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Arms Of Dirt
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 21
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| Dungeon Siege Frustrations |
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Having played DS for many, many (MANY!) hours now both in single and multi-player modes... I've developed a 'Love/Hate' relationship with the game. I love it's graphics... and the smooth, slick way I can interact with the world...It's very immersive in that regard... and I love all the artwork that was painstakingly done on all the different items in the game... In short, the game intially sucks you in with it's sheer scope and beauty of the surroundings...
But once you get past the sizzle, and into the steak... Well, it's just not as delicious as it seemed on the grill.
Here's one frustration (And possible spoiler!)
The Meriks Staff quest.
You are searching for Meriks staff... HIS staff... that HE owns, stolen from him for evil purposes... Yet, once you find it... he cannot equip and use HIS staff... Why? He doesn't have the intelligence to use it!! When I saw that he couldn't use HIS staff... I literally burst out loud laughing over the sheer short sightedness of the design... It's not like he's 'close' to being able to use it... I mean, he's like 5 points away from the requisite intelligence required to use his own staff... so it's not like he could level up fast enough between the time you find him, and the time you find his staff, to enable him to use it. And, you can't sell the staff, either... so if you have no characters at Intelligence level 28 by the time you find the staff, it will clutter up your inventory unless you drop it on the ground...(which rather defeats the purpose of having found it) ... I've seen no indicator that you NEED this staff later in the game... (and I'm well past Fortress Kroth at this point, playing on 'Normal' level) so dropping it to save space becomes a valid option... even if it is counter-intuitive.
Speaking of counter-intuitive...
Why, oh why, are the spells and mana usage system so counterintuitive?
Here's an example:
I am a Sorcerer, who has been casting Summon Darkling for ages. I go up in Combat Magic skill... which one would assume to be a good thing, as increasing in levels lets one achieve more, right?
Wrong...
Because of the way mana quantity is tied to intelligence, and NOT to my Combat or Nature Magic skills, I suddenly find my Sorcerer unable to cast a spell that he was perfectly capable of casting seconds before, all because I INCREASED in levels! This is not only most unrealistic (What Mage would get 'better' only to find himself suddenly unable to cast spells he'd been casting for ages, as a direct result of his improvement?) it is also most annoying. Since intellect does not rise in proportion to Combat or Nature magic skills... adventurers are forced to use a less powerful spell than they were JUST using, all because they went UP in levels! And, if they happened to go 'up' in the middle of a large area with no nearby shops to (hopefully, by luck of the draw) purchase something to add sufficiently to mana, they are effectively forced to use some other form of attack for the remainder of their journey. If their next best attack is non-magical, they'll have no hope of increasing their intelligence enough to gain the mana required to cast the spell they just lost due to them going up in levels... And since intelligence, even when using spells exclusively, goes up woefully slow... they will be unable to cast their favorite spell for quite some time... All because they were foolish enough to think that going up in levels was a good thing... But in this game... it seems not to be the case.
If the character is already maxed out on items that are adding to mana (I happen to have 4 rings, all adding at least 20 or more to mana, a spellbook adding over 50 to mana, and a shield and boots, both adding to Intelligence, plus a weapon that's adding 35 to mana) and they happen to 'go up' in Combat Magic... they are really screwed by the game system... because they cannot cast the very spell they require most in order to increase their intelligence, and therefore, obtain enough mana to cast the spell they 'lost' due to increasing their skills... No Sorcerer would consciously want to switch to a lower damaging spell (or worse yet, be FORCED to switch simply because they increased in skills) when they're trying to survive in the dungeons or increase their intelligence, so why are spells being taken away from me when my skills increase after being granted to me when my skills were lower? In my case, I am adding over 150 additional 'raw' mana points through items... plus 3 to intelligence granted to me through items... and I am still unable to cast the spell I just lost via increasing my level. Please... explain to me why this makes any sense at all? Better yet... explain to me how this was deemed 'fun' by the design team...
In my humble opinion, the magic / intelligence system, and the overall balancing of mana VS magic skills, VS Intelligence, needs to be re-tuned so it makes sense. The increase in mana requirements for spells cast at higher levels in EITHER school of magic, should not be scaled such that it strips away the players ability to cast a spell as a result of their skill increasing! Otherwise... increasing in levels ends up being a penalty for Magic users... who work hard to increase their skills so they can finally cast a summoning spell that actually deals some damange... only to find that very spell taken away from them once their skills increase to the next level...
Here's a stumper...
Overall, what is the real purpose of increasing in 'skills' (like Combat Magic or Melee, or Ranged)? An increase in Melee, does not add any more damage, and does not factor at all into which items I can use... I assume it factors into how readily I can strike an enemy... but this effect seems very, very small... An increase in Ranged does not seem to impact how often I hit an enemy... nor does it factor into what weapons I can use.. and it does not increase damage, either. I already know what going up in Combat or Nature magic skills do... (It takes spells away from you that you used to be able to cast!) so I guess I'm glad the other skill increases don't penalize you... Or do they? Because it seems from the many hours of play that I've put into the game, that the higher you are in a given 'skill' the less that skill impacts it's associated attribute (Melee- Strength, Ranged-Dexterity, and Magic-Intelligence) Such that it appears a level 35 Melee fighter has their strength move up more slowly than say, a level 13 Melee fighter. Bottom line is... other than a flashy graphic over your head when you go up, increasing in any of the 'skills' does not seem to have any major benefit to your character, and may indeed (in the case of magic users)penalize them...
Here's another good question.
What is the REAL motiviation to play the game in Multi-Player? It's not for the quests... because they aren't saved at all.. and you can just keep doing them over and over again... So there's really no sense of a 'team' of people working together for a common goal, because that 'goal' vanishes as soon as you exit the game... Clearly, it's only purpose is to hack a bunch of monsters to bits ... Which, after awhile... does get a bit old... even with flashy graphics... Without any story to pull you through in Multi-Player... (The single player story is weak as it stands) without quests ... There's very little real 'substance' to the game... I enjoy hacking and slashing with the best of them... and have played both Diablo, and Diablo II (and all expansion packs) literally to death... but that only gets a person so far... and then it's just one more monster in an endless sea of them... With the purpose of killing one group of monsters simply being so that you can move on to kill the next group of monsters... Not attempting to 'compare' here, but at least in the Diablo series... your quests stuck with you... giving you some purpose in playing as a team...
And finally... How can I see my characters cumulative 'level' unless I start the game? At the start of a Multi-Player game, my characters cumulative level is shown... but no where in the game is this available... why? Has anyone found a way to do this?
And why aren't the number of kills of my single players party members tracked just like they are in Multi-Player? This would prove useful in knowing which of your hired hands is most effective at their given job (in the case of fighters or rangers).
All in all... a great game... that makes great strides graphically in the Hack and Slash genre... but is so full of counter-intuitive activities and just plain contractictory aims, that it's sizzle appeal on the grill, is far greater than the eating appeal on the plate...
Last edited by Arms Of Dirt on Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:12 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Hello Arms Of Dirt,
nice post and good points in it  . Some funny, some not so funny.
I agree with many of them. Best is that with Mericks stuff. Haha, I didnt know this . |
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Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:15 pm |
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vaticide
Put food in here
Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 1122
Location: One step behind a toddler bent on destruction. |
Very nice, well thought-out.
I haven't had what you mentioned about the sudden inability to cast spells thing happen to me, but I am certain this is an unintended feature. I would report this to the bugs email they have provided.
In addition to your % chance to hit going up with level, it appears the % to hit for your enemies goes down, making it harder for low level stuff to hit you. This is augmented, of course, by an increase in armour class, but I think level alone helps.
I had the same issue with Merik's staff, but I had another party member who was able to use it. One explanation is possibly his imprisonment weakened him.
Interesting points, I will certainly be looking for these things as I play.
-vaticide |
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Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:22 pm |
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Arms Of Dirt
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 21
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| Dungeon Siege Frustrations |
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I've submitted the issues I've encountered both as 'bugs' and, in case by some strange stroke they were actually 'intentional', as items on the 'wish' list... Because I'd like to wish them away...
I've noticed that as your Dexterity increases, the chance to be hit by an enemy goes down, as this directly impacts your Armor rating... but the 'skills' like Melee, and Ranged, do not seem to impact this stat... unless they do so in a hidden way... Which wouldn't surprise me.
With regards to Meriks staff... if he was 'weakened'... I'd expect his Nature Magic skill to be lower... but not his intelligence... one wouldn't figure that he'd get dumber by being trapped in the ice. And the developers never much went for 'realism' elsewhere in the game... (Can you say, bows that never need arrows! *lol* )
Thanks for the positive feedback on the post.. I just typed it as it came to mind.
Arms Of Dirt
Last edited by Arms Of Dirt on Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:28 pm |
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The Blue Mist
Guest
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Merlin was weakened while he was prisioned. The story even says so.
You dont think that a "Great Wizard For Ehb" would be level 14 do you? |
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Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:33 pm |
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Arms Of Dirt
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 21
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Merik could be a 'great wizard' in Nature Magic and still only be a level 14... Ever try to go up in levels in Nature Magic? Takes eons! A magic user at level 14 in Nature Magic, is pretty 'Great'... If you don't start developing Nature Magic early on... it gets tough to raise your levels with 'Zap' against the tougher opponents later... it's hard to stand there and get pounded on by a Swamp Wiches minions, while you are dishing out a whopping 10 damage per 'Zap' hoping to go up... And casting healing spells takes even more time to raise your Nature Magic...
It seems odd that they'd want to go for 'realism' at such an odd time in the game... such as when returning Meriks staff to him... especially considering that you never need to find arrows for your bows, or bolts for your crossbows in the game... it just seems like more of an oversight than a back-handed attempt at realism, when nothing else about the combat system seems 'real'...
Thanks for the feedback!
Arms of Dirt |
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Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:43 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Merik was member of my party until I met much greater Nature mage in Swamps. He was only member of my party that I dismissed and he will stay only one (I will not leave someone else...). |
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Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:36 pm |
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Sphinx
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 38
Location: Above, below, and all sides |
ugh.......i read the first paragraph and scrolled down to see how much i had to read.......and never scrolled back up...lol sorry, i'm worthless >=) |
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Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:57 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
quote:
Originally posted by Sphinx
ugh.......i read the first paragraph and scrolled down to see how much i had to read.......and never scrolled back up...lol sorry, i'm worthless >=)
You are a little bit too lazy try it, it is good article :]. |
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Wed Apr 24, 2002 6:49 am |
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PadainFain
Village Dweller
Joined: 24 Apr 2002
Posts: 6
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| About the stat increases. |
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I'd just like to comment on the bit of your message about the apparently strange way that stats go up, wherein you said:
"Such that it appears a level 35 Melee fighter has their strength move up more slowly than say, a level 13 Melee fighter."
There was a great post about this on the IGN boards recently, kudos to the poster, this is not my work. It goes something like this...
Any time you get experience the amount you gained is added to both your Skill exp pool and your Stat exp pool. The skill pool attributes all the experience to the skill you used to get it and the stat pool splits between its 3 respective stats, by a ratio that biases the increase to the main stat. i.e. strength for melee-ing, dexterity for bow use, intelligence for spells.
Now there is the "uber level", an aggregate of all the experience you have made. For example someone with 100/0/0/0 skills is level 100. Someone with 50/50/0/0 is (best guess) level 60-65.
In the same way that being a higher level requires more experience to reach the next one, a high stat requires more experience to increase it than a low one.
If a character has 100 melee and 0 in everything else as above and continues to use just melee, after 33 billion exp they will reach 101 in melee/level but they will not gain a single stat point*. Why? You need 33 billion exp in strength to gain a point but the 33 billion you earned has been split to your three stats (allbeit mainly to strength).
If the same character uses just ranged skill while they work to level 101 (getting the same 33 billion exp), their ranged skill will reach 95 before this happens.
Essentially the experience you need to increase a skill is a function of that skill's level whereas the experience you need to raise your stats is a function of your "uber-level".
This is precisely why low level skills increase as fast as they do and low level stats rise as slowly as they do.
*They could of course increase in a stat but they would only make .73 of a strength point in this time (or whatever the proportion is). |
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Wed Apr 24, 2002 11:31 am |
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Arms Of Dirt
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 21
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Thanks for the at-length post... It makes total sense... and I'd suspected that there was a weighting factor in the overall way that stats were distributed... which explains the behavior I've been seeing in the way characters level up...
Thanks again!
Arms Of Dirt |
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Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:36 pm |
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