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RedTiger
Village Leader
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 93
Location: Center of Chaos |
I'm really glad to see this discussion going on. Feel like i'm on the tail end of it though. I sort of have the distinction of being quite the noob when it comes to MMORPGs because i haven't really logged much time yet in any of the ones i've played or am playing. Consequently i've been PK'd more times than seems right by griefers and it irks me beyond belief. But Chekote's point makes sense to me. I'm all for being able to play evil characters and if PK'ing is part of that role then so be it, but there has to be some sort of generally accepted code of ethics among players to make it work. I'm not sure it's really up to the developers to put in limits in the game itself as much as it's up to the players to play fair. Guess that's the idealist talking. Until then i'm looking forward to games that give me the options of playing PvP or not. |
Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:00 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
quote:
Originally posted by RedTiger
I'm not sure it's really up to the developers to put in limits in the game itself as much as it's up to the players to play fair. Guess that's the idealist talking. Until then i'm looking forward to games that give me the options of playing PvP or not.
It's realy a mixture of both. I would love it if people could stick to ethics and play without developer intevention, but that will never happen. With just enough Dev intervention I think most players can keep themselves under control. We just have to find a good balance and a good system (In my oppinion, no one has come close to the perfection of the original state of UO yet).
In regards the the optional PvP games that are coming out. They do not interest me at all. I dont see how you can be evil when you can only attack people in specific areas.
In UO, there were always consequences for killing people, but the only place you were truly safe was in town. The further you got from town, the more danger there was because there werent hardly any people around to help you. It was a natural increase in danger. Not the kind of forced PvP restrictions they are using nowadays.
After I had killed a certain amount of people, I couldnt even go to town anymore or I would instantly be killed by the guards. Also I constantly had legions of PK Hunters on my back, and that was all part of the fun.
Its just very hard to express in words how much of an excellent balance they had in UO until they started messing it up. You realy had to experience it for yourself.
I will be VERY surprised if any game comes close to that again. Most developers seem to be going down the "Dumbing Down" route and just making the games completely safe so they can appeal to a wider audience. Every game will probably just end up like the sims online! 
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:56 pm |
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Kiff
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Indiana |
Kiff <--- thinks Chekote works for OSI. So many UO plugs. 
But I agree with the evil PKer Chekote, UO ruled and that started my MMORPG addition. Bastards. Anyway if Darkfall sticks with what it says it will do, it will be eirily simular to UO. But the only way to get back to the way it was is to hop in my time machine. COMON LETS GO!!!!  |
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Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:13 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
Hell Yeah, I'll come along!
P.S. I dont work for OSI. I said UO USED to be great. It sucks major ass now. Not because of graphics or time etc, but because the devs ruined it. Ultima X doesnt look much better.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:16 pm |
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Kiff
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Indiana |
Yeah UXO is a disappointment for me already. They've already stated it is an RPG/A. I don't want an action game. I like roleplaying. I like have the abilily to craft, or fish, or knitt a pretty pink sweater. Emm.
But you know Chekote, remember when all you heard from the beggining of the game was "OSI sucks, they never do anything." Now look, they've done what the majority wanted to do and the majority ruined the game. During the times when ppl were spaming "OSI sucks" I was silently saying to myself. Please don't change the game. I thought it was great. But greedy OSI wanted more money and to do that they made the game the majority wanted.
Maybe everyone is seeing now that EQ = A Tale in the Desert = boring. (sorry for bashing ATitD I've never played it, but NO combat, haha) Anyway, PvP is needed, it is what can balance a game, and it is what makes a game just that....a game. I play Chess all the time, I loose all the time, but do I quit. It's not fun to loose, but it is a game and a challenging one at that. That is PvP...your wits vs. another real persons.
Where's that damn key to my time machine.... |
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Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:25 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Kiff
Maybe everyone is seeing now that EQ = A Tale in the Desert = boring. (sorry for bashing ATitD I've never played it, but NO combat, haha)
You shouldn't bash ATITD. Even without fighting, it was one of the most intense games I've ever played. Probably because all that you do in this game is in relation to other people, unlike other MMOGs which allow you to play them like single player games.
But all that aside, it seems that a lot of people contributing to this thread are not aware of Trials of Ascension(sp?) and should be.
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Thu Sep 04, 2003 11:34 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
ATitD is boring? It's obvious you have never played it. Or read the forums. 
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Thu Sep 04, 2003 11:41 pm |
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Ligi
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 39
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How can you say ATITD is boring without even playing it before? LOL
ATITD is a very refreshing game, brought new concepts to the genre, opened new possibilities, has a awesome community and incredible costumer suport.
If PvP its your thing, thats ok, all should respect that. Why dont you respect the diference too? |
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Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:28 am |
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Kiff
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Indiana |
Stop shooting stop shooting. Sorry, the only thing I've ever heard about ATitD is that it is a MMORPG with no combat. But from the looks from the last 3 post I guess its more than a walk around in the desert. Maybe I'll check out the fourms. You've peaked my interests.  Anyone have a link?
Anyway back to PvP, any else think PvP is what balances a game? Maybe, maybe not, but you can't argue that if open PvP is in a game it add a thrilling aspect to the game as a whole. |
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Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:27 pm |
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RedTiger
Village Leader
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 93
Location: Center of Chaos |
Thanks for the links on ATitD Ligi. I'd never heard of this one before. It looks like a pretty cool alternative to the medieval combat based ones i've gotten used to. How many non-combat MMORPG's are out now? |
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Fri Sep 05, 2003 3:48 pm |
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Kiff
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Indiana |
I know of ATitD and Sims Online. Thats all I know of, but I don't pay much attention to games other than my medieval combat mmo's.
Ok so on those two games, any greifing going on in there? Is there even death in those game? |
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Fri Sep 05, 2003 3:58 pm |
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vaticide
Put food in here
Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 1122
Location: One step behind a toddler bent on destruction. |
Two that I know of: ATITD, and Sims Online. I beta tested both and I can assure you that ATITD is the only of the two worth trying. (Used to be Motor City Online, but it folded in the past few days or so)
Swinging this back to PvP...
(On Kiff asserting PvP balances a game)
PvP has a balancing effect on games, but I wouldn't say that it balances games. It is more like it inserts a potential for imbalance and then forces you to balance for that. I'm not sure that there is any net balance gain from adding PvP. To make everyone capable of besting another of similar power in the game you have to strive hard for balance. This was very apparent in Ultima Online where the power swung from bows to swords to magic and back frequently. You could usually tell which was best because that is what everyone was using.
One of the reasons PvP worked so well in Ultima Online is there was no class system. This is the same reason that PvP in EQ would have been wretched. UO approached balance by trying to make all of the weapons equally effective. EQ and most (all?) other class based games approach balance through Rock/Paper/Scissors reasoning. Wizards should be able to beat these people, warriors should beat wizards, etc. Then they are also set up for group combat, where you now have support classes. I can vouch that as a support class character you had roughly a 0.01% chance of ever beating someone in 1 on 1 combat. I don't think full PvP would ever work in such a class based environment. Rock/Paper/Scissors balancing works with a limit of three categories, and even then the rocks will complain if a paper attacks them because they have no way of defending themselves on their own.
-vaticide |
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Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:07 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Griefing in ATitD? Oh my, yes. If you really want to tick someone off, fill their camp with bonfires made up of 20 wood each so it pushes up the crowding level and they can't build anything. There are multiple ways of griefing, however, if you grief people, then expect chilly receptions from other players. Reputation is everything in that game.
As for death? If you are banned, you're dead. Otherwise, you have nothing to worry about. Although it's always cute (as well as hilarious) when a noobie runs screaming from a beetle.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:32 pm |
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Kardosh
Village Dweller
Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 3
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Hey guys, new to this forum, but an interesting topic.
I agree with another poster, griefers should NOT be eliminated from the games. In a strange and twisted way they provide a needed service. Without griefers there really wouldn't be much excitement in any game, no reason to be on your toes or looking over your shoulder. There would be no reason for good guys, antis or PK-killers, to exist.
IMHO what really is lacking from most current games is accountability. It is something that has been often promised and seldom delivered. The best games give players the option of playing as they see fit, but extract some sort of accountability for ones actions. What turns Pking into griefing is when it is done with no consequenses and very little risk to those involved. I am hopeful that Horizons alignment system may make strides in this direction, but I believe that accountability is what is sorely lacking and will (if done properly) bring griefing into an acceptable balance.
If I decide to take my level 50 Uber-warrior out and terrorize newbies how am I held accountable? In most games, quite simply, I am not. There is certainly no danger from my victims and if they are unguilded, little if any chance of retribution. Even if they are guilded, there is seldom any real immediate (or long-term) danger and if a group of his friends show up I will simply recall.
To balance out this situation several things need to happen:
1. Some system that holds me accountable for my actions - guards will hunt me down or kill me on sight in towns is one possible solution. Of course, even this is more complicated than it seems. In Shadowbane many griefers (and even griefer guilds) found that once they leveled up thier characters they had no need for cities and in fact cities became a liability, so some balance along these lines is needed.
2. Combat systems need to be adjusted to reflect legitimate PvP play. In Shadowbane griefers (individuals or groups) simply run into an area which they know will be heavily camped and begin to terrorize people leveling. There is really very little risk, even when the victims are higher level. In practice, the griefers wait until the group is in mid-pull and then attack. Add to this the inherent advantage of being the attacker, being in the best gear and usually having characters which have been developed exclusively as Pkers, and they will seldom if ever experience any loses until the inhabitants can raise a large party to deal with the invaders. This may take some while, and in some cases may not be realistic at all. If it does happen, i.e. the griefers suddenly find themselves out-numbered and on the recieving end, they will simply recall or be summoned back to safety. This was a recurring theme in Shadowbane, and IMHO it is this lack of accountability, not the PKing itself, that contributes so prominently to players frustrations. The grifers have reigned terror on your friends, disrupted your game play and caused you serious financial harm and all with virtually no risk and no consequences. While systems like Horizon's proposed alignments may help add consequences developers also need to address the risk factors. I believe this can be done fairly easily by adjusting existing systems. Factors like not being able to recall or be transported during, or for some reasonable length of time after, combat would help hold griefers accountable. They could no longer simply recall at the first sight of trouble. This makes them weigh their actions a bit more carefully, and also gives the little guys a chance at retribution.
IMHO it is this type of accountability that is need to balance out griefing/PKing - the game experience overall would surely decline if we were ever able to simply eliminate it.
Kardosh |
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Fri Sep 05, 2003 7:31 pm |
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