. Certainly I guess that is part of it, but there's more to roleplaying, and this quote.
quote:
GS: Tell us about what Bethesda is trying to accomplish with The Elder Scrolls IV. Will the next game expand upon the huge and open-ended framework of Morrowind, which let you travel pretty much anywhere and talk to (or fight) pretty much anyone, or will it feature a completely different structure? What lessons has the team taken from Morrowind's development, launch, and postlaunch support? How is this being brought to bear in the new game's development?
Todd Howard: All of our Elder Scrolls games follow a similar philosophy: "Live another life, in another world." With each game, we go back and look at how we can make that come alive for the next generation of hardware and gameplay. So the "big-world, do-anything" style remains, and I think that's an essential element to what we do with the series. The player needs a certain size and a large number of choices to really make role-playing feel meaningful. Lessons we learned? I think we learned that taking risks works. We took a lot of risks in changing our game systems to create Morrowind. Also bringing it to the Xbox was a big risk for us. Both of those paid off huge, particularly the Xbox, which is where the majority of our sales came from. I think a lot of publishers really underestimate how much a console player wants out of game, and how much they can handle. They're not stupid, and they love deep games done well. So going into this one, we knew we wanted to reinvent a lot of the game again, take on big technology jumps, and bring the game to as many platforms as possible.
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:20 pm |
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VD
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
As far as Todd's "quote context" criticism, the only one I see that sticks out at me is the dubious use of the out of context quote here:
quote:
"The player needs a certain size and a large number of choices to really make role-playing feel meaningful"-Todd Howard
I remember this one, and looking it up now, it was regarding the scope of the entire world and gameplay experience, not the number of branches on some dialogue tree. Certainly I guess that is part of it, but there's more to roleplaying, and this quote.
So? What's out of context and why did you bring up dialogue trees? Have I criticized the lack of or expected dialogue trees? No, it's not that kind of game, and I've played all TES games to know what's reasonable to expect.
Yes, role-playing is not all about dialogue trees, but it's not present in Oblivion. I illustrated it with this screenshot:
http://www.rpgcodex.com/images/news/Quest%201.JPG
As you can see I wasn't given much choice here, other than accepting a quest. From that moment everything was decided for me. I couldn't join the gang, I couldn't blackmail them, I couldn't fall for their trick, and I couldn't convince them to return what they've taken and surrender to the nearby authorities. So, what role-playing? |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:35 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
I'm saying that from what it appears, your dialogue, interaction with NPCs regarding quests, quests themselves, etc., these "choices" you either make or dont make that youre referring to within the context of this quest, is not what the quote was about, from what I'm seeing. He's asked basically, will the game still be about open-ended running around fighting, talking, exploring, etc. freely.
question: "Will the next game expand upon the huge and open-ended framework of Morrowind, which let you travel pretty much anywhere and talk to (or fight) pretty much anyone, or will it feature a completely different structure?"
To which he replies-
answer: "All of our Elder Scrolls games follow a similar philosophy: "Live another life, in another world." With each game, we go back and look at how we can make that come alive for the next generation of hardware and gameplay. So the "big-world, do-anything" style remains, and I think that's an essential element to what we do with the series. The player needs a certain size and a large number of choices to really make role-playing feel meaningful.
He's talking about cruising around either doing mundane quests or the main quest, or dungeons, or just exploring or looking at your reflection in a lake. Roleplaying, "playing your role" and doing what you want with your time is what he's talking about. Your screenshots and comments imply something else, and that's not what he meant by that quote. His quote is right, you are able to choose what you want to do in the expansive world, you are narrowing it down to actions within some quest, he's referring to the "big picture", if you will.
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:31 pm |
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Shevchyk
Guest
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"[Y]ou are able to choose what you want to do in the expansive world."
Logical Conclusion: I should be able to engage bandits in a discussion on venture capital in a pseudo-medieval world. Rather than just have them see me and my invisible bullseye that marks me as a target in their radar system.
Furthermore, I want to own a blacksmith shoppe, and make swords.
There'a tavern wench. I'd like to engage in coital affairs with her STAT.
Finally, I'd like to bake some bread.
My wisdom-o-meter suggests that computer gamers as a whole are not going to be able to have a serious discussion about this game until we agree to a shared set of terms that defines what an RPG is and what it is not. Until then, we're working with a loose set of concepts that vary per person.
Which is good for comedy. If that's what this thread is aiming for. |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:00 pm |
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