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| Who would win Mercs or Paladins |
| Merceneries |
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58% |
[ 14 ] |
| Paladins |
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41% |
[ 10 ] |
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| Total Votes : 24 |
Dart23
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 32
Location: Far away |
We all know that in chapter 2 or 3 when Bennet is captured for murdering Lothar the mercenaries wanted to attack the city and get Bennet out. Now I started thinking that could they actually do that and I don't think so. But to confirm it I counted all Paladins, Militias and Mercenaries and the result is: 26 Militias, 35 Paladins in the city and only 23 Mercenaries in Onars farm.
Plus you have to remember that Daron and Vatras are also in the city and I don't think that they would just ignore it if the mercenaries would slaughter the militia. Plus there are several citizen's in the city who can fight.
Like Alrik, Bosber, Harad, Regis... So the mercenaries wouldn't stand a chance against the armies of the city. Not to mention if the mercenaries would kill Daron. Then the Mages would join the fight as well.
But ofcoarse this is only my theory.
Note: I counted the soldiers in chapter 1 and they might not be 100% accuret.
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Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:18 pm |
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Jabberwocky
Noble Knight
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 208
Location: New York, USA |
For some reason I wasn't given an option to vote on your poll. Did you close it already?
Anyway, I think that simply crunching the numbers, you are probably right. That's also probably why Lee's plan was to wait and starve them out.
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Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:25 pm |
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titus
Survivor of Hell
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 778
Location: Standing at the Hell mouth |
I think the pallys would lose, you have to keep in mind, most of the mercs were ex-convincts so real cutthroats who wer used to heavy fights. and the mages in town wouldn't interfear and a lot of citizens who an fight will rather not fight. The ers wouldn't fight in town but lure the pallys out of the town 
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Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:55 pm |
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jmurdock
Old Fogey
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 1285
Location: the heart of acadiana they like to call it |
You're talking about just the city, right? Assuming that weapons NPCs have are equipped, most of the mercs have at least a bow, that ought to even the odds some. Ruga is the only one I've seen with a bow or xbow. Depending on the "operation", the paladins (except for Andre of course), might ignore the whole mess. If they enter through the east gate and ignore the civilians, they might have a chance. And even if the Paladins join in, once the mercs take the garrison, they ought to be able to hold it for a while anyway.
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Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:58 pm |
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Yamcha
Noble Knight
Joined: 01 May 2004
Posts: 224
Location: Mirna Pec, blizu Novega mesta, Slovenia |
I think they would have a chance saving Bennet, but taking the whole city, I don't think so. You would need a great Military mastermind which I think Lee is, but let's not forget Lord Andre and Hagen, they aren't Myrtanas finest for no reason. jmurdock I think you're right about the bows eveninh the odds, but that would work only with the militia (paladins have tough armor). And there's the armor, I haven't seen one Dragon Hunter (except Gorm) at Onars farm, and merc have losy armour compared to the paladins.
The only chance for merc would be luring the paladins in the VoM and to close the passage, paladins would surely die, even with Lord Hagen. But luring the paladins isn't such an easy job. Ofcourse they want the ore, but what good is the ore without a transportation device (ship), so they would leave some paladins behind. Lord Andre would surely stay and those paladins on the ship.
My final anwser is: Paladins have 90 % to defend the city.
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Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:47 pm |
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NeoCodex
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 30 May 2004
Posts: 187
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Hm... The question is in wich chapter would this had happened? IMO the mercenaries don't stand a chance in early acts. even with a few dragon hunters, they wouldn't be doing any better.
Keep in mind those paladin runes. At least every is equiped with a holy arrow rune if not even more powerful one. that does a lot more damage than a bow and is more accurate too. they also have those healing runes. and there are many more paladins than mercenaries.
so if you ask me, if paladins intervene in the figt, mercs don't stand a slightest chance.
but that wasn't lee's plan anyway. if they wait until act 5-6 when the paladins leave the city, I think they have pretty good chances to win. altough there are a few cutthroats among the mercenaries there are also a lot of newbies and some of them are stoned all the time anyway and they wouldn't be able to fight  |
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Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:00 pm |
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Whailor
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 423
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
If looking at the statistic side, then Lee would have zero chance of taking over the city. Yes, a sneaky quiet sudden operation at night to free the Bennet would have worked and be successful, if done well, but open war on the city would wipe the mercs out. Mercs, literally most of them, are no professional fighters. They're just some cuthroats or poor farmers or whatever, who got into the trouble with the law and were thrown into colony in G1. At the same time, paladins are carefully selected people, best from the militia, who already had extensive training as a militia and after that, have been even more trained under paladins. They have significally better skills, equipment and truckloads of more combat experience then 95% of mercenaries. Militia is a joke in general, but paladins would simply wipe out the mercs.
Of course, none of the sides can afford such open confrontation and war, because that would reduce the numbers of both sides and cripple them both. So while the tensions run high, there would never really be open fights a la mercs vs. the city, because none of the sides can afford it. Also, quite many in the city would join the paladins and magicians would join too, at least Fire Magicians.
So yeah, if there would be open warfare, the paladins would win. With losses, but still would win. Lee is very good general and a legend, so to say, but so is Hagen, and both Lee and Hagen know that and respect each other, and also understand their situation. Hagen knows he has the power to wipe out the mercs, but he knows also that he'd take losses at that and he simply cannot afford any losses anymore, so he holds and stays in the city. Lee knows that he has no chances whatsoever in open war against paladins, but he also knows that he has the resources the city needs, also, if paladins would attack the farm, they could scatter and later become the thorn in the side of the paladins, as the paladins do not have the numbers to control both the city AND the Onar's farm.
Hanging Bennet is just a sign from Hagen, telling that "See, the situation may be sucky in general, but I am still the law here and call the shots, in the city anyway, and no one can do anything about it". But, at least, he's honorable and doesn't want to punish Bennet out of spite, but because he thinks he's guilty. This of course shows that Hagen isn't much of a detective, either 
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Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:19 pm |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
quote:
Originally posted by titus
I think the pallys would lose, you have to keep in mind, most of the mercs were ex-convincts so real cutthroats who wer used to heavy fights. and the mages in town wouldn't interfear and a lot of citizens who an fight will rather not fight. The mercs wouldn't fight in town but lure the pallys out of the town
Exactly, those paladins might have shiny armor but the have never seen a real war. (I know they came from the mainland with Lord Hagen, but the best paladins already died in the orc war, the rest are just wimps).
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Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:16 pm |
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NeoCodex
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 30 May 2004
Posts: 187
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But they are still way better than the mercs. as Whailor allready said, those people are TRAINED very well and I agree with that. those cuttroaths from the colony don't stand a chance against the best royal troops. altough those knights aren't the best of the best, but they are still knights. and they had to go trough a lot to reach that rank. so in my opinion, they are much more experienced and have better equipment. the best armor and ore swords combined with the magic of the runes.
no matter how bad those cuttroaths from the colony are, they don't stand a chance against the paladins. |
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Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:27 pm |
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Jabberwocky
Noble Knight
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 208
Location: New York, USA |
People, people... We all know what kind of things WE had to accomplish to get into the militia and then paladins. And joining the merc's was no walk in the park either. I'm saying that if all of these other jokers had to do something similar to what WE had to do in order to become what they are, then they're nothing to sneeze at - either side!
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Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:49 pm |
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NeoCodex
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 30 May 2004
Posts: 187
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We're talking about it philosophicaly. it's true that every citizen is accepted into town and most of the don't have "the guts" as they say but anyway I was talking about paladins, those people have years of training behind them and are certainly better fighters.
come on, those convicts from VoM were doing nothing there, specialy the rouges. all that they were doing was smoking weed, drinking rice schnaps in the tavern and intimidate peasants from time to time. and mercenaries couldn't have been the best fighters too, they've still lost their mine. surprise attack or not. |
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Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:57 pm |
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jmurdock
Old Fogey
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 1285
Location: the heart of acadiana they like to call it |
Have you possessed any of the mercs? I have, was curious about levels etc. Most of them are at least 30 at 1 or 2H and as far as level, most at least level 10. Wouldn't be surprised to find out paladins same way.
Someone mentioned paladin spells, but they don't work against something not inherently evil. I accidently threw one at one of the militia on the wall in VoM, and although they got mad at me for throwing it, it did no damage.
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Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:59 pm |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
Just to let you all know that the obvious answer is not always the right answer. I just saw a special on Discovery Channel about the battle of Agincourt. 6000-7000 Englishmen (mostly longbowmen, about 5000) were up against 20000 heavily armored French knights on horsebacks (templars) and soldiers.
The English were outnumbered, didn't have serious cavalary and the French had far more superior armor adn weapons. All the French were wearing steel while most of the English were only wearing textile and leather. To make things worse the English longbowmen were shooting with arrows with steel tips, but these arrows couldn't penetrate the steel plates of teh French armor.
Flashforward: The French army was slaughtered!
Many reason were giving for this strange event. Of course it was a combination of factors.
First the Horsemen were sent. The knights were virtually immune to the arrows from the longbowmen, but their horses weren't. The knights wore the latest armor, but the horses didn't. The horses were shot down with a deadly end for the templars. A fall from a horse with such a weight of armor was in most cases enough to kill the soldiers.
So they sent the soldiers on foot. The French army consisted of Nobelmen with their troops. These rivalling warlords weren't listening to the leading marshal and went their own way and disobeyed orders.
The main reason for wars in the middle ages was money. Most nobelmen didn't kill there victims on the battlefield. Important persons were worth a lot of money and many hostages were taken. To know which soldiers could bring in money, they studied heraldry, so they knew from the coat of arms whether the soldier was worth the trouble. The french wanted the money and went for the soldiers and didn't pay any attention to the archers, these weren't worth anything. Also the french followed an etiquette: only people form about the same class would attack eachother, so nobles against nobles etc. But the longbowmen didn't care for any etiquette and started shooting the nobles, they didn't care for money, they just wanted to survive. The french became confused by the sudden attack of the archers. Longbowmen were very flexibel warriors, they used daggers and hammers in addition to bows and in this battle they killed way more french with those dagger and hammers than with their bows.
But how can it be that they massively armoured French soldiers were overrun by lightly armoured archers with daggers? The surprise-effect couldn't possibly do the trick.
The day before the battle it had rain very hard and long. The soil of the battlefield was very misleading. It seemed dry but in fact a lot of water was sucked up and it turned into a muddy field with an enormous suction. A knights that wanted to pull his leg out of the mud would have to overcome a suction, that felt like another 15 kilos strapped around the ankle. However suction is mass-depended, so everybody would have the same trouble. Uhm, no. The suction isn't weight-depended indeed, but it is material-depended. The steel plates from the French's armor experienced a lot of suction, while the clothing (textiles) from the English longbowmen hardly experienced any suction. So the archers were much faster and had a serious advantage.
But still there were far more French soldiers than English longbowmen. They were heavily outnumbered.
The final reason: The war was fought on a plateau in the shape of a funnel. The English had occupied the small side and the French came from the open grounds on the other end. The French needed to get trough the funnel, in combination with the mud and soldiers falling and sinking in the mud it had the result that the French armies lost mostly all of their speed and came very thinned out through the funnel. A lot of soldiers couldn't get through and the few that came trough were almost alone and an easy target for the dagger-wielding longbowmen.
So strength of numbers and superior armor (what we see at the paladins) doesn't necessarily mean victory. The mercenaries can be compared to the longbowmen. Most of the mercenaries have bows and a sword, the paladins only swords.
Of course this doesn't mean that the mercenaries would win everytime, but you can't just say that the paladin's have better armor and are with more and so they will always win.
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Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:02 pm |
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Mercenary
Helpful Friend
Joined: 25 Nov 2002
Posts: 2874
Location: Chromanin |
Let's think :
Lee was the best of the best in King's army. (He was a general). General leading a force isn't nothing.
Gorn who easily fights many orcs. (While orcs slaughter knights and paladins - not always but they do.)
Cord is an experienced swordmaster.
Lares is in the city and could gain some allies from the inside.
The hero (depends on which side he would be) could change the course of fight on each side.
Let's not forget Torlof, Cipher, Buster, and other mercenaries who aren't very strong but they can still make damage.
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Lord Hagen and Andre are strong and other main paladins like Ingmar and that but they are concentrated in the upper quarter. Lares could easily convince the harbour district too follow the mercs and with no major racket they could take the barracks. On the other side Daron is corrupted and could be bought. Same is with most of traders. Looking on game if you manage to convince Canthar your on his good side he could easily turn traders against city. While in barracks Mercs could easily dress up as militia and infiltrate the upper quarter. Besides if all bandits outside the city united and attacked they could do damage too, same for thieves guild. Xardas could be convinced to help them too and that would deal them enough blow that there would be no more paladins in the city ...
My point of view : Mercenaries win ... 
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Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:25 pm |
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Dart23
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 32
Location: Far away |
One thing first: Xardas wouldn't join the fight and if he did he would fight WITH the PALADINS. Because he needs their help. We all know what Xardas said in the begin "This time we can't do it on our own. We need the help of the PALADINS." or something like that. He said to work with the paladins not to murder all of them with mercs. Second the city is protected with creat walls and YES the militia has xbows and bows they just don't have them with them. Think about it the city isn't that big. Before they could even reload their bows someone would strike them already with a sword. I don't think that the mercs could even get in to the city. The guards would just lock the gates and get their xbows for battle or something. And why would the merchants fight against their FRIENDS. They live in the city they have friends. Do you think that after they betrayed their friends and killed all the militia and the fighting back citizens they could watch how the women cry for their murdered husbands their friends. I don't think so. As for the harbour don't forget that they are just poor suckers and that there are dozens of knights there.
And if you still think that the mercs would win read this "The 'Esmeralda' is at your disposal. Take one hundred of your best warriors and sail for Khorinis. You shall not return unless the ship's hold is brim-full with ore.
There is no time to waste; head out immediately." It took this phrase from gothic2.com offical story. Thats what the king said to Lord Hagen before he left to Khorinis. He said BEST WARRIORS not ROOKIES. And if you still think that the paladins had not ever seen a war read this "Soon after, an exhausted warrior entered the throne room. Like most of the other soldiers he hadn't slept in days, and nothing but iron discipline kept him on his feet." The "exhausted warrior" was Lord Hagen this phrase was just before the fisrt one. Now do you think he doesn't sleep because he thinks its fun NO he and his warriors have been fighting very hard. So the Paladins would win
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Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:17 pm |
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