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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Well, my readings regarding Sunblockers and "Aspartame" products comes from documents using danish language, however I guess I have found a few pages, which discuss the mentioned problems in english!
For sunblokers:
Look Here and look under "Not recommended" chemical ingredienses (Half way down the page. These strange and long "names of mentioned chemical products are quite common in normal sunblockers, and their names look quite familiar with the names we discussed in Danmark last summer (Eventhough I can't remember their full names, though I have written them down somewhere in case I have to go buy sunblockers again.
For Aspartame:
Look here . The list of illnesses and bad ailments this product is suspicious to cause is quite long.
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Fri Oct 18, 2002 9:29 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
On sunblockers (we call them sunscreens), I've never heard of any potential safety issues even though this is a product *every* Australian household has. With the highest rate of skin-cancer in the world and a dominant "beach culture", we even have federal government health campaigns every summer to promote sunscreen use. |
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Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:36 pm |
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goshuto
Wanderer
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1142
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About fuel-cell powered cars, GM is not the only one doing research. Several other companies already have working prototypes, and there are even buses which already use fuel-cell to power their A/C & heating systems when their engine is off (so idling can be avoided)
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"Tree stuck in cat. Firemen baffled."--Simcity 3K
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."--Soren Aabye Kierkegaard |
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Sat Oct 19, 2002 6:44 pm |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
Yes, BMW is perhaps the farthest ahead in the automotive fuel-cell industry. They have new 750hl's (which will cost about 100,000 dollars each  ) So far, there are two fuel stations, one is California, and one somewhere in Europe, and about a dozen of the cars in each continent. 
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Make good choices. |
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Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:04 pm |
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mDrop
High Emperor
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 479
Location: Under the desk |
The 750hl has a hydrogen combustion engine, which is fundamentally different from fuel cell approach, although BMW uses fuelcells to produce power in 750hl. I'm not sure about fuel-cells, but hydrogen combustion engines still emit NOx because of the high temperature needed.
Additionally, most of the 750hl chassis and mechanics are from a normal BMW, without any other modification. The GM, on the other hand, has a whole new concept for a car, with drive-by-wire and other inventions.
I'm not sure about the benefits of these two different approaches to hydrogen technology, but somehow the fuel-cell approach seems better. Still, BMW is doing a lot of important work with it's improvements and really pushing for a good hydrogen infrastructure.
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"If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance."
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Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:29 pm |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
quote:
Originally posted by mDrop
The 750hl has a hydrogen combustion engine
See what I don't learn from just looking at the pictures? 
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Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:37 pm |
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mDrop
High Emperor
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 479
Location: Under the desk |
 Still, the BMW looks quite nice. One of them was on display here during this fall's Neste Rally. Too bad they didn't let people take it for a test drive 
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Tue Oct 22, 2002 1:34 am |
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txiabxyooj
Fox Spirit
Joined: 06 Dec 2001
Posts: 971
Location: here, there & everywhere |
anyone have a link to that BMW? i understand that the GM is really versitile because they base the entire car off of some sort of spine. i guess you can switch chasis without much trouble. just imagine, you decide you don't like the look of your car so you just go in and buy a new skin for it. or, you get in a minor fender bender and instead of having all sorts of body work done they just pull off the old body and place a new one on it. it will be a car that takes after barbie. if you don't like the look you just go out and buy a new outfit. 
EDIT--sorry for the typos
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"The origin of things, if things have an origin, cannot be revealed to me, if revealed at all, until I have travelled very far from it, and many revolutions of the sun must precede my first dawn. The light as it appears hides the candle." --Santayana
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=member of the Non-flamers' guild= |
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Wed Oct 23, 2002 5:02 pm |
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mDrop
High Emperor
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 479
Location: Under the desk |
Here's a link to BMW's CleanEnergy site:
http://www.bmw.com/bmwe/efficient_dynamics/cleanenergy/index.html
The GM base looks like an oversized skateboard, with wheels on sides. GM itself calls the concept skateboard. When you first see the pictures, it may seem a bit thick, but it's still under 30cm so the cars won't look too tall, like many hydrogen concept cars have.
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"If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance."
- George Bernard Shaw
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Wed Oct 23, 2002 6:26 pm |
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txiabxyooj
Fox Spirit
Joined: 06 Dec 2001
Posts: 971
Location: here, there & everywhere |
thanks for the link. that car looks really nice.
_________________
"The origin of things, if things have an origin, cannot be revealed to me, if revealed at all, until I have travelled very far from it, and many revolutions of the sun must precede my first dawn. The light as it appears hides the candle." --Santayana
=member of the worshippers of the written word=
=member of the Non-flamers' guild= |
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Thu Oct 24, 2002 7:42 pm |
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goshuto
Wanderer
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1142
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Hydrogen sounds nice, but how is it stored in the car? Is that pure hydrogen? If it isn't, then it could be highly flammable and in gas state; not exactly what I'd call safe. If it's pure, then I believe contact with oxygen in the air could "turn" it into water, right? (I could be wrong, chemistry never was my forte )
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"Tree stuck in cat. Firemen baffled."--Simcity 3K
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."--Soren Aabye Kierkegaard |
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Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:08 pm |
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vaticide
Put food in here
Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 1122
Location: One step behind a toddler bent on destruction. |
@goshuto: When hydrogen burns it produces water when oxygen is present. The reaction requires heat, however, to get started. It is a chain reaction, and thus if gasseous hydrogen is released and a spark triggers it in the presence of oxygen, it will explode. It isn't the most explosive thing in the world by any means, not is it that hot of an explosion; not that you would want to be around.
Another thing people don't point out when they are talking about how clean hydrogen is as a fuel because it produces primarily water as an exhaust neglect to mention where the hydrogen comes from. Usually hydrogen is produced by electrolysis of water, which is done with electricity. Sure, solar, wind and tidal power are clean sources of electricity, but if we were to use hydrogen as a primary fuel source we would need a whole lot more electricity than we currently produce, since it requires more electricity than the refining of oil. Thus it is likely that these clean cars, and even electric cars are producing toxins in the environment, although somewhat removed from the actual consumer. Whether radioactive material at a nuclear power plant, air pollution from a coal power plant, or dead fish/ecological problems from hydroelectric power, these cars aren't necessarily clean. (Although cleaner, and more responsible than cars fueled by fossil fuels, however)
-vaticide |
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Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:19 pm |
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Erb Duchenne
Slayer
Joined: 08 Jun 2002
Posts: 987
Location: malaysia |
If I'm not mistaken, fuel cells create electric power from chemical exchange. More accurately, using hydrogen. Hydrogen conbustion engines burn hydrogen. The exhaust is supposed to be pure water. Sounds clean. But exhaust from fossil fuel combustion is supposed to be carbon dioxide and water. Sounds pretty clean too. In reality, a lot more noxious stuff comes off the exhaust pipes.
I don't get the harnessing of hydrogen from water theory though. It'll take as much power to remove hydrogen from the oxygen in water as combining them will produce. Add in some inefficiency, heat loss, sound production... there's a net deficit. Same thing with fusion and antimatter. Theoretically they produce a lot power. But making the fuel requires a cost about twenty million times that of fission (which we use currently). Where's the gain? It's a fine concept if the fuel is already abundant ie, we didn't have to make it. Or maybe I just don't understand it properly. Will someone explain to me?
And yes, I've heard or read somewhere that petroleum is a lot more combustible than hydrogen. It's much more explosive, but it takes much more energy to start it off. Either way, whether it's a petrol explosion or hydrogen explosion... you'll die just the same. But petrol is much easier to set off.
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Fri Oct 25, 2002 5:22 pm |
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mDrop
High Emperor
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 479
Location: Under the desk |
The storing of hydrogen should be quite safe. They have conducted many field tests where the hydrogen tanks have been punctured or smashed violently. They should be as safe as petroleum tanks, if not safer.
BMW's concept of creating hydrogen involves the use of solar power, to overcome the fact that making hydrogen costs a lot of power. In their vision, the hydrogen would be produced in the coastal areas with a high percentage of sunny days. Wind power could be used too, in the areas where the weather is windy most of the time. That would be suitable for many coastal areas, so both the source for power and hydrogen would be endless.
The power plants would be primarily for the hydrogen production plants, but excess energy could be distributed to the nearby towns. I think it could work. The initial cost of creating a power plant/hydrogen plant-combination would be big for sure, but after that it should be pretty profitable business. Besides, the energy companies have a lot of money and when they see the benefits, they will most likely invest in these plants. BMW's got the backing of some major companies who are beginning to see the fact that they can't make money out of fossile fuels forever and they need to change.
Hydrogen can be transported quite safely, just as safely as oil from the locations it's being made in. One plus is that hydrogen spillage from for example a tanker would be lot more enviromentally friendly than oil spillage.
Fossil fuel combustion engine creates a lot more pollution, even in theory. It's not just carbon dioxide and water, mostly because of the extreme heat that is produced in the burning. Hydrogen combustion engines produce NOx-gasses too, because of the high temperature, but the amount is a lot smaller.
I see the hydrogen as the only way to create a sustainable framework for personal transportation. Fuel-cell technology could be used to power electric trains as well, since they can store large fuel cell-hydrogen tank combinations. I'm not sure how well hydrogen can be used to power airplanes and ships, but I imagine that atleast some can be adjusted to use hydrogen combustion/fuel cell technology.
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"If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance."
- George Bernard Shaw
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Fri Oct 25, 2002 6:54 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by vaticide
@goshuto: When hydrogen burns it produces water when oxygen is present. The reaction requires heat, however, to get started. It is a chain reaction, and thus if gasseous hydrogen is released and a spark triggers it in the presence of oxygen, it will explode. It isn't the most explosive thing in the world by any means, not is it that hot of an explosion; not that you would want to be around.
Another thing people don't point out when they are talking about how clean hydrogen is as a fuel because it produces primarily water as an exhaust neglect to mention where the hydrogen comes from. Usually hydrogen is produced by electrolysis of water, which is done with electricity. Sure, solar, wind and tidal power are clean sources of electricity, but if we were to use hydrogen as a primary fuel source we would need a whole lot more electricity than we currently produce, since it requires more electricity than the refining of oil. Thus it is likely that these clean cars, and even electric cars are producing toxins in the environment, although somewhat removed from the actual consumer. Whether radioactive material at a nuclear power plant, air pollution from a coal power plant, or dead fish/ecological problems from hydroelectric power, these cars aren't necessarily clean. (Although cleaner, and more responsible than cars fueled by fossil fuels, however)
-vaticide
I am glad some one brought up this point - I was too lazy (or busy, take your pick) to bring it up before. Let me say it again:
While electric cars and hydrogen fuel cell sound clean the electricity used to get the H2 or charge the battery is still comming from burning fossil fuels.
In fact, since no conversion is 100% effecient you have to burn MORE gas to get the same power out of secondary source (batteries or H2). And when you consider the huge energy loss transimitting electricity down power lines batteries are even LESS effecient.
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Wed Oct 30, 2002 6:37 pm |
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