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Priest4hire
Head Merchant
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 52
Location: Slocan, BC |
quote:
I don't have time to make a full reply but I disagree. What would you call a game that really tried to bring the rpg experience to a computer? A real rpg? The character advancment in RoA was simple, and came directly from the pen and paper game (something german or dutch, I dont know the name off hand), and the devlopers tried there hardest to bring the pen and paper feel. Limited by tech and time, they did a great job.
Das Schwarze Auge is the RPG Realms of Arkania is based on (and yes, I knew that off hand). Yes, the development system was simple enough. I said it was frustrating but that's not the same thing. It's also full of useless skills and the character sheets are several pages long which makes it cumbersome. And the little part where instead of regular skill/stat points you get 'chances to upgrade' is frustrating.
An example of a game that really tried to bring the P&P feel to the computer? That's easy: Neverwinter Nights. The fact you can have a DM control multi-player custom games pushes it far closer to the P&P experience than any single player CRPG has managed. The Realms of Arkania trilogy tries to be a CRPG that brings as much of the DSA system as possible into the CRPG realm. But it's a CRPG through and through and is chock full of CRPG elements separate from the RPG system it is derived from. Or did DSA really have auto combat and auto character advancement options?
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Roque likes are dnd like. They are dnd without the role playing, so I say they aren't role playing games. If you see crpgs and rpgs as having nothing in common but a name, I say one of the names have to be changed. Wouldnt it be silly if FPS's had top=down isometric view, or no shooting? Would you agree with the name? Would an action movie without action still be an action movie? Things have names for a reason. False or misleading names should be changed to better reflext what a thing is. If you said Diablo and many other "crpgs" belong to the cdg genre I would agree (characetr development genre).
dnd, not D&D. The latter is the original P&P RPG while the former is the very first CRPG developed (at least that still exists) for the PLATO system back in the early-mid seventies. It's one of the games that established how the CRPG genre would function.
Obviously CRPG is not the same name as RPG. Using the former to refer to any computer or console RPG would eliminate the confusion. However, since the CRPG genre is limited to computers and since it's highly unlikely that one would unintentionally confuse them it's not really an issue.
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Whats the false dichotomy? I would have to see things the way you do for that to exist. You are one person with an opinion, I am another. I say the action oreinted gameplay in Diablo makes it a twitch game. Many of the pvp D2 players attest to the high twitch ability needed to compete in d2's pvp.
Diablo 2 ≠ Diablo. Player vs. Player ≠ single player gameplay. It is not surprising that in PvP the twitch elements are exaggerated. That does not support your case.
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Indirect control? And the rest of that statement leans heavily on making republic the revolution and many other non-rpgs rpgs. What is your cut-off? If the devs says its an rpg it is?
Indirect control is when you tell the character where to go or what to attack but the character figures out how to get there and do the deed. Baldur's Gate, Darklands, and Diablo all feature indirect control. Daggerfall has direct control in that you directly control your characters actions and movement.
The cut-off. Well, that alone doesn't make a game a CRPG. It could be an action/RPG or a strategy game after all. But it's considered a 'RPG' element and games that feature it are often said to have RPG elements. I've never played Republic: The Revolution so I can't really comment on it other than it looks more strategy than RPG.
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The last statement alone nullifies any arguement you could make. Both games provided ample opertunity for role playing. Creating a character and infusing that character with life and role playing the characters, and both games provided you wuith many and numerous options. Just because RoA was too complicated for you (when it is a very simple system) does not make it a bad game, again you state opinion as fact.
Ad hominem will get you nowhere and I said it was a good game. But it has no role-playing. Character creation as implemented in Realms of Arkania: Blade of Destiny has nothing to do with role playing. You can role play a pre-existing character as easily as one you created yourself. Having menu options has nothing to do with role-playing.
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Crpgs are not just as bound now as they were then. That is an insane statement and really deserves no response.
When it comes to role-playing they are. Zero plus zero is still zero. Games can have more complex worlds and more sophisticated NPC AIs and better combat engines with more realistic combat resolution. But as for role-playing they have gone nowhere.
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As quest for glory goes, the creator of the game really tried to infuse it with life and role playing opertunities given the technology at hand. Obviously it had twitch combat, but with any sierra game back then if you hit the - key enough a coma patient could react fast enough. The premise opf the game is the same as many pen and paper games go. You try new things, miss events if you arent at the right place at the right time. Numerous ways to make money, basically a guessing game. Where as on the other hand, no pnp rpg has ever been like Diablo. If diablo were to be a pnp rpg so many more rules would have to be made it would be a brand new game. But it could be a wargame, in which no roleplaying is done, just combat.
Heh, I guess you've never played D&D with a bunch of immature teenagers. I've seen whole game sessions that consisted of nothing but walking from room to room killing things and getting phat loot. Yes, Quest for Glory did offer multiple solutions to problems based on character stats. But that's not role playing. And many non-CRPGs have ways to make money and things you can miss and stuff you can try. I still don't see you claiming Grand Theft Auto is a RPG even if you can solve missions in different ways, try new stuff, make money and so on.
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What? My examp[les are bad? Did you see what you typed? Your examples apply how? Mine do. And you even mae my point . "It is important to remember that CRPGs are not RPGs in the P&P sense but simply share a name and a few non-RP qualities." If crpgs only share a few non-rp qualities with rpgs, shouldn;t the rp be dropped?
It probably should but we're stuck with it. A name is just a label after all. I had a doctor for a teacher in high school, but I wouldn't have gone to him for health related reasons. Physical chemistry isn't all that useful for diagnosing illness. Whether or not CRPGs should have been called something else is pointless to debate. They are called that and misleading or not we're stuck with it.
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No, it would be like saying a drama book or comedy book should be made into a drama movie or a comedy movie. Or pizza hut online should deliver pizza, and a c-doctor should still be doctor like. Tell me why if the medium changes the whole philosphy and core reasoning behind the genre should change?
If the medium change renders the core concept impossible then you have to change the concept. A CRPG is not a RPG on a computer but a computer game that is derived from the transferable elements of RPGs. Role playing was not among those transferable elements. Thus new concepts had to be created to fill the void. Hence totally different games.
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Yes, crpgs have been around for a while. Rpgs have been around longer. And wargames before rpgs. Wargames resemble crpgs a lot more than rpgs resemble crpgs. I dont understand any of your points. Its a lot of words with no meaning or consistency. A truck spawned off from a car, but wasnt called a car. Mini-vans are not vans, vand are not cars, trucks are not trains, mopeds are stupid, a harley isnt a ninja, but both are motercycles. Things have names that imply things. If something has roleplaying in the title it should have roleplaying or have its title changed.
Actually, but trucks and cars were derived from a vehicle called a fardier. But I used hand trucks which are radically different than a motor truck even if they share part of a name.
My point is that CRPGs are like a mutant seed from RPGs. They are a whole different tree even if they share part a name. The name in this case implies that CRPGs were derived from RPGs. But that doesn't mean CRPGs are RPGs. This is English we are talking about after all. You should be used to confusing names.
If you want to argue that using RPG to refer to CRPG is a bad habit I'd tend to agree. But usually the context reveals whether it's RPGs or CRPGs being referred to and thus confusion is avoided. The CRPG title is only really needed when there's the possibility of mixing them up.
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This is nonsense. Roleplaying means I create a character, imbue that character with personality and life, and be offered some attempt at being able to play this out. Diablo has none of that at all. I can’t create a character, the back-story for the character and his/her personality is already created, and the game offers zero choice for anything besides character development. This all adds up to not an rpg.
Ever played a Dragonlance module? Pre-created characters with backstories and personalities? Check. Real role-playing? Check. Besides, Diablo offers many choices. Are you a no-nonsense type who rushes straight to their objective or do you casually wander the town enjoying the countryside? That's as valid a 'role-playing' choice as deciding to go through the gate or over the wall. Well, as in neither have anything to do with role-playing.
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How do you figure? If I can make a choice that reflects the idea of the character I’m roleplaying, isn’t that roleplaying? Compared to Diablo’s zero choices?
This is the crux of it then. No, that's not role-playing. Role-playing is the act of creating the character of a character. Even if the personality is predefined the role player still uses that thin framework to create a whole character. Thus role playing is an act of creation.
Choosing off a menu is not an act of creation as you have created nothing. That is nothing more than an elaborate version of the 'choose your own adventure' novel. To claim that a few menu options is role playing is like claiming said choose your own adventure novel is like writing. You could even claim the choice you made in the book is what you would have written. But if you're choosing the few paths the developer has given you that's not creating anything. No role playing in sight.
quote:
WTF are you talking about? I don’t even think you know. There can be, and is, support for roleplaying in many games. All I need is to be able to create a character, decide on what the character is like, and have options to support what I want my character to do. That’s traditional roleplaying. Obviously due to the medium there will never be as many options as in a pnp rpg, but for a while now crpgs have offered an attempt at many choices and open ended game play. If the devs don’t want to include choices that support roleplaying then what they are making isn’t a crpg. Because roleplaying is still the term lodged between computer and game.
No, that's not traditional role playing. Choosing what you want your character to do is part of RPGs and role playing but it is not role playing itself. In fact, it's easy and surprisingly common to play RPGs without actually role playing at all. One reason that some RPGs are considered more role play heavy if they emphasize that element is that some RPGs go hack & slash very easily.
Just as writing a novel is not like a choose your own adventure novel with more choices so then role playing is not like a CRPG with more choices. If you can create the character, his thoughts, feelings, actions, and reactions and then have them interact with the other characters and game world that's role playing. If all you can do is choose from canned options it's not.
That's it right there. To role play I have to be able to create the gestalt of a character through both is actions and reactions. I have to be able to make is actions reflect who he is. Not choosing from 1 or 10 or 1000 choices but instead creating those actions and reactions myself. Role playing is in the details.
quote:
To play tLotR rpg you need a character: a fictional person you create, define, and devlope through play
Exactly. You define and develop through play. Not you choose from the very limited paths your character might take. In Realms of Arkania if your witch had a secret attraction to your warrior would that affect the game in any way? No. Would it in a real RPG? Absolutely. It’s all too easy to fall into the choices trap.
PS. Please forgive me the overly long response. I swear it'll be the last such mega responses I'll do in the near future. Takes way too long both on the creation and reading side.
_________________
Watch your back. Shoot straight. Conserve ammo. And never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
Grammaton Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-
Last edited by Priest4hire on Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:22 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
fadedc,
Darklands didnt have a main story, but the roa's did so of course any game with a main plot, like any pnp rpg is going to guide you down that path. Take startrail, I couldnt figure out what I was supposed to do so I ended up travelling the world and getting in a million misadventures before I stumpled on the right path. But thats beside the point. The char gen and development did have some basically useless skills, but at one point in each game one of those skills would be needed to be called on for something (even if it was a stupid thing). But the fact that I got to make meanignful choices lends itself to roleplaying.
As to the morality statement in roa, I dont think doing a bad deed sneeds to be followed with a shift in my light side points. Just because morality isn't in a sytems rules, doesn't mean it isnt present in the game. Dnd might have a sytem for morality but a lot of pnp rpgs dont, because that is a big part of roleplaying and creating a character. My vision of what the character's personality/morality/etc might not fit into CN, LG, etc. or lightside/darkside.
I played and liked Diablo 1 on the PS with a friend of mine, we had a good time. Last time I saw him we played Contra, and had the same kind of fun. No matter how you look at it, besides character development, Diablo 1 and 2 arent rpgs. That doesn't mean they're bad games by any means; there sales prove that.
Balalnce is something I can't stand. To me (and not in general, just to me) balance equates to arbitrary choices. If every character and build has the same chance of beating each other if they employ their different tactics correctly that makes me think every choice before then doesn't matter. It turns the game into Mortal Kombat. I like unbalanced systems. A good example would be planetside (I played the beta so what I'm saying might be out of date). Not every class is equal to each other. Certain classes have certain advantages and some classes will never be able to beat others.
Thats just a clear cut and understandable example. I like the advantages and disadvantages to be a lot more ambigous. If you like balance I'm not saying thats bad, I just don't think that is a strong selling point for me, or helps articulate your point of why Diablo is an rpg.
If the term rpg is going to be tagged onto a game it has to mean something more than just that the game has an element of rpg.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:35 am |
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Lucky Day
Guest
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yeah, but is it spyware? |
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Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:43 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Priest,
Good points, I saw that after my last post. I say you win just by shear breath of arguement. I could go on forever, and I'd still think I'm right. And my original point still stands true, if you want to see Diablo 1 and 2 as rpgs go ahead, just don't say they are unquestionably rpgs. Saying that, you and FadedC win. I can't keep up with this and keep my job.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:47 am |
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Naked_Lunch
Village Leader
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 86
Location: New york, tangiers, and interzone |
R00fles!
_________________
irc.gamesurge.net #planescape #fallout |
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Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:35 pm |
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