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quote:
Originally posted by Saint_Proverbius
Here's a fun little tip: The only people that are worried about maturity are those people who aren't.
How very ZEN!
Wow, you really got me... 
Sorry, I don't take lessons from people like you, especially about maturity. Go back to your wonderful website, and give those lessons to someone who may care, or need them. I have any idea: how about Exitium? Or maybe yourself?
Last time I checked I was on RPGDot. If I wanted to see your lovely "wit" I would go to your website... |
Mon May 30, 2005 8:58 pm |
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint_Proverbius
quote:
Originally posted by roqua1
He doesn't understand the difference between an rpg an a TBS and he thinks Diablo is an rpg.
Hey, it's that guy who said not to buy any action CRPGs because they'll all crappy - except Dungeon Lords, because D.W. Bradley put his name on it.
I've never told anyone to buy DL. I never said action rpgs are crappy because there isn't any action rpgs. There are action games and there are rpgs and there are tbs's. I told everyone to wipe the sand out of their ginies and stop crying like pansies. And I bring up that everything they say bad about DL is prominant in other games they love, so why judge it by a double standard? Should hypocrates get a free ride? I don't like DL as I am not an action game fan, but at least it provides somewhat of a challenge when compared to the generic, shinny, moronic crap that gets reviews in the 90's from the major sites.
I respect the people at the codex for giving smaller games the limelight such as prelude to darkness (a game I would probably of never found if not for rpgcodex), but for the bigger games you guys are all over the place and seem to not have any set criterion for reviews. How can you judge toee for having an overly large dungeon but love diablo 2? Diablo 2 is an overly large dungeon. Thats all it is. Thats it. An overly large dungeon and all you do in the game is hit the mouse button over and over and over. The only strategy in d2 is in pvp, and pvp isn't part of the sp game. So for you guys it seems the big name shiny crap gets a free ride, and the little devs get a free ride, and anyone who tries to make the big shiny crap a little differently or a little deeper gets slammed. The same could be said about the statement you made against bloodlines but not against the kotors.
Trokia didn't choose to close down, their lack of working capital and no furute cash flows slated from contracts closed them down. The only chance any of them have of making a real rpg again is going to work for Nival in russia, the last of the fancy graphic good guys. Buts thats just my opinion, as money talks and no game I really liked has been a big hit since the mid 90's. And if everyone that claimed to be a J Vogel fan actually bought his games he would probably be siting pretty, but since he's not I highly doubt its true. Escpecially since graphics count so much to today's 'rpg" fans. People actually complained about the graphics in the action game bloodlines, which had the best graphics I've ever seen on my computer hands down. And dl's graphics are right up there with it. But maybe I need glasses as the graphics in wiz 8 still impress me, especially the reflective tile floors and how the enemies get more beat up looking as they get beat up. |
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Mon May 30, 2005 10:56 pm |
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Saint_Proverbius
Head Merchant
Joined: 08 Dec 2001
Posts: 61
Location: Shady Sands |
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
I've never told anyone to buy DL. I never said action rpgs are crappy because there isn't any action rpgs. There are action games and there are rpgs and there are tbs's.
And like I said, what makes ToEE an RPG and JA2 not one? Just because one has guns and the other swords doesn't put them in two different genres. They're both dungeon crawlers.
quote:
And I bring up that everything they say bad about DL is prominant in other games they love, so why judge it by a double standard? Should hypocrates get a free ride?
Dungeon Lords sounded crappy from the day it was announced. That's the difference and that's what was pointed out. Exitium seems to think there's hope for non-crappiness in Dungeon Siege 2, while most of the rest of the staff don't really see that. That's why his posts on the subject are more positive while everyone elses are either, "Well, that might help" or "So, more crappiness?" commentaries.
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I respect the people at the codex for giving smaller games the limelight such as prelude to darkness (a game I would probably of never found if not for rpgcodex), but for the bigger games you guys are all over the place and seem to not have any set criterion for reviews.
You're right. We all have different opinions on different things. Sometimes we're in agreement, but there's no HIVE-MIND requirement for my staff.
The only requirement we have for reviews is that there's no such thing as a perfect game, so don't write a review as though the game is perfect. Point out the problems in a game, even though you may really like the game because most sites won't point out what they didn't like about a game. Those that do point out problems will only point out a problem another review has posted before them.
So, no, there's not really a set criteria for reviews.
quote:
How can you judge toee for having an overly large dungeon but love diablo 2? Diablo 2 is an overly large dungeon. Thats all it is. Thats it. An overly large dungeon and all you do in the game is hit the mouse button over and over and over.
My main problem with the overly large dungeon in ToEE was that there were no shops and places to rest in ToEE's dungeon. Diablo 2 didn't have those issues because mana and health regenerated over time and you could always town portal back to town in order to sell your ph4t l3wt.
Obviously ToEE wouldn't have town portals and regeneration of spells and health because it's D&D. So, the dungeon should have had places to rest as well as shops where you can unload your inventories rather than walking all the way back to Nulb to do that.
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The only strategy in d2 is in pvp, and pvp isn't part of the sp game.
That's hardly true. The strategy in single player comes from building a character that doesn't become useless at some point.
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So for you guys it seems the big name shiny crap gets a free ride, and the little devs get a free ride, and anyone who tries to make the big shiny crap a little differently or a little deeper gets slammed. The same could be said about the statement you made against bloodlines but not against the kotors.
Refresh my memory on that. When have I ever not been critical about BioWare's CRPGs? Even the ones I've enjoyed, which would just be KotOR, still had the problems of the one-trick-pony BioWare over uses.
quote:
Trokia didn't choose to close down, their lack of working capital and no furute cash flows slated from contracts closed them down.
Actually, they did choose to close down. Not having a contract was one of the big reasons for this choice, but they were also tired of dealing with the rat race.
quote:
People actually complained about the graphics in the action game bloodlines, which had the best graphics I've ever seen on my computer hands down.
As far as graphics go in Bloodlines, my only big complaint with them is that the player models lacked any sort of customization. I kind of feel silly for making that complaint, because it doesn't really affect the gameplay. I've just gotten used to CRPGs allowing me to tailor my avatar, and Bloodlines didn't have that.
I never thought I'd miss something like that in a game, but I sure missed it in Bloodlines.
quote:
But maybe I need glasses as the graphics in wiz 8 still impress me, especially the reflective tile floors and how the enemies get more beat up looking as they get beat up.
Dungeon Lords just looked kind of washed out to me, but that's not why I didn't like the demo. I didn't like the demo because the combat felt clumsy, and the constant spawning monsters really got on my nerves. |
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Tue May 31, 2005 7:41 pm |
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r1
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The difference between toee and ja2 is one is a rpg and the other is a tbs (turn-based strategy). The combat mechanics might be similar but the games have two totally different missions. Rpgs are a divergence of war games. The mission of war games (or strategic board games) was to be a combat engine. The purpose of a rpg was to provide rules for people who wanted to create their own story, like a blank book you have to fill limited by the game rules and your imagination.
If JA 1 or 2 were to be made into a pen and paper game it wouldn’t be an rpg, it would be a strategy game. You have to gain and hold territory and defend it with units. Same with warhammer and whfrp, wh has upgradable units that gain xp, whfrp has characters that gain skill and xp. Most rpgs have a large scale combat mechanic that turns it from an rpg to a strategy game such as D&D add-on books, tRoS (in tFoB book), and Harn’s battlelust system.
Though the mechanics are similar the mission is totally different. Both JA and x-com could be turned into an rpg, but they are tbs’s and not rpgs. Different rules and mechanics would be needed to make them rpgs.
Buck Rogers rpg with the modified ad&d rules has guns and is an rpg. Guns and swords don’t make something an rpg. World of Darkness is modern and is an rpg. Shadowrunner and other cyberpunk rpgs are rpgs, and future sci-fi rpgs such as Traveler are rpgs. But Orion is a computer strategy game, not an rpg.
“That's hardly true. The strategy in single player comes from building a character that doesn't become useless at some point.”
It is impossible to gimp your character in a blizzard game, maybe in diablo 1 if you just pump up intelligence all the way you could as a warrior but that was corrected in d2 and wow with the ungimpable character progression. But like in wow, if you min-max you can create a more effective character but that only matters in pvp, not pve; d2 is the same.
And character creation and progression doesn’t make a crpg, as Black and White and Republic the Revolution show. Just because the medium changes doesn’t mean the reasoning behind it does. Why is “Good Morning Vietnam” a drama instead of a comedy?
“Refresh my memory on that. When have I ever not been critical about BioWare's CRPGs? Even the ones I've enjoyed, which would just be KotOR, still had the problems of the one-trick-pony BioWare over uses.”
Bloodlines had a linear main plot and sub-quests, just like the kotors, just like Geneforge, or most other games. D2 didn’t even have that, it was just a straight linear shot with subquests that didn’t even take you out of the way of the main plot. Why hold it against one game and not all of them? “I enjoyed Bloodlines' side quests, but didn't like the linear story mission scheme and many of the missions associated with it.”—SP
And I understand that different people have different tastes and their reviews will have different criterion from other people’s reviews who have different tastes and preferences, but their own reviews have no set criterion. The hold something against one game but not another. I can’t stand that. It is hypocrisy and it drives me nuts. That just nullifies anything the reviewer says. Like with all the DL reviews saying it has old-school rpg game play. No it doesn’t, and no one that said that has been able to articulate the point other than saying “yeah-huh.”
What old school game had mechanics remotely like it that hasn’t been in recent games that haven’t been dubbed old school? The dungeon crawl with puzzles wasn’t in D2? Arx Fatalis? DivDiv? Etc, so on and so on? Its nonsense. And the combat in DL (good, bad, clumsy, or not) is different than any what people label as rpgs that I have played. Besides its based off of the old click-click-click over and over Diablo formula, except it has other options and actions I could do if my hands worked with me, but they don’t so I click-click-click, like in Diablo.
In fact, there aren’t any old-school action rpgs with combat at all like DL and most new rpgs are a dungeon romp with puzzles, so people can spout out their nonsense and the lemmings can soak it up and spout it back out to others, but a lie is a lie and nonsense is nonsense.
If you don’t like DL that’s fine, I don’t like it much either, just don’t hold games to different standards of nonsense. DL, too me, is a good action game, and I would like it a lot more if I liked action games. Bloodlines was a good action game and I would like it a lot more if I liked action games. But I don’t. Same with the impossible mount and blade. I hate and love that game. It took me about 8 hours to get out of training.
But the point is everything bad people say about DL is prominent in plenty of games that got ratings in the 90’s and was never mentioned or held against those games.
Now your point about Trokia choosing to close down. I’m sure they could of got a contract if they totally submitted to the publishers demands and made a shinny, moronic, shallow, unmature game but that’s not what they did. And that’s not what publishers want. What did they say publishers said when they mentioned TB combat for an upcoming title? People might complain about all the Dibalo clones but those games sell, and that’s what the people want, and that’s what the publishers are willing to finance. Anything else or any dev with a shady track record they will under finance and keep as much control over the game as possible. So people get mad at devs like troika and hp for trying to do something different and having the balls to deal with ass sucking publishers and go toe to toe with them instead of being a good dev that follows their sage advice. I don’t like their sage advice. And I hate the fact that almost every genre of computer games are getting more advanced and more difficult and rpgs are getting streamlined and dummed down.
As technologies improve and rpg makers are more and more able to provide a true to life pen and paper experience they move farther and farther away from doing that. And any dev that tries anything different gets attacked by a mob of angry internet posters telling them how bad they suck and that they are a hack. The hacks to me are the sell out main stream lemmings. They might be successful rich hacks, but they are still hacks to me.
“As far as graphics go in Bloodlines, my only big complaint with them is that the player models lacked any sort of customization. I kind of feel silly for making that complaint, because it doesn't really affect the gameplay. I've just gotten used to CRPGs allowing me to tailor my avatar, and Bloodlines didn't have that.”
Neither did D2 or plenty of other recent games that people love and never held against the title. |
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Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:47 pm |
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