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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Boy, am I glad that the god you describe isn't the God that I believe in, Roach. I believe that everyone has the chance for salvation. God does not turn His back on anyone. He won't cast anyone away. But He will respect your wishes. If you deny His existance, His love and His salvation, then you are turning your back on Him. You willingly cast yourself into darkness through your own actions and since He gave you that right to choose, He won't take it away. Hell is the absence of God. Hell is knowing that you turned away from happiness. Hell is knowing that you turned away willingly from those who love you. Hell is knowing that you brought your own downfall on yourself and having to exist with the bitter torment of that knowledge. I'll pass.
As for your comments on the Pope saying I'll go to Hell for not attending mass, I completely disagree with him.
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Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:15 am |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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quote:
Originally posted by Val
Boy, am I glad that the god you describe isn't the God that I believe in, Roach.
Yeah, different religions and sects of same religions see very different versions of God. The “god I describe” (hey look, I quoted myself *g*) could be called the Catholic God, or the born-again God, and he’s downright mean. While, lets call him the Presbyterian God, would judge me solely on my actions, and I could get into heaven even as a heretic as long as I was a good person.
If darkness means being away from God then that’s fine by me and that’s not an evil act to send people who don’t believe into it. But once you go the Dante’s Inferno route on people that aren’t devout to the right religion, when every religion in the world believes itself to be the right religion, then what could be more evil?
By the way, this came up in a real life discussion the other day. What’s Purgatory like? I’ve heard it described as everything from hell without the lake of fire to what on Earth would be a paradise except God’s light doesn't shine there. And you can stay there as long as you’d like contemplating God and other things. Sounds pretty good to me.
And here is the even better question, what does worship entitle you to? Nothing? The right to feel that someone/something is listening when you pray, makes sure you stay basically ok as long as your faith is strong enough.
I am because the answer ‘because I love God’ doesn’t make any sense to me. I love certain people, but if I dropped to my knees in front of them an proclaimed that they were greater than I they would tell me to stand up and stop being stupid because they love me as well. So why worship? Just because the Bible commands it? If so then I demand something in return. And I have been told plenty of times that God made me this way. ‘This’ meaning everything not specifically anything religious. |
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:46 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
Roach, that's a mis-translation of the original!! Wrong verb tense is being used. The thread is amusing, I'll say that, but I won't say why!! Val is closest to the answer!! 
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If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:04 am |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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You mean the I’ll hold true in heaven part? I figured it was, so I tried to state that part in a funny way, but I guess humor doesn’t come through easily in a religious debate.
quote:
Originally posted by corwin
The thread is amusing, I'll say that, but I won't say why!!
An ant debating whether a human exists?
edit: It hit me that you may mean that only God knows the truth, but how does that make this funny? Are we not curious by nature?
Last edited by Roach on Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:56 am |
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Ugly_Prayer
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 38
Location: Sinking Fast |
I have never accepted the idea of a "brainless Universe." However, it is difficult for me to "point a finger" toward anything beyond that core belief/feeling. Theists and atheists alike - speak with entirely too much bass in their voice IMO. It is certainly their right to do so... however, it is also my right to whisper and giggle about such things. To ponder... and stand in the light/darkness of a true mystery.
However, I do find some of the ideas from the Oxford Philosophy guy to be fascinating. The concept of our creation coming from the "hands" of our own future descendant(s) is both interesting and optimistic. (I too find it hard to believe that we could possess such power without genocide of the Human race.)
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What I am I am, and say not. Being is the great explainer.
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:11 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
Roach, what I find amusing is the incredible number of misconceptions people have about God!! Val speaks with a certain degree of authority and plenty of accuracy; she has a solid if basic understanding and she expresses herself well. Most people tend to over simplify complex issues by being totally opinionated as they speak from relative ignorance. This is why I usually avoid saying much in religious discussions.
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If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:11 pm |
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Krzychu
Hidden Character
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1738
Location: It is my little secret. |
quote:
Originally posted by Roach
Wow, that’s down right Sage-like.
 I like to keep things short.
quote:
Originally posted by Roach
Ever see the movie Dogma?
Yup, seen it and pretty much enjoyed it. It's just that I like to think that if God is the god I believe him to be, then whatever he will do, will be right. I trust him. He could change his mind and do something not "according to the Bible" because he is wiser than his human priests on Earth. Mind you, God's servants are sometimes very wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by corwin
what I find amusing is the incredible number of misconceptions people have about God!!
I acknowledge the fact that I do not wholly understand God but I don't think that I'll be condemned for it. God does not turn his back on anyone.
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:31 pm |
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cfmdobbie
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 1859
Location: London, England |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
I am of the opinion that many people will be very surprised when they die. Either way. 
Delightfully put, Val. Reminds me of "Amish Paradise" by Weird Al Yankovic:
"A local boy kicked me in the butt last week,
I just smiled at him, and I turned the other cheek.
I don't really care, in fact I wish him well,
cause I'll be laughing my head off when he's burning in Hell."
Discussing religion is always a risky business so I tend to avoid it, hence my flip comment above. However, I will say that I currently do not believe in a divine being, but suspect that I may begin to believe somewhere down the line. I certainly don't dismiss the idea.
Today, sitting here, my scientific mind tells me that this is all there is, that the universe operates by the despotic rule of Physics and Chemistry, and that life on Earth came about by a sequence of random events four billion years ago.
However, I do not doubt that some people believe in a divine being, and where there's smoke, eh?
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:34 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
God is a sentience that just exists. Heaven and Hell do not exist, they are just imagined by people who cant deal with the fact that their consciousness (sp?) is temporary. I feel love for God because it gave me consciousness (albeit indirectly via creation of the rules of our reality), not because of salvation.
I am kind to people because I think it is right, not because I am trying to buy my way into heaven.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:43 pm |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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quote:
Originally posted by Val
God does not turn His back on anyone.
quote:
Originally posted by Krzychu
God does not turn his back on anyone.
Now hold on, if you’re there for someone, then doesn’t that require them knowing that that is the case. If someone is in crisis and comes to you to talk but you make them feel as if you are not listening, then is that not turning your back on then? I’m not setting a bar of being able to help them, I just mean a friendly ear. If you walk past a bum on the street and don’t even give him any change, after all there are so many, are you not turning your back on him/them all? I don’t feel that there is a God, but if there is then I feel he has turned his back on a whole lot of people, myself included. |
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:00 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
A lot of bad things happen to a lot of good people, but that doesnt mean that there isnt a good reason (or that there is).
I dont think the lack of God speaking to someone is a sign that it does not care, even if it is capable of talking to us.
I see it this way: If God exists, then nothing else matters, because that God gave me consciousness and that is the most precious gift that anyone can give, regardless of the emotional rollercoaster that we all must endure.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:04 pm |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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Not help, just provide a friendly ear.
quote:
Originally posted by Roach
I’m not setting a bar of being able to help them, I just mean a friendly ear.
But if we talk are to talk about people who could be helped but are not, what about suicides? Specifically people born with chemical imbalances driven to suicide by their own illness/imbalances, freewill is one thing, but if someone was born ill then how much freewill did they really have? Same could be said for those born with terminal diseases or children with cancer or those living in countries who suffer famine, where is the freewill in any of this? Maybe they didn’t pray hard enough to turn the hurricane away from them like Pat Robertson did? Maybe they didn’t pray hard enough to make mana fall from heaven? Or maybe they just didn’t feel like playing Job? |
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:37 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
I dont have all the answers (obviously no one does), but most of those people you mentioned still got to experience the joys (and sadness) of consciousness. Surely thats better than never existing at all?
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:40 pm |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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Not for some people.
And to add to the above...
If Job had failed the test and turn from God would he have been sent to hell? Or did God turn from Job for allowing the Devil to test him so ruthlessly? |
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:43 pm |
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