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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
| RPGDot Feature: Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion - A Review |
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Although semi-retired, our site-founder and resident Elder Scrolls expert Rendelius returns to take a very detailed and personal look at the latest Elder Scrolls offering. Here's a snippet:<em><blockquote>Fact is, that Oblivion is an incredible, satisfying experience for me; fact is furthermore that I would certainly rate this game highly myself if I hadn't decided to NOT do a numerical rating at the end of the review. Yet beyond all the amazing things in Oblivion there are others that are bad - design decisions taken by Bethesda that might have been taken with good intentions but backfired. I consider the game rather unenjoyable for me the way Bethesda shipped it. This is said from the perspective of someone who is an old school role player and has good knowledge of the The Elder Scrolls (TES) lore. It's of course not unplayable in a technical way - it's just that… it doesn't feel right.
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<br>So: On the one hand, I think this is an outstanding game, and on the other hand I think it fails to deliver? Am I nuts? No. Let me explain.</em></blockquote>Head <a href="http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=1217">here</a> to read the entire article. |
Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:42 am |
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ikbenrichard
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i completly agree with this article. thnx to the mods its more enjoyable. its lacking hardcore but hee money first (masses) and then pleasure, right... |
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:45 am |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
In general I like the review, but my issue is shown in this quote:
quote:
Does it deserve the high ratings it has received? And again, my answer has three parts: Yes, no, and hell yes. Yes, because this game really is the next step in the series and works for most folks out there as it is. It's not a bigger game than Morrowind, it's a game of its own. Changes have been made, and it's good that Oblivion is more than a sequel. No, because I feel that they sometimes took the easy route when designing game mechanics, not the best route. And hell yes, because they once again included the construction set. So we can tune the game to our liking.
So - in response to whether or not the game is getting high scores on merit rather than hype, you say:
- The scores are deserved because most people seem to like it.
- The scores are *not* deserved because there are a host of demonstrable problems.
- The scores *are* deserved because they give the community tools to fix the problems.
Then you further solidify the supporting evidence for #2 later:
quote:
I still wonder why most of the reviews out there don't mention or elaborate on the obvious design roughness the release had. Some of them, like the issues with guild items, show up right in the beginning. Others should have been obvious after at least 20 hours into the game.
C'mon, man, get a spine! I agree with not giving a numeric score. I also agree that this is a wonderful game - but as you say there are loads of issues, bugs imbalance, a relatively weak main story that you can simply abandon even if you are in the middle of a major plot quest.
Does it deserve to get loads of attention? Yes. Should everyone with the hardware to play it go buy it now? Yes. Does it merit 90 - 100% scores? Heck NO!
Mike
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Dopelar effect (n.) The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:06 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
Well, that's a point where we disagree, actually 
I didn't critisize sites because they gave high scores, but because a couple of them didn't mention the problems. I furthermore think that DESPITE the problems the game has, it deserves the high scores. There is especially one sentence where you cite me incorrectly, and I suppose you did it to make this point yours :
"The scores *are* deserved because they give the community tools to fix the problems"
I meant it differently: They gave the community the tools to change the game and add content, not mainly to fix it. If changes are fixes, fine. But most changes will be just changes and additions. Programming a game with modability in mind is a good thing, and they deserve credit for that. The CS isn't meant to be a bugfixing tool, because a good part of the gamers out there will not get in touch with mods. They will adress the bugs themselves in an upcoming patch, and I think that's the right way to do it.
As I said in the review, Beth is known for their not so overwhelming QA-department. And it shouldn't be a big surprise with a game so big. My real critizism was with some design decisions. The CS can change most (not all) of them, and if you look at the number of mods for the scaled leveling and how differently they tackle the problem, you will see that it's pretty impossible to cater all tastes. And that's where the CS comes in.
Oblivion has a broad target audience. I think one should not assume that the way I or you like to play this game is the right one, just one of many.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:33 pm |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
Rendelius - wow that is one bi-polar review... I have nausea like when I get off a rollercoaster...
Ha ha I'm kidding of course... actually, the quality of the reviews at RpgDot (as few as they are  ) are the main reason why I took hold to this website and your review is very thoughtful - thank you!
If only the angry chimpanzees on the official boards could articulate themselves as well...
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:03 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
OK, I've played every TES game, including Battlespire. I'm currently playing Oblivion and loving it, though I must admit to using several mods as well. I think Rend has come out with one of the most BALANCED reviews of the game yet produced. None of the faults are horrendous, and many are personal. Mods fix this. I'm sure Beth will eventually issue a patch to address the major problems. I don't know how anyone can not enjoy this game in spite of a few design decisions which many people don't care for. Heck, I've yet to play any game that didn't have a few of those in it. How about the early controls for Gothic!! 
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If God said it, then that settles it!
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:06 pm |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
I furthermore think that DESPITE the problems the game has, it deserves the high scores.
I think it also deserves very high scores - but the insipid gushing I am seeing from ~75% of the reviews is what I'm complaining about.
One thing I will say - I don't believe it is fair to review a game based on *anything* but the 'out of box' experience. That is probably my biggest issue with so many of even the better reviews - when they see flaws, they say 'no biggie, fan mods will clear it up'. Even you, in this excellent review - after railing about the levelling, you glow about the fan mod to balance it, and then support near-perfect review scores despite the fact that you are no longer playing the game as shipped!
quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
There is especially one sentence where you cite me incorrectly, and I suppose you did it to make this point yours :
I did try to make it clear that those were my interpretations of what you were saying, rather than a direct quote - and provided the direct quote as well. And we really aren't far apart on this issue. You say:
quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
I meant it differently: They gave the community the tools to change the game and add content, not mainly to fix it.
I said 'problems' - for me, when someone sees something they want to change in the game - like levelling - that is a problem, and the CS gives a means to fix the problem. Loose terminology on my part, but I'm basically saying that I'm not sure how I feel about giving the game 'a pass' based on what might be possible (or even is already done) in the community.
quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
Oblivion has a broad target audience. I think one should not assume that the way I or you like to play this game is the right one, just one of many.
That is one of the most wonderful things about the game - and one of the biggest issues. If you can simply never play the main story, there is *no* main story. If you can leave during a plot critical moment and come back and find things waiting for you, there are *no* plot critical moments - and the game as a whole loses cohesion and believability.
Mike
_________________
Dopelar effect (n.) The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Check out my blog. |
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:26 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
quote:
Originally posted by txa1265
That is one of the most wonderful things about the game - and one of the biggest issues. If you can simply never play the main story, there is *no* main story. If you can leave during a plot critical moment and come back and find things waiting for you, there are *no* plot critical moments - and the game as a whole loses cohesion and believability.
Mike
Well, freedome comes at a price, doesn't it? On one hand, they could force you to do the main quest before doing anything else (it seems silly to not deliver the amulet when matters are pressing like they are), on the other hand, they can let you play the game you want. It's hard to stay coherent in game design, then. But I don't consider this a design flaw, I consider it a necessary compromise.
If you offer complete freedom together with logical timed plot progression and correct consequences, the options you have to deal with will be countless. That's out of reach for even the most ambitious game project nowadays.
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Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:44 pm |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
quote:
Originally posted by txa1265
One thing I will say - I don't believe it is fair to review a game based on *anything* but the 'out of box' experience. That is probably my biggest issue with so many of even the better reviews - when they see flaws, they say 'no biggie, fan mods will clear it up'.
Normally, I'd agree with this. However, one of the 'features' of oblivion is that it is designed in a way that allows for robust modding. If the moddability of oblivion were more of an afterthought, you'd have more of an argument. But the modability of Oblivion is a major feature (pc of course).
So I'm sure this played into some design decision making by Bethesda that they could take a certain route in terms of gameplay, and the fanbase could then alter that route. And this type of thing is really 'par for the course' with the TES game series.
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:03 pm |
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I think Oblivion is intentionally designed so that people can dip in the imaginary world and enjoy what they want. Some old school CRPG players may not be happy with some design decisions but if you are not gamers who dedicate lot of their spare time on CRPG, the most of the design decisions are rather welcome. In fact, the eyes of the majority value the game-play balance over the consistencies of the world, which can explain many sites do not seem to regard it a problem but a solution of it. I myself found it odd that the bestiality becomes totally deferent in weeks but at least I am not experiencing boring encounters. (Gothic II is more story-focused RPG and doesn't let you reach some areas till you complete some quests following the story. Most of people seem to play as a melee character but, if you play it as a magician, you can feel the restriction. Some even say that the expansion is almost impossible to complete with magic-only character.) Also, I use the fast travel system in the first occasion since I rather spend my time on enjoying quests.
I think that Oblivion is not a perfect game and it is by design. This is not Bethesda didn't do their job but they did their part well. I convinced myself that that Bethesda was glancing at their mod community while making Oblivion. In fact, if Bethesda had decided to do everything by themselves for more hardcore fans, they are not enjoying mod-"fixed" version by now. They made a win-win result somewhat. Oblivion is designed for people to fill in the blanks. They were successful in offering everyone's game if slightly later for more dedicated fans through the mod community, which may become a clue for other RPG developers.
Unfortunately for me, what I liked with Morrowind is not what mods can fix in weeks. I liked the originality of the world, especially complex politics and beliefs. I am enjoying Oblivion but somewhat generic guilds are not as fun for my taste. I knew this coming before I touched the game, though. Cyrodiil is rather organized compared with the melting pot of Morrowind. Guess not win-win in my case but I feel I shouldn’t be complaining since the improved game-play is definitely welcome. |
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:29 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
I agree with Mike. Only the officially supplied version of the game should be relevant. This means the game as it is out of the box plus the latest official patch.
The editor is a great feature which will have a positive effect on long term sales, but this has no influence on the actual game. The subject of the review is the developer´s (or publisher´s) shipped product.
How the mod improve the game has no positive effect on the review. More the opposite, IMHO. The fact that within a few weeks a hundred small mods by amateurs make Oblivion that much better is the proof that Bethesda, for whatever reason, didn´t polish the game adequately although it would have been rather easy. Every other developer gets criticized if the game has weaknesses. I don´t think it makes sense to positively reward this one just because their customers can finish the work they should have done.
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:36 pm |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
quote:
Originally posted by TheMadGamer
Normally, I'd agree with this. However, one of the 'features' of oblivion is that it is designed in a way that allows for robust modding. If the moddability of oblivion were more of an afterthought, you'd have more of an argument. But the modability of Oblivion is a major feature (pc of course).
I take this - oupled with the skillful and enthusiastic response of the modding community - as an indication that in a few years Oblivion will still be a top seller, and that there will be such breadth and variety of mods that you may well be able to play as a Klingon soothsayer, overseeing weddings between Hobbits and Ewoks ...
Mike
_________________
Dopelar effect (n.) The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Check out my blog. |
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:43 pm |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
quote:
Originally posted by txa1265
quote:
Originally posted by TheMadGamer
Normally, I'd agree with this. However, one of the 'features' of oblivion is that it is designed in a way that allows for robust modding. If the moddability of oblivion were more of an afterthought, you'd have more of an argument. But the modability of Oblivion is a major feature (pc of course).
I take this - oupled with the skillful and enthusiastic response of the modding community - as an indication that in a few years Oblivion will still be a top seller, and that there will be such breadth and variety of mods that you may well be able to play as a Klingon soothsayer, overseeing weddings between Hobbits and Ewoks ...Mike
That sounds sorta... I dunno... meh...
I was thinking something more along the lines of Liesure Suite Larry meets up with Darth Vader's girlfriend, who has been modded to include a double D breast cup. But that's just me.
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:59 pm |
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorath
I agree with Mike. Only the officially supplied version of the game should be relevant. This means the game as it is out of the box plus the latest official patch.
The issue is what a part of the population who bought the game regard a "problem" may not be a problem for others. Also, the concept of perfect is subjective especially when content is designed for fun i.e. games. When we buy a product, we voted for it even if our opinions with the game may be different. Also, letting the community do what the developers couldn’t do for some reasons is already one of the standard fortes of releasing PC versions. In fact, they are still selling Morrowind.
If you like to stick with the "original" product, then, you might be missing that the background of game development has changed. For the correct information, editors should not include mod content for a review without writing on them but if they totally ignore mods in PC gaming, they are not writing about the current situation of PC gaming. I think the review is appropriate for CRPG fan site rather if not for commercial sites. |
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:09 pm |
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Grumpy the Ectoterrestria
Guest
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I feel that Rendelius has written THE review of Oblivion. Bipolar or not, his perspective most accurately reflects how I feel about the title as well.
I am also pleased to see his little guide to getting the most out of what Oblivion could have been through mods. I intend to download them immediately.
If one perceives Oblivion to be a Fantasy Simulator, somewhat like Microsoft Flight Simulator, then the review is quite accurate with respect to the community's role in the quality of the product.
Flight Simulator's are generally only 1/100 th of what they become once the community starts developing for them.
Excellent write-up, o sage of RPGS! |
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:29 pm |
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