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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
| Side Quest: Questions to Oblivion's Design Answers |
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Oblivion is dominating the RPG landscape at the moment and like many, I’ve been playing for several days now. It’s an ambitious project with a monstrous amount of content and it will take quite some time to really get a grip on an overall picture - but there are some design decisions that I find…curious…and I’d like to discuss them just a little. I should stress this is in no way a review – or even an impressions article – and these observations are based on a mere 12 hours or so play.
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<br>I’ll try and avoid spoilers (unless you consider discussion of a couple of the underlying game mechanics a spoiler).
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<br>In some ways, these observations are contradictory – they’re not necessarily <i>wrong</i>, although I think the game would be better if these elements were approached differently, and in some ways they relate directly to what Oblivion <i>is</i>…it’s quite possible that changing these items might lead to Oblivion being a different game that I might like better but not may not sell as well or appeal to as many other players. I’m not really a fan of the Elder Scrolls series, so feel free to berate me in the comments if you feel Oblivion does exactly what a fan wants.
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<br>What am I talking about? In essence, Oblivion tries to offer the freedom of several different play styles: want to focus on a linear, story-driven experience? Stick to the main storyline for 40 or so hours. Want to wander the countryside indefinitely raiding dungeons and abandoned keeps? Go for it. Travel from town to town, meeting different people but avoiding the central story? No problem. But balancing the gameworld <i>is</i> a problem.
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<br>The obvious (and often debated) comparison is with the Gothic series. The reality is they are quite different games, so I’ll get to the point: Gothic II doesn’t muck about trying to support different play goals – it makes no apologies for having deadly areas where a newbie will drown, or for requiring you to be strong enough to tackle the different enemies in latter chapters. You’re expected to explore a good part of the gameworld and undertake most of the quests available.
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<br>I’m not a big fan of Oblivion’s “use a skill to improve it” system of character development but it obviously has plenty of devotees. In Oblivion, using a skill for a period increases the skill score – and 10x skill improvement steps in any of the 7 major skills (chosen at character creation) results in a level advancement.
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<br>One problem is that this doesn’t necessarily equate to “power”. A character with non-combat major skills such as Speechcraft, Security and Athletics can run around, talking to NPCs and picking locks to produce a level advancement without improving their ability to cope with higher-level enemies in any meaningful way. Some players micromanage their gameplay to ensure appropriate skill advancement – better not pick any locks right now, because I don’t want that to advance yet! Other players even create characters with almost the opposite skills of the character they want to play to regulate the skill progression. Any system that encourages this behaviour has problems but another reason this is an issue is…
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<br>Oblivion uses levelled lists to balance the gameworld, adjusting the adversaries you meet to tailor the difficulty to your character (within certain parameters). To be honest, I prefer this to Morrowind’s completely broken balance but it introduces other problems. At a low level, you won’t barely scrape through a battle with the thinnest of margins, beaten and bloody to luckily uncover a coveted high-level magic item that made it all worthwhile, because the loot has been carefully levelled – you’ll get a bolt of worthless cloth and a few coins. Then again, the battle probably wasn’t that hard because the enemies were chosen to keep things nicely balanced…unless your character <i>level</i> doesn’t really match your actual battle capabilities, of course.
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<br>To be fair, an answer isn’t so obvious. With over 200 dungeons (according to the official blurb) you might enter any particular dungeon at level 1…or level 40. Unlike Gothic where the designers can simply say “tough – come back when you are stronger”, Oblivion doesn’t want to do that because they support these different play styles. Perhaps this is the only dungeon you’ll do as you pursue the main plot – or perhaps you’ve made a goal of finding every one and this is #173 on your journey to become a demi-god.
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<br>Similarly, stealing has been carefully balanced. With so many houses and so much loot, there’s a real danger a thief could make off with the whole shop. In response, Oblivion marks every single stolen item and no standard shopkeeper will touch hot goods. That’s right – steal a generic loaf of bread in Imperial City and you won’t be able to offload it to a shifty shopkeep in Anvil, because he magically knows it’s stolen property from halfway across the world.
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<br>In this case, at least part of an answer is pretty straightforward. If the door-locks and chests of the rich and famous were genuinely hard to open, requiring a rigorous skill-check, it wouldn’t be so much of a problem. The thing is, Bethesda didn’t want to exclude anyone so there’s a lock-picking mini-game that (with some practice and patience) can be beaten by anyone, even without thieving skills.
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<br>There are other areas where Bethesda has taken design shortcuts or heavy-handed systems to resolve balance issues but I’ve run out of space. Despite these comments, I should stress that I’m really enjoying Oblivion and for me, it’s significantly improved over Morrowind in a number of key areas.
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<br>It’s worth heading over to GamerDad and reading Dave Long’s article titled <a href="http://www.gamerdad.com/detail.cfm?itemID=3123" target="_blank">Saving the world... when I feel like it</a>, which discusses the immersion problems related to the plot with accommodating opposing play styles.
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<br>What do you think? Are there better ways to balance an open game like Oblivion? Should they focus on a particular play scheme or does that destroy the appeal of this sort of game? Love the levelled lists or hate them? I’d love to hear your comments. |
Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:40 am |
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Roi Danton
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Germany |
I completly agree with you, Dhruin.
This is the same thing, I criticised an couple of years ago when Morrowind came out. Bethesda isn't focusing on anything. They want to do all the funny things in one game...sometimes is works, sometimes not. I like Oblivion (played a few hours up until now) much more then I liked Morrowind, but that doesn't change the fact, that Oblivion is only fun, if you can ignore a few things. Including the ones you mentioned.
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www.withingames.net |
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Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:57 am |
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Kepler
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 109
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Bethesda is using the scientific method with great success.
I believe many of the design decisions in Oblivion are experiments toward what Todd Howard has always said; "We (Bethesda) want to perfect the single player experience."
They will fail often, they will get some things right and they will innovate at times.
This is why the Elder Scrolls series has improved with each incarnation.
I will gladly take an ambitious game with alot of great features and some terrible features over a cautiously made mediocre game. |
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Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:23 am |
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Guest
Guest
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I think you've hit the nail on the head with the "all things to all people" comment - Bethesda is looking to appeal to as broad a market as possible. Doing this is the "easy" way out, since it guarantees good sales if correctly executed. From your comments (Ihave not playe dthe game yet) I see that certain irritating features (such as the divine knowledge about stolen goods) have been carried over. That is very annoying! And poor design, in my opinion. I also have issues with the skill progression system - Imust admit that I munchkinized things in Morrowind - I stayed in a room for a week casting Destruction spells to boost my skill. Which is totally ridiculous of course. A more senseible implementation would only give you "experience" if you were actively involved in combat. I also feel that the levelled dungeons and monsters are a silly way of pandering to player incompetence - if someone is cocky enough to enter a dangerous area, they should pay the price. I did this in Baldurs Gate, when I headed north too soon - I was sent yelping back south again with my tail between my legs. But I knew that I was too weak too face the dangerous challenges ahead, and that made the game all the more satisfying when I was able to best those monsters. While I did not play Gothic 1,I did play Gothic 2 and really loved it - I admire companies who are willing move against "the market", although I do understand that it is dangerous to do so. Of course, I shall rush out to buy the game as soon as it arrive shere  I did enjoy Morrowind, and I'm sure I'll enjoy this to. |
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Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:33 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
@Kepler: Interesting comment - I actually see it the other way around. I'm not wanting to bash Bethsoft and let me reiterate I am really enjoying the game as a whole.
I think the levelled lists, the marked stolen goods and mini-games are all choices of mediocrity because they are afraid of forcing players to make choices.
Here's one example of reworking stealing.
Shops and houses with expensive stuff should have *good* locks. Remove the lockpicking mini-game or at least make it so you need minimum Security skill levels to do harder locks. That way, only those that have pumped the Security skill and reached higher levels will have access to the expensive loot. Those with lesser skills are mostly restricted to lesser loot.
The AI needs to be more consistent - if I pick up an item in a shop during the day, NPCs should challenge to put it down (basically like Gothic). This avoids silly problems where accidentally picking up a loaf of bread in the Inn results in an arrest and makes it harder for thieves during business hours.
Instead of forcing thieves to go through the official fence, which is constrictive, perhaps enforcers from the Thieves Guild could occasionally "visit" thieves who sell direct to merchants to "encourage" them to deal through the Guild.
I'm sure there are a bunch of different ways of doing this but I think having omniscient shopkeepers is taking the easy way out.
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:46 am |
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Guest
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the one thing i really dislike is the auto level of finded objects and enemies. |
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Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:13 am |
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fatBastard()
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 40
Location: Denmark |
I have to admit that I'm a bit surprised by some of the comments here. It wasn't more than a few weeks ago that a rather significant majority voted for freeform gameplay yet now it seems to be quite the opposite.
I mean, what is the difference between putting the player in a narrow corridor with only one exit and the starting path from Xardas' tower to the city of Korinis in Gothic 2 (where if you stray off the path you're toast)? Don't get me wrong, I really like the Gothic games but I fail to see how fixed difficulty areas/dungeons in an open world are any different from the standard linear "finish current level to access next level" approach. The whole "Tough, come back when you're stronger" argument is in favor of linear gameplay and while that is fine with me (I don't really care if a game is freeform or linear as long as the story is good), I think it a bit unfair to use it as an argument against the leveled instances in Oblivion when they are trying to achieve the exact opposite of a linear approach.
Before I get too comfortable on my pedestal let me just say that I could have done without the minigames. I've seen worse (e.g. pod racing and turret shooting in KOTOR) but I still dislike minigames as a whole and there is absolutely no doubt about them being there to please the console crowd. On top of that you're right: you CAN master them without being proficient in the particular skill ... on the other hand I clearly remember saving before picking a lock in Gothic, memorizing the sequence and then reloading when I got it right ...
In general I like the idea of leveled encounters. Instead of being beaten senseless time after time when you enter an area that is too tough for you or breeze through a dungeon while on the phone when you enter one that is too easy there should be a greater chance that you can survive the encounter without it being too easy. Note that I used the word: "Should" because you are right that the player level is not necessarily the same as combat level and that can lead to some unfortunate problems. However it must be said that if you can't get better in a certain skill the normal way you can always pay your way to a better performance with the trainers found around the world so even poor career choices are redeemable to a certain extend.
All in all I think it (again) comes back to the good old question: Do I want a game with a high REplay value or do I want a game with a high play value. In Arx Fatalis I constantly felt "left out" because I chose to one of the 3 major ways (fighter, thief, mage). In that game the fact that I didn't have enough strenght the use weapons and armour were constantly thrown in my face and the same was the case with the countless chests and doors that I couldn't access because of my lacking lockpicking ability. A game with a high replay value ... but also with a diminished play value BECAUSE I was constantly reminded that I chose the magic path (the final slap in the face was when the final boss was impervious to magic). I don't know, maybe I'm just rambling here but I've always been a "Jack of all trades" kind of guy so I like the idea that I can choose to focus on smooth talking or my bow and arrows or conjuration magic when I feel like it and not find out 60+ hours into the game that I made a mistake at character creation time. In most party based RPGs you put together a party of characters that "cover all the bases" so to speak but that option is not available when it is a single person party and that is why it is imperative that you're able to adjust your skills as you progress or that the game does not put you in a situation where such an issue would arise (i.e. limit the choices the player can make).
Oh well, enough rambling and back to Oblivion
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Signature? ... erm ... nope, can't think of one. |
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Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:56 am |
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fluffy bunny
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest
I think you've hit the nail on the head with the "all things to all people" comment - Bethesda is looking to appeal to as broad a market as possible. Doing this is the "easy" way out, since it guarantees good sales if correctly executed.
I think it should be noted that this is probably the only way to make such an ambitious RPG in todays market. With the amount of resources needed to make Oblivion, there's no way it could generate a profit if it only appealed to the "hardcore" RPG fans. However, I believe its success could pave the way for more "hardcore" RPGs in the future. Hopefully Gothic III will be the first of many RPGs that will enjoy more attention because of Oblivion.
Regarding the way the monsters levels up with you, I agree that it's not ideal. I have to play the game more to make up my mind on it. |
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Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:15 pm |
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Allen63
Guest
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I thought Gothic II was the best ever rpg for me -- but, I saw that it did not really allow much choice -- one had to play the whole game as the designers intended.
Morrowind allowed anything -- but was mediocre.
YET, if I could only buy one, it would have been Morrowind -- because a totally open game is my "holy grail".
Thus, I am extatic over Oblivion (27 hours into it).
Yes, I could imagine some changes that would be improvements. So what. I could do that with any game -- including Gothic II (which was a great game).
Anyhow, while it is not necessary, I imagine we WILL see a few changes when the first Oblivion expansion pack comes out -- Gothic II needed patches to version 1.32 before it was truly good.
So, lets watch our comparisons. Oblivion is fantastic in an absolute sense. It is extraordinarly fantastic for a just released game of its scope  |
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Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:23 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
If your goal is to give the player the ultimate freedom and your ressources to program a perfect answer to every action the player is probably taking are limited - then you will have to make compromises. No way around it. To create the perfect simulation of a fantasy world is impossible. I am astonished and pleased by how far Bethesda has ventured forward on the way to this goal, but of course there are things that haven't be solved perfectly.
Let me tell you that I immensely enjoy this game so far (after 30+) game hours. 30 hours into the game in Morrowind, the economy was completely broken. Here it is still robust and functioning. The prize for that is that you don't have uber-loot for low level characters. Some will find this bad, some will find it good.
The most complaints about game design on the official forums are about the fact that the world is levelling with you. But I have the impression that most of the people haven't played the game they are complaining about, since not everything levels with you and most fights get a lot easier, while some remain tough (as it should be, I think). Bethesda had to make the descision to offer you either freedom to go everywhere (with levelling enemies) or locked off regions with tough monsters. Again, a question of taste, and I prefer their approach.
Skill advancement is different this time, ad my verdict on this option is still open. So far, it has posed no problems for me, but we will see how this looks like when my character is in the high-level regions.
Yes, you can question some of the fundamental design decisions in Oblivion, but in general I think that as a package, they are well thought out and working towards an unique and very rewading gaming experience. This game is SO MUCH better than Morrowind, and I liked Morrowind back when it was released.
That's all from me for now
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Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:30 pm |
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fluffy bunny
Guest
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I just read the gamerdad-article, and found this last quote very interesting:
"This is still a great game, and one that I'm looking at favorably for the sheer volume of things to do. But it strikes me that it might be even better with no plot at all. Instead maybe focus on a million more bite-size chunks of herodom that you simply go out and find yourself without ever worrying about Saving The World?"
I would very much like to see such a game. I suppose it could still have a fairly set goal - how about beginning as a prisoner and, if you're really good, end up as a ruler or something? But instead of bringing in the apocalypse, it would just focus on you doing adventures. It would be interesting.
Other than that, I agree with much of what FatBastard said. I remember playing the Quest for Glory games as a thief, because (at least in the early ones) that gave me access to both both magic and fighting. I wasn't particularily interested in stealing stuff (though that was fun too), but I didn't want to be denied the option of solving a problem using magic just because I chose to be a fighter. I don't want illogical and unrealistic "classes" deciding what I can or can't do, I want to decide that myself.
(the worst thing here is the games that, for some reason, decides that I can not wield a hammer because I don't know anything about blunt weapons, or that I can not wear a cloak because I'm not a magician) |
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Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:32 pm |
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bjon045
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 234
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Dhruin, It sounds like I am playing a similar character to you as I had the same problems. My primary skills were speechcraft, Acrobatics, Atheletics, light armour, sneaking, security and blades. I neglected blades a little for the first couple of levels and then the game been really difficult - although I did find a way around that by purchasing training in my primary combat skill. I am at level 12 now and I have to be very selective with my battles as most monsters can still kill me easily, thankfully I can sneak past most of them, I do enjoy that you can sneak past mobs, pick their chest and still get the good loot without even fighting them, it is kind of a pity some form of combat skill is required to get anywhere in the main story.
I think the only solution to this problem would be to come up with some kind of combat effectiveness formula i.e. hits + highest combat skill + highest magic skill = enemy strength |
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Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:34 pm |
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.Twinfalls
Guest
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Note that the criticism made by GamerDad - that you can stray from the main quest and do other stuff at your leisure, and the Daedra will not destroy towns any more quickly - could be levelled equally at Gothic 2. The latter stages of G2 were exactly the same, you were impressed upon with an urgency to help save Khorinis from the beastly hordes, yet you could take as long as you wished. Yet G2 was not criticised for this. Though what is missing from TES now is timed quests like there were in Daggerfall.
Re levelling, it seems to me that, (I have not played the game), Bethesda has taken too extreme an approach. What is wrong with having just some areas that you are warned about, viz: "You want to go where??! Ye Gods, that place is the most foul and cursed region in Tamriel. Be waaaaaaarned" by the old crone with the upturned eye in the creepy Inn. You go to this place, and think 'Holy Hellacopters, that creature is HUGE!', and turn and flee, only to return later once stronger, with much better weaponry and perhaps a friend or two. And you find some good stuff - not just phat loot, but something rewarding in a deeper way, perhaps you find a great historical artifact.
Yet it seems this never happens in the game.
It seems you can be champion of the Arena at level 1! Remember the Arena in Gothic 1? How satisfying it was to eventually defeat Kurgen? Imagine if he was a weakling just because you never levelled up?
The levelled lists were in place in Daggerfall. Yet Daggerfall was a truly vast game. It was designed for repeat playing, with infinite quests, and multiple MQ paths.
Yet Daggerfall had better rewards in its dungeons. You could accumulate quite a bit of loot, because the dungeons were huge. Not just find 6 gold in a locked chest at the end of a dungeon, like what seems to be the case at a low level in Oblivion.
It sounds like a cop-out from more planned and interesting design to me, frankly. |
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Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:47 pm |
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GothicGothicness
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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Am I the only one who is terrible dissapointed by this game?
I'll list some reasons here:
1. Lock picking mini-game what's the point of having a security skill, you can pick the hardest locks without problems without it. This was already mentioned.
2. The crappy speechcraft idea? what in the world does playing an easy and very stupid mini-game to make people like you have to do with roleplaying? getting speechcraft high is also usuless as you can easily get people to adore you even on low levels of it.
3. Technical problems and loading just to go inside a house?!? please in Gothic 2 we were free to walk around in an enormous world without loading. I would have prefered it to look a bit less good, and be gone with the loading. It's especially painful to see NPC fade in and out when they reach a door! It looks ridiculess.
4. Everything looks the same inside the houses in the cities. BLEH.
5. Boring NPC most people have, a conversation option rumors... WOW. Well it gets worse a lot of them have the same voice acting and the same thing to say! Radiant AI system... people do exactly the same thing everyday and eat for 2 hours... not impressed.
6. Riding? well, yeah I wanted this feature, but what is the point? it's slower than walking, duo to the game having to load all the time. I have a 3700+´with 1 GB of ram and Geforce 7800 GTX, I think it should be possible to go riding without enormous slowdowns.
7. There are a lot of dungeons... so what? a lot of them looks the same, and plays the same and has a ridiculess reward in them. Besides they're fairly small.
8. Items... well instead of using the entire screen, let us list them in one long bloody list so the player has to scroll forever until he finds the item he wants.
9. Healing potions... whoops I'm almost dying. Okay I'll pause the game go into the interface and drink 3 major heal potions... WOW I'm back to full health nice.
10. Stealing? aside from the problem mentioned earlier.... why do the guards arrest me and blaim me for having stolen goods when I dropped all of it?
11. Annoying bugs with bows... if I equip it and arrows I have to equip the arrows 4 times before the game understands that I have equipped them... well I guess this is a bug that will be fixed... but... it's still annoying.
12. The extremely ugly textures in the distance... it looks like a game from 1996, how can I enjoy the very beautiful landscape close to me, if it in the distance looks so ugly?
Well, there are a bunch of more issues that I have, but I'll start with these. |
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Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:40 pm |
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ChaoticCoyote
Guest
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I dislike game slike Gothic, which force me into a linear path and storyline. Nor do they allow me to create my own character; I start as who they say I am, and even though I can customize the character, it is still *their* main character, not mine.
Give me the freedom of Oblivion any day, where I can go anywhere and do anything, in any order, whever I choose. The skill system makes your character reflect your gameplay; if you want to get better at combat, go fight something -- otherwise, pick quests that don't require combat!
The variety fo quests in Oblivion is refreshing; I've been given all sorts of things to do, some quite original for a CRPG.
Certainly, Oblivion has flaws; the interface has been simplified as compared to Morrowind, probably to make it more palatable to the console crowd, for example. Trying to "catch" and talk to some NPCs is frustrating beyond belief. Like all CRPGs, conversations with NPCs can become repetitive. The combat mechanics are clumsy, at least for me.
Overall, though, Oblivion gives me what I asked for: The freedom to define *my* character and play them the way *I* want them to be, in an interesting and large universe.
Now on to taking over the Mage's Guild with my Argonian... |
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Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:30 pm |
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