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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Lysander
quote:
Originally posted by Gorath
Do you expect them to invest in their weaknesses instead of focusing on their strength?
That is exactly what they need to do. It's called "growth."
No, this is called "Loss of focus". Their English is not on the professional level you could expect from a retail game. This would harm the product. Then the translation to German would damage the game even more because it can“t be as good as the 'original'. As a result you have an amateurish English version and a crappy German version.
Being good in every department is impossible with a limited budget. The main focus should be on maintaining their grip on the German market. Investing a bit in the preparations for the localizations sounds like a good idea, though. Hiring a good author to polish the texts could work wonders.
What the publisher(s) do about marketing and distribution is not their business. Localization is typically a publisher“s job, but I think PB played a role in it.
quote:
Gamers are very reluctant to take a chance on Gothic. What I would do is acquire the rights to Gothic I, which should be cheap at this point, and put the full version on the cover disc of a major English-language magazine, along with at least an English demo of G2, possibly the full version (depending on other factors), which cosmetic updates to both, such as pixel shaders and bump mapping.
Put them both on a mag? The result would be:
1. Gothic is better known.
2. Support requests will skyrocket. (-> costs)
3. There“s nothing more to sell. Retail G2 is dead after the game was on a mag. The add-on will be preordered by the retailers based upon G2 retail sales.
4. Ergo: The franchise is dead.
_________________
Webmaster GothicDot |
Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:51 am |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
The whole publishing thing isn't as easy as it seems. 
Interesting discussion.
_________________
"Who are we to call this planet Earth, when it's clearly Ocean."
-- News Editor of GothicDot --
-- Moderator of the RPGDot Shadows --
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Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:46 am |
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Daedalus
High Emperor
Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 2516
Location: Estonia |
well it is actually simple but its all about the money you know if u dont have enough money then u cant make the biggest magz , television or other things to comercialize that product anywhere  |
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Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:28 pm |
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Lysander
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 265
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quote:
Originally posted by Spunior
quote:
I have a hard time believing the 98 million German speakers are playing more games than the 125 million Japanese and the 1 billion Chinese.
But the German market is the second biggest market when it comes to PC games. You can ask basically any major publisher.
Who said I was talking about the PC market alone? I'm talking about the game market. Is there some reason Gothic couldn't be on a console?
quote:
Originally posted by Spunior
Sure, there are 125 million people living in Japan. Too bad that the PC gaming market there is absolutely not significant? Ever thought about the reason why console games are the only kind of entertainment software ever making it to the Western market? Do you know a major Japanese PC developer?
Do you know a major European developer that doesn't make English releases a priority?
And once again, I was not talking about the PC market to the exclusion of all else.
quote:
1 billion Chinese.
quote:
Originally posted by Spunior
And you think the attachment rate is the same as in Germany? Not to mention that piracy is a huge problem in that market and many publishers don't release their games officialy over there in the first place. It's a market with future without any doubt, but it's not as profitable as the German one yet.
The only thing I took issue with is the size of the market; all other factors are irrelevant to my comment.
quote:
Because the English market is several times the German one.
quote:
Originally posted by Spunior
That's true for console games, if you're just looking at PC games, however, it's not that much bigger.
Again, is there some reason to disinclude consoles?
You're only thinking of native Anglophones. I'm including anyone who understands English well enough to play a game--about a billion people. Therefore it is much larger. |
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Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:52 am |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
So far console gamers are not part of the target audience. They“re irrelevant from a calculation standpoint. This leaves only the PC market. The situation in it has been explained above.
Simply put: The home market is usually the primary market for a game of a smaller dev, unless the publisher has enough power to go for worldwide simultaneous release.
Gothic is a mass market franchise in Germany. It will sell 6 digit numbers within a short time. In all other markets it“s a niche product, which sells slowly.
_________________
Webmaster GothicDot |
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Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:38 pm |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
quote:
Originally posted by Lysander
Do you know a major European developer that doesn't make English releases a priority?
Uhm...
Jowood? 
_________________
"Who are we to call this planet Earth, when it's clearly Ocean."
-- News Editor of GothicDot --
-- Moderator of the RPGDot Shadows --
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Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:27 pm |
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Patriot
Small Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 1421
Location: Athens,Greece |
quote:
Originally posted by Sem
quote:
Originally posted by Lysander
Do you know a major European developer that doesn't make English releases a priority?
Uhm...
Jowood?
Can't think anything else axcept jowood |
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Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:37 pm |
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werpu
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 21 Jul 2002
Posts: 27
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I am not from PB or Jowood, but I am a developer myself (not in the games area)
All I can say is that gameplaywise Gothic would have an easiert time with the console crowd who would not have that much problems with the control scheme.
But the problem is Gothic is close to impossible to be ported to the current generation of consoles.
The problem all comes down to one thing (well in G2s case two things) ram.
The Gothic developers opted for a huge zoning system - the maps to reduce loading times, then they added all the NPCs etc... there is no reloading in a map. Not a big deal for a modern PC with 256-512MB ram, with a graphics card of average 32-64MB which even can use lots of the normal ram as backpuffer.
Now compare that to a modern console:
If you are good then you have 64MB memory shared between graphics card and processor, if you are unlucky then you only have 32, you have limited save space on most consoles, which forces you to a savezone system which basically is close to impossible with gothics playing style. You can“t even properly store in Gothic2s case most of the textures the game has on the pc on those systems.
Maybe the next generation of consoles will be able to handle Gothic, but the current does not. Most 3d rpgs on the console simply use the trick of constant reloading, to bypass the ram limitations, gothic cannot really do that, unless you dumb down the ai considerably and make the gameplay which is very dynamic slow as molasses. |
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Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:07 pm |
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Spunior
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 117
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quote:
Do you know a major European developer that doesn't make English releases a priority?
Let's see: most of the German developers? Sacred basically was the first major Ascaron title not have an English version that didn't come out 6+ months after its German installment. Nevertheless, Germany has the highest priority for Ascaron and the sales performance of said title (100,000 copies within no time) outperformes the English version by far. Then you have companies like Sunflowers. Sure, they'd like to be successful on the English market. But they know their games will sell best on the German one. 1609 AD sold like 2.5 million copies worldwide. And 1.4 million (or 1.9m, I forgot) of that were sold in Germany, Austria and Switzerland.
It's not only German companies though. Divine Divinity was available over here months before the US version. And it's been a Top 10 title. Beyond Divinity came out first over here as well. I'm not even talking about the combination of the German and Eastern European markets. Silent Storm was quite successful in Russia (where it came out first) and did pretty solid in Germany (where it came out months before the US release). In the US it sold like 9,000 copies (= tanked). Why should these companies switch priorities? Hidden&Dangerous 2 sold more than 1 million copies. Operation Flashpoint sold more than 1.5 million copies. Guess where? The majority of the units were sold in countries like Germany or the Czech Republic. Same for titles like Vietcong or Mafia. Take a wild guess what the priorities of the corresponding developers and publishers are.
quote:
Again, is there some reason to disinclude consoles?
But we've been talking about PC games to begin with and your first post was in response to a remark on PC games, ya know. Last time I checked there's no console version of Gothic or Gothic 2, and despite earlier plans there never will. So, how exactly are consoles relevant when we're debating the sales performance of titles such as Gothic?
quote:
The only thing I took issue with is the size of the market; all other factors are irrelevant to my comment.
Ask a game developer about the size of the market. It doesn't matter to him how many people there are living in the country, to him the market is the number of people that could potentially buy his product. Ask a publisher and he'll define a market through the amount of revenue generated. That's what the markets are we're talking about, and that's where for instance Japan is irrelevant despite having a population of 125m. This particular country would be even irrelevant if we included console sales, because not to many Western products make it to the Japanese market, and only a few of them sell well. And none comes even close to what a successful Japanese games sell. So, even if there was a console version of Gothic II, chances are it would never get ported in the first place. And even if, it would not sell well.
quote:
Again, is there some reason to disinclude consoles?
Because we're debating PC games? Because a console version of Gothic wouldn't automatically guarantee loads of sales? Even German action
game like Yager had trouble finding its way onto the US market. |
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Sat Jun 19, 2004 1:01 am |
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Daedalus
High Emperor
Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 2516
Location: Estonia |
thats actually good also that they wont port Gothic series to consoles cos almost every famous game is ported there and all the sequels of them ruined theyr name for instance take Broken Sword 3 in mind , the 1 and 2 was the best adventure/quest games ever that time but in 3rd it became an Arcade almost :\ |
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Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:43 pm |
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Kaboodleschmitt
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 101
Location: Canada |
Personally, I think Gothic is fine the way it is. Nothing would be gained by making it in english, it would be just as good as it is now. The only possible thing that might be gained is, as was mentioned, the fact that it would be graphicaly comparable to most other games at the time. However, if this was done then the german version wouldn't be comparable, and they would lose some market there. Besides, if I made a game and the biggest market was, say, Korea, do you think I'd develope it in Korean? No, I'd stick to english which I know and feel comfortable with, not try to appeal to the biggest market possible. There are, no doubt many factors that we don't know about influencing their decision, and personally, I support them, whether they choose to do it in German, or in English.
_________________
My Website........My DA Fansite
..............Gothic 2.............. |
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Sat Jun 19, 2004 7:54 pm |
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Lysander
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 265
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorath
quote:
Originally posted by Lysander
quote:
Originally posted by Gorath
Do you expect them to invest in their weaknesses instead of focusing on their strength?
That is exactly what they need to do. It's called "growth."
No, this is called "Loss of focus". Their English is not on the professional level you could expect from a retail game. This would harm the product. Then the translation to German would damage the game even more because it can“t be as good as the 'original'. As a result you have an amateurish English version and a crappy German version.
I didn't say they should translate from English to German.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorath
Being good in every department is impossible with a limited budget. The main focus should be on maintaining their grip on the German market. Investing a bit in the preparations for the localizations sounds like a good idea, though. Hiring a good author to polish the texts could work wonders.
Sure, the main focus should be on maintaining what they've established. But they also need to expand. That would be best for PB, and thus best for us, the players; can you imagine a Gothic game with the budget of Morrowind? And--get this--actually delivered to the fans who are clammoring for it?
quote:
Originally posted by Gorath
quote:
Gamers are very reluctant to take a chance on Gothic. What I would do is acquire the rights to Gothic I, which should be cheap at this point, and put the full version on the cover disc of a major English-language magazine, along with at least an English demo of G2, possibly the full version (depending on other factors), which cosmetic updates to both, such as pixel shaders and bump mapping.
Put them both on a mag? The result would be:
1. Gothic is better known.
2. Support requests will skyrocket. (-> costs)
3. There“s nothing more to sell. Retail G2 is dead after the game was on a mag. The add-on will be preordered by the retailers based upon G2 retail sales.
4. Ergo: The franchise is dead.
Sorry, Gorath, but that's completely ridiculous reasoning. Here's a more sane progression:
1. Gothic is better known. (Support requests remain unchanged because a) players have no right to expect support for something that was free, and b) most of the issues are well-known and are discussed on forums such as this one.)
2. Gothic develops a large English-speaking fanbase.
3. PB is easily able to secure English-language publishing, which enables fans all over the world to play.
4. The budget for the next Gothic game is several times that for the previous games.
5. We get better, bigger Gothic games in a timely fashion.
6. Gothic influences the 3DRPG market, forcing improvements; we get better games across the board.
[I came back to this site for NotR news after a long absence, and remembered I never replied to you.] |
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Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:56 am |
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Rubix³
Head Merchant
Joined: 30 May 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Chicago - USA |
Last night, due to insomnia, I fired up Gothic I again. It made me worry. These two games are EXACTLY how I like them - and I'm sure most of you would agree.
My fear is this: Gothic I wasn't a huge international hit, II was a bit better in their eyes, and III? I'm worry that the devs are going to mainstream the gameplay to make III a bigger success. Gothic II caught a lot of eyes - even here in the US. I think the only thing that would soar it's sales here would be a complete revamp of the control system to fit the more "casual" gamer - WHICH WOULD BE A HUGE MISTAKE.
Never, ever, ever do I want these things to change about this game. I don't care if I have to use english mod packs the rest of my Gothic-gaming life. I want them to do what they have to do to sell in their primary areas, but don't modify anything (PLEASE PLEASE) to make the game more mainstream-ish and easier accepted. The people who gripe about the control scheme are the people who are unwilling to try anything new imo. I love the controls, I love the fighting system, NPC system - and I'm verrry afraid that these things will change in G3 to hit the bigger audience. |
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Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:44 pm |
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Lysander
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 265
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubix³
Last night, due to insomnia, I fired up Gothic I again. It made me worry. These two games are EXACTLY how I like them - and I'm sure most of you would agree.
My fear is this: Gothic I wasn't a huge international hit, II was a bit better in their eyes, and III? I'm worry that the devs are going to mainstream the gameplay to make III a bigger success. Gothic II caught a lot of eyes - even here in the US. I think the only thing that would soar it's sales here would be a complete revamp of the control system to fit the more "casual" gamer - WHICH WOULD BE A HUGE MISTAKE.
Never, ever, ever do I want these things to change about this game. I don't care if I have to use english mod packs the rest of my Gothic-gaming life. I want them to do what they have to do to sell in their primary areas, but don't modify anything (PLEASE PLEASE) to make the game more mainstream-ish and easier accepted. The people who gripe about the control scheme are the people who are unwilling to try anything new imo. I love the controls, I love the fighting system, NPC system - and I'm verrry afraid that these things will change in G3 to hit the bigger audience.
The control system is relatively minor; even if they were to make the controls closer to the standard FPS-type scheme, it would be trivial to allow "classic" controls, especially if the budget was larger, which would be a natural benefit of increased popularity.
The main problem is: Most gamers have never heard of Gothic. |
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Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:48 pm |
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Rubix³
Head Merchant
Joined: 30 May 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Chicago - USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Lysander
The control system is relatively minor; even if they were to make the controls closer to the standard FPS-type scheme, it would be trivial to allow "classic" controls, especially if the budget was larger, which would be a natural benefit of increased popularity.
The main problem is: Most gamers have never heard of Gothic.
I hear ya - I'm only speaking on what I'm worried about. |
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Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:53 pm |
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