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Tohree Blooh
Village Dweller
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 5
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| lack of gameplay in SWG - a trend for upcoming MMORPGs? |
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Hi, great site and great forum.
Well, I recently uninstalled SWG from system and I am still shaking my head in disbelief as to why - I so wanted to love this game.
My problem has nothing really to do with the growing pains, technical and otherwise, that any MMORPG must go through. Rather, the problem has to do with a fundamental problem in SWG that I fear will never be fixed: a lack of compelling an original gameplay. Stripped of the amazing graphics and rich Star Wars backdrop, SWG offers nothing more than the basic wash-rinse-repeat character advancement formula that I have experienced before. Yes, this formula forms the essence of any MMORPG, but in the other games I played, the boredom didn't set in until much later.
Am I wrong to expect a little gameplay for my monthly fee? Am I wrong in feeling a bit resentful that paying customers are expected to do so much of the work? More importantly, is this hollowness going to be a common feature in the next crop of MMORPGs?
Anyways, that's my two-cents. Sorry for the long post.
Tohree |
Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:23 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
While I respect what you say, I severely disagree with you. If SWG has to be commended for something, in my opinion, it's the gameplay value in my opinion... Content is another story, and that is still lacking as of right now, yes. But gameplay?
I can start the game as a marksman, go get my novice skills as an artisan and a medic right away before even firing one shot. I'll head out around the city, shoot out some critters for a while. Once I'm bored, I'll go back to the city, sit down for a while and craft to my heart's content. Once I'm bored with that, I'll head for the medical center and do some socializing a little while I heal some people I meet there. Suddenly I'm bored with that, and I get a taste for blood again and head out. I just described what could be a good 3 hours of play here. And let's not even start heading into the advance professions once you've mastered some of the skills you can start with... Of course if you play 10 hours a day you'll get bored pretty soon. But then again you'd get bored pretty soon with any game past 40 hours of play...
There's a lot to do in this game, and you can vary your occupations at a whim. Of course, if you play SWG like you play every other MMORPG out there (EQ, DAoC, AC, AC2, etc) and just grab your gun and start shooting, getting some money, buying a new weapon, and starting over again after gaining some skills, no wonder you say that there's no gameplay 
Granted, some professions have heavy tedium related to them (medic, artisan, entertainers), but the key is to do a little bit of one thing, then do something else. I've been playing with the same character since launch (July 27th) and am still going with him now. This is the first MMORPG where I stuck with my original character for more than 2 weeks! And planning to go with him for the long haul! I remember I switched characters every other week when I first started DAoC. Now that's frustrating. And there was tedium with all of them. I had to switch personalities every time I wanted to do something new...  With SWG, what I am doing now with the character I created a month ago is completely different from what I was doing at creation.
I'm sorry but again I cannot agree with you on gameplay. Content is what is lacking in SWG, and it still has to affect me yet.
PS.: by the way, this is a long post, yours was just right 
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Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:42 pm |
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Tohree Blooh
Village Dweller
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 5
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Thanks for the thoughtful and respectful reply Ekim:)
You certainly make a strong case for both the variety of things to do in SWG and for the options available for character development.
As for my own inability to warm up to SWG's gameplay, I am frankly at a loss to adequately explain the feeling. As an Iksar necromancer in EQ, I certainly had fewer gameplay options than my feeble marksman/artisan in SWG. But I really enjoyed the day to day grind of finding food, bones, and reliable hunting grounds (until around level 48 or so). By the same token, I was happy to be free of these micromanagement concerns in AC2 and found that the alliance-building features in this game dovetailed nicely with the level treadmill (until the tedium of the higher levels).
Maybe I haven't the gameplay features in SWG their proper due. Maybe my cold initial reaction is due the lack of content. Or it could be the interplay of these two factors.
In any case, I appreciate your response. 
Tohree |
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Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:09 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Tohree Blooh
As for my own inability to warm up to SWG's gameplay, I am frankly at a loss to adequately explain the feeling. As an Iksar necromancer in EQ, I certainly had fewer gameplay options than my feeble marksman/artisan in SWG. But I really enjoyed the day to day grind of finding food, bones, and reliable hunting grounds (until around level 48 or so). By the same token, I was happy to be free of these micromanagement concerns in AC2 and found that the alliance-building features in this game dovetailed nicely with the level treadmill (until the tedium of the higher levels).
I never played EQ myself, and far from me is the desire to compare any games together. But maybe it's just that some of things found in SWG you have already experienced in EQ? I would not fault SWG's gameplay for your lack of interest. And, mind you, it's fine that SWG didn't appeal to you, I can understand that.
But from where I stand, I'm hard pressed to find any other game (be it multiplayer or not) that affords you as much freedom with a single character. The tedium might have gotten to you, I can certainly agree with that. But the gameplay is there, and it works There are a few things that SWG does differently that some veteran MMORPG players (achievers for the most part) miss in this game. Maybe that's what got to you?
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Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:20 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
| Re: lack of gameplay in SWG - a trend for upcoming MMORPGs? |
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quote:
Originally posted by Tohree Blooh
...I am still shaking my head in disbelief as to why - I so wanted to love this game.
Your problem #1: expectations most likely based upon unrealistic hype. Game features usually sound so much better on paper than they do when implemented in real life.
quote:
Originally posted by Tohree Blooh
Rather, the problem has to do with a fundamental problem in SWG that I fear will never be fixed: a lack of compelling an original gameplay.
This is something I've heard more than one person say (not necessarily about SWG but in relation to other MMORPGs as well). I truly don't understand that. What does compelling and original gameplay mean? Personally, I find the incredible freedom to be something different absolutely flabergasting in this game. Just walk into any cantina and look around. You'll most likely know exactly what I mean.
quote:
Originally posted by Tohree Blooh
Stripped of the amazing graphics and rich Star Wars backdrop...
But that very backdrop is the canvas upon which you are to paint your existence in that world. The very soul of the reason we are all there. The world is absolutely meaningless without it. It is the very essence of the RPG part of MMORPG.
quote:
Originally posted by Tohree Blooh
SWG offers nothing more than the basic wash-rinse-repeat character advancement formula that I have experienced before.
As Ekim already pointed out, I'd find it anything but basic. In fact, I found that most of my skills increase without me ever actually attempting to willingly advance them. My survey skills increase not because I'm power leveling them, but as a side-effect of something I normally do: survey. My pistol proficiency increases, not because I want it to, or am doing something specifically to do so, but because I just live a normal life within that world. I am about to become a novice pistoleer, yet I have not shot a single thing in the game yet with forethought towards gaining pistol xp. I have not shot a single creature yet with an intent of increasing my pistol xp. I find that rather remarkable.
Additionally, Ekim talks about the tediousness and the drudge of certain professions. I thought so too... for a while. But now I see the bigger picture. I thought sampling ore for hours on end will be the only way I can progress in my chosen professions... I couldn't be more wrong. With about two hour investment to get me started and about a half hour investment once a day, I now have more resources on me than I know what to do with. The most boring grid was getting through second level of Organic Chemistry under my medic tree. That was actually bordering painful. But once I got through it, I never looked back. I got through most of my fourth level of Org Chem without even realizing I'm doing it. Once I get into higher level medical crafting, I'm sure I'll hit some more grinding spots, but I can't see myself getting bored any time soon. Because, the moment I get bored, there are at least three radically different things I can do to keep myself amused. And that does not include making new friends or socializing with my current friends.
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Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:50 pm |
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Tohree Blooh
Village Dweller
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 5
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Hi MoonDragon,
Thanks for the reply. In my defence, if I held higher hopes than warranted for SWG, they were due to the pedigree of the developers and to the higher than normal monthly fee. Thus, while I certainly agree that the game offers a huge variety of character choices, at least for me, the context for making these choices wasn't sufficiently engaging (at least for now), for me to risk the wrath of my non-gaming wife.
In terms of my desire for a more compelling gameplay...well that's a tricky one. On the one hand, the organic development of a player community should be constrained as little as possible by artificial limitations set by game designers (eg, a desire to support a certain kind of grouping, or a particular p.v.p hook). On the other hand, designers need to be a little more involved than making a virtual sandbox, leaving a few shovels, and expecting players to do their building for them.
Ultimately, as Ekim correctly pointed out, these problems have more do with my gaming taste than with the game itself.
Thanks again for your comments
Tohree |
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Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:34 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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I've never seen another MMORPG where if you got sick of being a fighter... truly sick as it I never want to shoot another thing in my life sick... you could cash in all your skills and readjust your stats to be something that is not a fighter.
I think that's cool, and not just from a 'replay value' factor... it can work if you roleplay too... an ex-mercenary opens a bar, etc.
Now if you could surrender selected skill lines instead of the whole tree of a profession I'd be even happier. Not that I have a single skill advancing that I don't need, even if I'd sometimes like to cash in intermediate pistol for 2 measly skill points...
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:57 am |
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Shrapnel
Rocket Scientist
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 1325
Location: Newark, NJ |
This guy's problem is that he was expecting this to be the ultimate-end all game of games. There will never be one of those.
After the massive disappointment in AC2 I dont get hyped for any MMOGs, which is probably why I'm loving SWG 100%. I didnt run out to get it opening weekend, didnt follow the boards much, I just waited till its 2nd weekend and picked up the game when I had the chance. Because I didnt follow every single dev note and update, I was totally sure on what to expect so when I got it I was blown away. Anyway, you played 50 levels of scavengiing and looking for food in EQ...you should have went scout in swg where you can harvest bone/hide from killed monsters and craft them into traps/camping equipment (Camping feature in SWG = teh sH*t)
Or you should have went dancer/musician or maybe medic.
Lack of gameplay? Hardly
Lack of Content? Yes
How much content were you expecting from a 5 week old game thats story arc hasnt even launched yet? |
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Mon Aug 04, 2003 11:55 am |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Shrapnel
How much content were you expecting from a 5 week old game thats story arc hasnt even launched yet?
This argument should not exist though, as some other people have correctly pointed out before. To a certain degree it's a shame that as far as MMORPGs should go we almost feel that we shouldn't expect content in the game when it comes out. We expect it to come later, and I'm not sure that's entirely a good thing.
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Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:01 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
You know, I was thinking about that for the last couple of days.
I'm starting to think that people are being exceedingly unrealistic in their expectations. I remember the early days of AO. People cheated and power leveled their way trough 200 levels of their characters in couple of months and then started whining left, right and center how there is no content in the game. I played that game for about 6 months and never got past level 40. Why? Because I was too busy taking in all the content to have time for leveling. I used to dream about new places I could go and what wonderous things I could find there. I would make photo journals and tell stories of my journeys. It was awsome.
I think SWG is close to that. It lacks some of the "umpf" of the AO content, but I think they are going in the right direction. They turned some of the key aspects of good RP infrastructure into staple gameplay. Yes, perhaps that devalues it a bit, but it also makes it accessible to general populous. These days, whenever I go to cantina, I pull out my R5 unit with a food crafting station inside of it, and I make tea and cookies for everybody. Perhaps not everybody sees that as content, but I get hours of fun out of making tea and cookies in a cantina! Just to get it straight: it's not the tea and cookies that I consider content, it's the fact that I can come to cantina 'to relax', find people to talk to, have them sit in a char next to me, and then offer them tea and cookies that I can make a spectacle of making. It is the whole scene that is content. All of the pieces of it are like the pieces of a puzzle. On their own, none really make for much. But put together, they form a beautiful picture.
Now, I ask again, what do people consider to be content, that is so severely lacking in SWG?
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Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:35 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
Now, I ask again, what do people consider to be content, that is so severely lacking in SWG?
Very good question.... What you describe as being content is correct, you convince me
But when I talk about content, personally, it means physical things in the world, places to go, things to see. I described something of that sort in another thread, where there could be the wreckage of a ship that was destroyed and crashed on the planet, attracting the smugglers and such. It's things in the world that make you stop and want to investigate a little further.
There are some of those things in SWG, but they are few and far between. Maybe it's the size of the individual worlds that make it seem like there are too few of them though. The design of the game makes it so that players can construct buildings anywhere in the land, and so the developers couldn't start cramming in content everywhere like in DAoC. In DAoC there is lots of content, but the landmasses are small and so it feels like every place has a little something.
Content would go a long way to create goals for some players too. But content (as far as my definition of it goes) is usually static in nature and promotes camping, which SWG tries to avoid. It's a double edged sword if there ever was one. So, as far as I'm concerned, SWG lacks content, but it doesn't hurt the game one bit for me. Others who are more goal-oriented (achievers) might be disapointed by this lack though...
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Mon Aug 04, 2003 2:17 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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You can get missions from DARTH VADER himself. How lacking is that?
Heh... and I have founded downed ships in the middle of nowhere. I found a crashed Correllian corvette on Naboo somewhere... just it wrecked in the middle of a forest somewhere. No explanation, nothing special... just a cool piece of scenery.
I still get a kick out of watching the corvettes land at starports or looking up to see tie fighters or lambda shuttles zipping over a city. And slapping, bodyslamming, and insulting the ticket collector droids. And jumping on player controlled mouse droids (which usually gets an indignant "Hey now!").
Players are the content.
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:10 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
Now, don't get me wrong here. I didn'T say there is no content! And, mind you, I'm of the same mind as you guys, personally the "lack" does not affect my appreciation of the game. But I'm thinking of people who are considered "achievers" in the MMORPG pallet of players. Achievers are those who like to be the first to attain top level of their class/profession, get the best loot, kill the biggest mob, etc... They'Re the ones who will suffer from this "lack of content", the kind I've described anyway. And in this regard the game does lack in some way. The question is whether that is good or bad.
These guys will litterally need goals and will need a target destination. They usually enjoy camping out a hunting ground where certain hot items are supposed to drop. Achievers are many... I myself don'T enjoy camping. I would rather go hunt what I encounter in the wild, I would rather really hunt for those Kaadus to harvest their hides without really kowing where they might be today.
Achiever would say that it's counter productive to not know where to find certain animals. They would probably say that it makes it so that it takes them twice the time to do anything because of that... You have to warn these players before they get SWG and then complain about the "lack of content" in the game.
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Mon Aug 04, 2003 5:37 pm |
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Tohree Blooh
Village Dweller
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 5
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My oh my, it looks like I have quite a bit to respond to.  I will try to be as clear and as concise as I can in explaining "this guy's" "problem".
Firs off, I am distinguishing between SWG the game and SWG the Star Wars experience. While I certainly like the Star Wars fictional universe, I do not love it. As such, the ability to loiter around this universe is not enough of a draw in and of itself to please me. Don't get me wrong, I think it's cool that people can stop and smell that roses, as it were, in the Star Wars universe. I just need something compelling to stop from first.
Secondly, I can't divorce gameplay from content. Providing gameplay choices is not the same as proving players with meaningful choices. Although I don't have enough space to define what I mean by content here, I will say that a completely player driven economy is rather bland. Developers need to provide special and rare items and gear that can be used. bought, and sold as well.
Thirdly, no game can be evaluated in a vacuum - especially a milestone game such as this one. Again, there is not sufficient space to debate this in this particular post. I will say that SWG, as a game, has not provided me a sufficiently different experience from the other mmorpgs I played to warrant the premium monthly fee. It would also be a shame that SWG's legacy to the genre turned out to be the realization that developers could succeed financially merely by providing customers a chance to play in a popular fictional universe rather than striving for new and meaningful gameplay hooks.
Fourthly, I am glad that Ekim expanded on what he means by "achievers", even though he seems to describe them (me?) with a scorn usually reserved for describing pedophiles. While my gameplay preferences do not completely fit into his definition, I must confess to being driven by more goal oriented preferences in my roleplaying games - but that is the point of playing a game as opposed to just soaking in an experience. I honestly think that there is room in the mmorpg genre for both kinds of players.
Tohree |
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Mon Aug 04, 2003 9:45 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Tohree Blooh
Fourthly, I am glad that Ekim expanded on what he means by "achievers", even though he seems to describe them (me?) with a scorn usually reserved for describing pedophiles.
eeep! 
I want to start with this because it was really not my intention to make it seem that way, and I apologize if I made anyone feel like a rapist... I just wanted to point out that there are other types of players out there and that from their point of view the game might lack content. Although I'm really not an Achiever, I don't have less respect for them in the least  Now, that being said...
quote:
Originally posted by Tohree Blooh
Although I don't have enough space to define what I mean by content here, I will say that a completely player driven economy is rather bland.
How can a player-driven economy be bland? On the contrary, it's dynamic, unpredictable, and challenging at the highest level! If we play the comparison game, I could log in to DAoC today, and I can safely expect that the suit of low-level armor I paid 1gp for at launch 2 years ago is exactly the same price today. Even the crafted items in the game will probably be the same price because NPC's sell the materials the crafters need to work (except for certain high level items).
In SWG, I can guarantee that in 6 months the pricing structures will be different. Sure, the market will stabilize eventually as the crafters get to know how to make profits in the game. But let's say that in a month all of a sudden there is a shortage of good scouts willing to harvest hides or meat from the wild creatures? Those hides and meat will suddenly sell for much higher because of their rarity. Prices of items crafted with those will rise as well.
How can this dynamic scenario be bland? I don't get it....
quote:
Originally posted by Tohree Blooh
Developers need to provide special and rare items and gear that can be used. bought, and sold as well.
I am pretty sure that this is in SWG. As MoonDragon already pointed out (here or in another thread) the dev team will provide special drop rewards that will take the form of items crafters can use to make special items. But if you're talking about loot in the form of whole weapons that would be more powerful than those made by crafters, it goes against the whole point of a dynamic player-driven economy.
quote:
Originally posted by Tohree Blooh
It would also be a shame that SWG's legacy to the genre turned out to be the realization that developers could succeed financially merely by providing customers a chance to play in a popular fictional universe rather than striving for new and meaningful gameplay hooks.
We see things very differently here, probably because of the huge difference in our appreciation of content. But think about it from another point of view for one minute: As an Explorer-type of player, whenever I log in DAoC, AC, AC2, even AO to a lesser degree, I kind of bit the dust. I can't start to enjoy looking around, or healing people just for fun, because that's not how my character will "grow". To grow, my healer needs to kill things, as illogical (to me!!) it might sound. I hate camping spots... Every day I logged it was a hassle to get me to join a group that would go to whichever place had the best (read same) mobs to get that next level... again and again...
Mind you, I still enjoyed DAoC! I spent a year and a half playing the game, so I must have enjoyed it at some level! But what I'm saying is that I could never play the game as I would have liked to play it. I had to adapt to it, instead of it adapting to me. I could still enjoy it, but the gameplay was more akin to an action game to me than a genuine RPG. What really kept me going was really the community, the socialization. But had I been given another game (say SWG) to play, I would have switched in a second (knowing what I know today).
So, as much as I can sympathize with you for saying that SWG has no "new and meaningful gameplay hooks", I must insist that there are hooks but that you are not the type of player to enjoy these hooks. Heck, Diablo 2 had hooks. I certainly didn't like the game one bit, but I can recognize that there were hooks, and that for some players this game was a masterpiece. It's all a question of points of views, in my opinion.
Ok, this is getting way out of hand! I didn't want to go on and on like this! In any event, I'm sorry if I made you feel bad with the way I expressed myself. But to be quite honest I'm getting a little irritated. My style of gameplay is finally getting a bright spotlight and it's being put down for it. Achievers have been blessed with many titles since EQ came along, while we have not been served anything really close to our taste since Ultima Online (and even there it wasn't all that satisfying for varying reasons).
Ok, I'll stop now 
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Mon Aug 04, 2003 10:58 pm |
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