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kenney bounces
Village Dweller
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 14
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| Finished NOTR as a mage : Criticisms and thoughts |
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Definition of finishing NOTR = killing raven.
Now, my thoughts on NoTR : It is extremely short. The time it takes to get there and get powerful enough to go through NoTR as a mage is much longer than the expansion itself. I finished the expansion in a day, but it took me almost 3 days of playing to get there. (as a mage)
Balancing is pretty much silly in NoTR. They reduced the power of your character greatly, but they put in characters for your little party that are godly powerful. And sometimes even invulnerable. Just bring them along and they'll kill everything for you while you take a backseat and wonder how it feels like to fight.
If you're a mage, it gets even worse. The ONLY spells that will kill things, are : Summon goblin skeleton, summon skeleton, ice block.
Ice block raven, summon two skeletons, and the boss of NoTR is dead within seconds. It's really quite disappointing. You don't fight, your summons do the work. Get used to this. This happens...A LOT because your direct damage spells are worthless. Zzzzzzz.
Direct damage spells are really lousy in NoTR. Especially with the mana and training costs. I mean..like REALLY pathetic. You'll take almost 30 fireball shots to kill a seeker.
The easy way is to ice block, and summon two skeletons. Voila, dead seeker in 16 seconds.
To take it even further, see a troll? Summon two skeletons. Voila, dead troll.
This applies to almost everything BUT dragon snappers.
For some reason dragon snappers are near gods in this expansion. Don't ask me why a dragon snapper should be more powerful than a troll. Doesn't make sense to me.
Then there's one absurdly powerful spell called thunderstorm which you get on the 3rd circle that does AoE 250 damage for 100 mana. Cast it, run around, and dozens of orcs will die after two hits.
This....does not make sense at all.
Why nerf direct damage spells into oblivion, but boost the power of area effects?
(Note, beliar's claw transforms into a spell rune, where one of the direct damage spell is 200 damage for 100 mana. 3rd circle spell.)
I also do NOT see the point of nerfing training costs to almost 25 points for every 5 skill gains past 150. You MUST have a lot of mana as a mage. Putting it on the same training scale as other stats is silly. (I can see the point in slowing training gains for str,dex, and weapon skills but not mana)
Also, requiring 10 bloody learning points to learn Fireball? What's up with that? No wonder i've only learnt 3 spell runes in the game. Besides costing a buttload of learning points, almost 90% of the spells are useless when put up against summon skeleton.
Ok, that's enough ranting. This game could've been balanced much better, but as it stands, i'll give it a 6/10 rating. It's an "alright" game, it's nowhere as impressive as the original gothic2 in terms of content and gameplay. (I realise it's not supposed to be, but it's really a big letdown from what i was expecting in terms of gameplay time) |
Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:31 am |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
Hi, I still haven't got NotR, so I can only say why I think they have done the things you mentioned.
Well, here goes:
quote:
They reduced the power of your character greatly, but they put in characters for your little party that are godly powerful. And sometimes even invulnerable.
Be happy! I wouldn't want to take some wothless bump with me to hunt orcs. Be glad you don't have to fight for a change.
quote:
The ONLY spells that will kill things, are : Summon goblin skeleton, summon skeleton, ice block.
Why nerf direct damage spells into oblivion, but boost the power of area effects?
I think they wanted that. Well, maybe not exactly but I think they intended to make the spells more balanced. In the normal game you wouldn't even consider using those spells because they were worthless. Area spells weren't used very much either, except for Fire Rain and Wave of Death.
quote:
For some reason dragon snappers are near gods in this expansion.
There is a very easy explanation to that. They aren't called dragon snappers for nothing. They are snappers who changed under the control of the dragons and so inherited the strength of the dragons. And now with the strength of the dragons increased, they have to be very powerful too. But there exp makes it up, I think. 400 instead of 220.
And I've said it before and will say it again. It's always a question of giving and taking. The hard-core fans and gamers are very happy with the increased difficulty-level, while the normal players think it's too much.
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Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:34 am |
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NeoCodex
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 30 May 2004
Posts: 187
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Didn't play as mage in the expansion yet, but I really expected it to suck, as you are very weak in first 3 circles, and become almost TOO powerful in the 5th/6th circle, when you get spells like Mass Destruction. That spell is BRUTAL.
But anyway, if I get to the point.. I finished NotR too, and I'm in Act 4 now. I am playing with a Dragon Hunter and as a hardcore frp/rpg player I still find the game way too easy, especialy the add-on. There was no point of having fear from bandits or taking those pirates with me to the hunt, as I could have killed anything by than myself. I was level 25-30 and everything was too easy from me since the begining. No real challenge in fact, but I did have fun anyway. I have even used the Water Mage's armor all the time instead of Dragon Hunters, to make it more challenging (with protections WM50~DH100). My strength was over 100 and my 1h skill 60-80% when I was playing the add-on.
Next time, I will enter the new world earlier to make it more challenging (killing Raven was a child's play, he really didn't have a chance and that temple puzzles were real easy too). I don't know, but I think they didn't balance the game so good as they say.
Pay up to 4 times more for a stat point - I don't call that balancing. Yes, there were other things too, but it was still to easy.
Anyway, a great game. Add-on is exactly what I've expected, and even more.
Too bad tough there is nothing left in Jharkendar after you kill Raven! Even monsters don't respawn anymore! Bu! I'm sick of Valley of Mines, for Innos's sake! |
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Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:24 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
Mage difficulty: that the mage is too unbalanced has been mentioned often in the forums and in the review. You knew this before you bought NotR.
Length: ~25 hours play time, 50-60 new quests. This is approximately half the content G2 had. The number of quests in chapter 1 was doubled. Maybe you forgot to count these.
IMHO G2 plus add-on is clearly better than G2 alone.
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Webmaster GothicDot |
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Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:41 pm |
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Xerxes712
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Nov 2002
Posts: 605
Location: Uber die Welt |
It is not that difficult to alter the Gothic.dat file to make the Mage more "Fun" to play.
The problem is how to make the Mage more fun for everyone. Everyone has thier own idea. I am trying to assess from posting what the main things could be balanced out more for the Mage. Not just spell alterations and mana usage, damage, LP; but also NPC armor, skill, animals, EXP, weapons, potions, etc.
I can make Raven so that he is immune to all Magic for his armor; how about that?  Then Ice block being 'magic' based will not work on him.
There is four armor Melee; Arrow, Fire, Pure 'Magic'. Maybe make Raven immune to "Magic" but vulnerable to puny "Fire"?
I wanted to make each of the four dragon immune to one type of each four attack types just for a challenge.
Fire Dragon = immune to fire spells; including all fire monters.
Swamp Dragon =immune to Magic spells.
Stone Dragon= immune to Arrow
Ice Dragon= immune to Melee
Undead Dragon Boss= take a guess....
What ways do people think the Mage and NPC or animals, spells could be changed to make the Mage more "fun" to play?
It is not such a clear cut question considering how everyone uses a different play style.
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Wo ist mein Sumpfkraut? |
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Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:06 pm |
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NeoCodex
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 30 May 2004
Posts: 187
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The nearest thing to this was in Gothic 1. Remember the 3 golems? stone, ice and fire? each one was immune to damage of its own type, but very vulnerable to its opposite.
too bad the dragons (and all the other monsters too) don't wokr that way. I get your point, sounds wonderful. this would really make mage "more fun to play". |
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Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:59 pm |
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kenney bounces
Village Dweller
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 14
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| *playing mercenary this time around* |
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Alrighty, i've scrapped my level 31 mage (chapter 3) after killing raven, and i'm starting a new dragon hunter.
So far, it's more fun being able to actually FIGHT things. However, all training points must be invested in strength and a weapon skill, which kinda takes the "fun" factor away. (IE : sneaking, pickpocketing, skinning stuff, wisps, potions....etc..etc...)
Of course, you don't NEED to invest it in there, just as you don't NEED to finish the game. 
I'm just saying, if you're a sane player who wants to finish the game, you'll probably want to do it that way.
The game is much more balanced and playable as a mercenary. I would give it a 8/10 rating overall if played as a mercenary.
quote:
There is a very easy explanation to that. They aren't called dragon snappers for nothing. They are snappers who changed under the control of the dragons and so inherited the strength of the dragons. And now with the strength of the dragons increased, they have to be very powerful too. But there exp makes it up, I think. 400 instead of 220.
Let me explain something, TROLLS are 600 XP, and they ONLY TAKE 2 summoned skeletons to kill. So don't give me that "dragon snappers are balanced" because you have NOT played NOTR. Also, these dragon snappers spawn almost EVERYWHERE in the game. I can count the number of trolls i've encountered on ONE HAND. Can you do the same for dragon snappers?
quote:
Well, maybe not exactly but I think they intended to make the spells more balanced.
EXACTLY my point. They intended to make the spells balanced, my complaint was that they ARE FARRRRRRRRRR from balanced. They're NOT EVEN CLOSE to balancing it. AOE 250 damage for 100 mana versus 200 damage for 100 mana single DD spell? Do i even need to explain how that's not even REMOTELY balanced?
quote:
Be happy! I wouldn't want to take some wothless bump with me to hunt orcs. Be glad you don't have to fight for a change.
Huh? My complaint was, if you NERF the main hero, why boost your party members to godly status? WHERE's The balance? They should be at least CLOSE in comparison to your abilities.
IF you ever play NOTR, you will know what i mean when diego starts killing 3 orcs by himself, and all you can do is run like a little girl while he stays there and bloody kills everything, including dragon snappers!!
quote:
Mage difficulty: that the mage is too unbalanced has been mentioned often in the forums and in the review. You knew this before you bought NotR.
Eh? I knew the mage was hard to play. I KNEW he was unbalanced. He became so so much EVEN WORSE and LESS FUN in NOTR. Do you UNDERSTAND my argument?
There's a difference between the original and NOTR mage. The original, was HARD, and unbalanced somewhat. But he was FUN because learning points was low, i could learn lots of spells, cast around with different things, nuke things and run for my life, learn how to make a dozen potions, pickpocket, sneak, melee a bit and mess around and HAVE FUN!!
Now in NOTR? I'm limited to 4 spells, i WATCH my summons kill things, i can ONLY RUN away instead of participating in a fight compared in gothic 2.
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Xerxes :
Mage is quite simple. Make him a half decent melee'er (fine for single rpgs), lower mana and spell costs, lower direct damage mana costs. Lower the damage of lightning storm to 200, and buff up the beliar's claw DD spell to 250.
As for Raven, he NEEDS a special script when it comes to fighting. He is TOO LAME as it is. Just another normal dude with a sword. 
He's supposed to be the freaking last boss of NOTR, and he has beliar's claw! Give him some special abilities...put some patterns in him that i have to figure out to win...right now there's nothing. |
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Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:36 am |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
I had a different experience with NOTR. I did not play a mage, but
instead decided to become a Paladin "dex" fighter: Bow and 1-handed sword specialist.
I entered the add-on world as soon as possible (I was level 10 I think) because I wanted to avoid any balancing issues that may have made it too "easy".
I found it to be quite challenging and fun. Because I was underpowered in many instances I had to use certain tactics (drawing guys out, using scrolls )
to win and even improved my regular fighting skills (dodging, blocking, hitting at just the right time). I did feel the quests in the new world ended a bit sooner that I would have liked. But when you also take into account the changes in Khorinis, the amount of new content was adequate. I enjoyed the new characters (especially Greg) and had a blast reminiscing with my old pals from G1.
However, I will agree that now there is *far* less room for error in the development of your character. I beleive that this does take away a bit of the "fun" factor because you should be able to expirement a bit without it being too detrimental to long term char. building. In G2, you still had to specialize somewhat to be successful, but there was at least *some* leeway for mistakes or changes-of-mind during your character development.
Even from the outset, you almost have to know how you are going to proceed in the game. Most important is the decision of what stat is going to be your primary: Strength or Dex. This is dictated by the higher weapon requirements and the (IMHO unnecessary) increased costs of improving these stats. On the other hand, there are new ways to improve these stats and also new weapons that boost your combat skills.
But in the end, I think the addon is really not for CRPG newbies. It requires patience and careful planning to get by in the earlier parts (which is really
where the meat of the addon is).
I have stopped playing temporarily after dispatching Raven and finishing the AddOn. But after I finish Theif 3, I wll come back to G2 and see how the new addon balancing plays out throughout the rest of the game.
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All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras |
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Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:40 pm |
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