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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
quote:
Originally posted by Shevchyk
"[Y]ou are able to choose what you want to do in the expansive world."
Logical Conclusion: I should be able to engage bandits in a discussion on venture capital in a pseudo-medieval world. Rather than just have them see me and my invisible bullseye that marks me as a target in their radar system.
Furthermore, I want to own a blacksmith shoppe, and make swords.
There'a tavern wench. I'd like to engage in coital affairs with her STAT.
Finally, I'd like to bake some bread.
My wisdom-o-meter suggests that computer gamers as a whole are not going to be able to have a serious discussion about this game until we agree to a shared set of terms that defines what an RPG is and what it is not. Until then, we're working with a loose set of concepts that vary per person.
Which is good for comedy. If that's what this thread is aiming for.
Absolutely, we need to make a "Define RPG Thread" and decide the rules! Yeeha! You think this thread is gonna be a long one...
But I like your idea tho, I have uh, always wanted to be a blacksmith 
But your correct, this thread is ultimately aimed for comedy because in the first place, people take this stuff so seriously. My direct quote context thingy is a little sorta poke in the ribs in jest to the otherwise literalist VD and crowd who want to make everything regarding RPG otherwise cut and dry, crunch the facts and only the facts ma'am. Buy the rulebook. Were talkin' RPGs here, serious stuff, no room for error.
Now we have a willy nilly quote that's open to interpretation, a Codex review which targets it based on something it really isnt targeting it based on, I guess. I think this is a sign of the RPG apocalypse! Maybe the name Oblivion is a sign in itself!
Now we must define "role-playing", my god, what madness hath Sam wrought????
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:12 am |
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Shevchyk
Guest
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Well it is serious in that we have to take a few things into consideration:
a) financial investment by would-be players.
i) particularly, RPG players.
b) Following some sort of legacy and/or tradition as established by previous ES games.
c) Time investment
These are just off the top of my head; there could be others.
Regardless, dismissing any criticism on the basis of "it's taken too seriously" isn't in my mind an actual argument, but rather a means by which to either a) ignore the argument or b) attempt to discredit it. Neither one is terribly conductive to a sane and rational argument.
That said, I'm still a little mystified by the posts here. Having read the review of ES4 at RPGC, I'm a little curious as to what exactly the problem is. I've seen the word "bias" bandied about like it was actually some kind of actual criticism - and it's not. Everything, and everyone, has a bias. Readers have to simply get over this fact as fast as humanly (or orcishly/elvishly/pick your poison) possible, and attend to the quality of the argument made, rather than the mere presence of a critical argument.
Now I'm not convinced ES4 is an RPG. Not in any formal sense. But I'm of the impression that many so-called RPGs are not actually rpgs but in fact hack 'n slash/fpshooters dressed up in faux-rpg clothing. Claiming that one has implemented stats and customisation into a game is not an argument that is going to convince me if the claim being made is that said game is an RPG.
What exactly makes an RPG - this is something about which I'm more than happy to discuss, should there be an interest in the subject. However, before we even get to that, I would like to point out in conjunction with the almost uniform praise for ES4:
When Daikatana was finally released, the tone and grading of most (Danger Will Robinson: a generalisation!) reviews was quite negative and insulting, and no one seems to mind. Yet the attempt by a writer at RPGC to make some critical (and snarky!) comments regarding ES4 has resulted in criticism by others for being one-sided.
I have a sincere heartfelt desire to call "foul" - and maybe even "hypocrites!" should I be in a foul-enough mood. That hasn't happened yet. I would like to shed light on this disparity of thought, as I think it might be useful in illuminating the way in which critical analysis works in the field of videogame journalism.
Cheers,
Shevchyk |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:28 am |
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Dajjer
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 49
Location: Los Angeles area |
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
Okay fine, he's not on staff here, BTW, why the hell does he have RPG Dot Logo?
As for the comment, well it's more from fustration than from wanting to target RPG Dot, I mean after you ask a well worded question like 3 or 4 times and all you get is the run around wouldn't you get fustrated - at a certain point it's easier to insult some one for being stupid than to try and debate with them. In case you didn't know, I do have a lot of respect for you and the work you do, so if you want an apology you've got it.
Wait a minute, your are calling me stupid. You are so funny on so many levels. And yes I am not a staffer and have never pretended to be one. But I'm on a mission now and I guess I gotta go find me a overglowing postive review of Oblivion and trash it and then I get street cred with the codex folks. Silly me  |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:51 am |
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Shevchyk
Guest
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"I gotta go find me a overglowing postive review of Oblivion and trash it and then I get street cred with the codex folks."
That's not at all what you need to do. This isn't a question of "trashing" or "not trashing" X/Y/Z game. This is not a question of reputation. What's sought after by at least some of the writers of RPGCodex* (if not all of them) is a desire to see more videogame journalists/critics think critically, rather than pandering to either a) the designers of a particular game, b) a perceived crowd of fans whose adoration has gotten out of hand to such a degree that they have difficulty in acknowledging the faults present in a given videogame, c) ad payers. Furthermore, they wish to see players exhibit a bit more critical thought when buying or playing any particular game, to acknowledge the flaws and inconsistencies between what was promised by the developers and what the final product was.
Their basic, core desire is to see audiences exhibit an increase in critical thinking and audiences and critics alike to show a little more intellectual honesty about a given product.
*I do not speak for them, and am merely expressing my interpretation of their thoughts and actions thus far. |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:13 am |
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Father Omally
Guest
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The way of the humble is filled with completeness of quality truth my gaming Brothers and Sisters. The way of the hype is filled with greed and much deception.A low mileage life of sin.So it is written.Preach it dear Rpg codex! Preach it!  |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:29 am |
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.Twinfalls
Guest
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And I doth repeat myself:
Verily, Father, thou art a hoot! I urge thee join the good Codex, for though their mouths issue bile, their links be goatsed, and they are wont to cudgel the dumbfucke, their hearts are but pure!
Thy flock awaits! |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:40 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
quote:
Originally posted by .Twinfalls
And I doth repeat myself:
Verily, Father, thou art a hoot! I urge thee join the good Codex, for though their mouths issue bile, their links be goatsed, and they are wont to cudgel the dumbfucke, their hearts are but pure!
Thy flock awaits!
You know if you really can take these folks away to Codex then folks at RPGDot will really love you.
_________________
"For Innos!" |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:46 pm |
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.Twinfalls
Guest
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Look buddy - I'm trying to acquire us a priest, and you're not helping any. |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:34 pm |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
quote:
Originally posted by .Twinfalls
Look buddy - I'm trying to acquire us a priest, and you're not helping any.
Of course, if Oblivion were a *real* RPG, you could just roll yourself one, apply some 'Radiant AI' and his realism would come right out of the screen and he could participate on the forums ...
_________________
Dopelar effect (n.) The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Check out my blog. |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:38 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
Funny - now that ES4 has tons of action its being accused of not being an RPG. I'll admit that the dialog trees are a major shortcoming, but lets not forget the obvious RPG features:
- Race selection including vampire options
- Guild selections, thieves, assassins
- Clothing selection, armor, ethetics
- Wide range of weapon selections
- merchantile options
- crafting
- extensive magic system
- alchemy
_________________
"For Innos!" |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:19 pm |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
quote:
Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
Funny - now that ES4 has tons of action its being accused of not being an RPG.
Was there anything, anywhere in my post that could cause it to be confused with something serious? Or was that just referencing the more common complaints that some have with the game?
_________________
Dopelar effect (n.) The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Check out my blog. |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:27 pm |
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Shevchyk
Guest
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My memories of RPGs extend to a period when technology was not the focal point of design, and the games required players to make ethical choices, and suffer the consequences of those decisions. And there were casts. With memorable charaters. FFIII (or VI in Japan). PST. Ultima VII. Chrono Trigger (a remake may be on the way!). Fallout. Dragon Quest. Hell, even the more recent (and delightful) Anachronox.
It does not seem to me to be a terribly worthwhile experience to play an RPG if the developers cannot even get me to care about anything aside from being some kind of munchkin and/or monty styled gamer. While hack and slash has its place, it does not seem to provide for a very emotionally enriching experience. It's like a diet-rpg experience, you see.
But this is coming from the Story First school of thought. |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:47 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
quote:
Originally posted by Shevchyk
...Now I'm not convinced ES4 is an RPG. Not in any formal sense. But I'm of the impression that many so-called RPGs are not actually rpgs but in fact hack 'n slash/fpshooters dressed up in faux-rpg clothing. Claiming that one has implemented stats and customisation into a game is not an argument that is going to convince me if the claim being made is that said game is an RPG.
Sorry txa1265, I was responding to the quote above actually.
And also Shevchyk, you are missing the point of Morrowind and Oblivion. The ES games are about "living" in the world, not about a grand plot. Morrowind was the same way. Afterall, in real life there is no plot per se. Sandbox gaming.
_________________
"For Innos!" |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:08 pm |
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.Twinfalls
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
lets not forget the obvious RPG features:
quote:
- Race selection including vampire options
Are there significant differences between races in terms of abilities? Do they even look much different from the head down?
quote:
- Guild selections, thieves, assassins
Are there meaningful decisions to make about which Guilds to join? Or can you join them all? Do they ever conflict (as for example a Fighters and an Assassin's guild should?) Does doing certain quests for one guild see rival guilds send assassins to kill you? (as happened in Daggerfall)?
quote:
- Clothing selection, armor
Can you wear your clothing with your armour?
quote:
Wide range of weapon selections
Do skill perks vary at all between melee weapons? Does it really matter whether you have an axe or mace or sword or dagger?
Can you develop a specific ability in two-handed sword wielding, or in faster re-load of a bow, to differentiate your character from others, for example?
quote:
merchantile options
Which are what?
Is 'investing in stores' (as the sole extension of the mercantile skill) really about investing, or is it just a way of increasing the amount a store will spend on one item (even though they always have infinite gold)?
quote:
crafting
What crafting? Can you forge swords like you could in Gothic?
quote:
extensive magic system
Which allow real strategy in battles, or just another form of shoot-and-dodge?
quote:
alchemy
Which is available to every character, so no decision needs to be made, again? |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:23 pm |
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.Twinfalls
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
Morrowind was the same way. Afterall, in real life there is no plot per se. Sandbox gaming.
But Daggerfall was not 'the same way'. Daggerfall had a true, grand plot, which was mature and sophisticated and full of political intrigue. It also had multiple paths.
Morrowind's plot was linear and trite (you are the Chosen One!!), but it at least had quite a bit of interesting political intrigue and lore behind it.
Oblivion's plot........oh well. |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:28 pm |
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