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Seth
Last Man Standing
Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Posts: 1008
Location: Faerun |
I was about to PM you, but the thought occurred (yeah, I’m surprised too  ) that some other posters might have some interesting impute. Anyway the reason I’m posting here is because my lack of knowledge of PnP is very embarrassing, and now with upcoming this ToEE which suppose to be almost exactly resemblance of this type of the gaming (real turn-based) I though I should try and understand (at least some of) it. What motivated me even more are the latest Q&A on RPG Vault. I’m referring here to the implemented strategies in Greyhawk: tripping/flank/prone (I have no idea how does it work).
The explanation over there is pretty good for people who know what to do (definitely NOT my case). I mean when the s*** hits the fan and the shooting starts, what needs to be done? Does it work like one character gets closer to the opponent (half action?) and trips him (another half?), what about attack of opportunity of the other guy?
Now if you thinking to ask me to read the 3rd edition rules, think again. I went through this book back and forth and I know even less (if that’s possible), so unless they published “D&D for Idiots” I ain’t reading again. So I was wandering if you could walk me through such a battle with as many details as you can think of? I realize this is a lot to ask but since you have patience of (almost) a saint, you would take the challenge.
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Money - An article which may be used as a universal passport to everywhere except heaven, and as a universal provider of everything except happiness. |
Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:12 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Oh my... combat in D&D.  This could get messy... tripping and such are pretty advanced combat options.
I'll mark rocket science paragraphs with an asterix to prevent excessive eye glazing.
We'll start with the basics though. I know you know them but bear with it... the good stuff will come after. First off: How a combat starts.
Combat starts when hostile parties become aware of each other. This can be as simple as walking anywhere in a dungeon wearing full plate (every monster in the dungeon can hear THAT) to two thieves playing hide and seek through the twisted rooftops of a major city.
Basically, though, it comes down to an opposed roll:
If there's a chance you can see them and they're trying to not be seen it's an opposed roll of Spot versus Hide. Each party makes it (it's fully possible for a hiding person to roll really pathetically and not notice you not noticing them.  ).
If there's no chance you can see them (on the other side of a door, etc) then it's an opposed roll of Listen versus Move Silently. Note that it is pretty much impossible for a monster to not hear a party approach... and similarly it's almost impossible for said party to hear the monster through the sounds of their own armor and weapons clanking. This is why rogues and rangers come in handy, and scout well ahead of a party.
Once at least one hostile force is aware of the other, combat begins.
If only one side is aware of the combat they get a round of free shots in. This is pretty much never cool, and it's called a surprise round.
Regardless, after the surprise round initiative is rolled for all interested parties. Initiative is really only important in the first round... but it's CRITICALLY important in the first round. Initiative is a roll of a d20 + dexterity bonus (or - dexterity penalty) + miscellaneous (feats, spells, class powers, etc). Higher is better (higher is always better in 3rd edition, unlike second).
The fundamentals are this:
1. To hit a foe, you must roll higher than their armor class.
2. To save against things like poison or magic, they must roll higher than said attack's DC (difficulty class). Examples are coming.
3. To fight an ancient dragon is to be served up with a side of garlic.
Fundamentals in mind, let's run through a combat or three (low, medium, high level).
Low Level:
Alright... here we go.
Bob the Ranger is a novice hunter of orcs in the Great Forest of Forestness. One day Bob is patrolling and he comes across Orc tracks.
How did he know they were orc tracks? Skill check. Skill checks function exactly like saving throws (fundamental 2).
The DM asks Bob's player to roll a tracking check against a DC (difficulty class) of 15. Bob has 6 skill points in tracking, and gets a +2 for wisdom, and in this case another +2 for Favored Enemy: Orcs. This means he must roll 15 or higher on a d20. He rolls 1d20 + 10 to do this, so it's looking pretty good.
* Temple of Elemental Evil will use this rule: If there's no penalty for failing a skill and a character is not pressured, he may assume he gets a 10 on the d20 rather than roll it. Why? Because Bob can keep staring at the tracks and rolling d20 until he figures out what they are. He could not if he was being shot at, for example. If he was in a high stress situation he would have to roll that d20 and add his 10 and hope for the best.
Bob figures out they are orcs! Oh, those pesky orcs! Bob takes to the shadows and flits through the trees as quietly as he can. In other words, he asks the DM to roll a hide and move silently check for him. DMs are supposed to make this roll because Bob should really have no idea how quiet he's being... unless he really screws up the roll. This is to prevent someone from going "hmmm... only got a 14... I wanted at least a 20. Bob steps out of the shadows and hide again.".
Bob sneaks through the woods until he sees his prey. Four orcs are passing beer around a campfire. And they're littering. And not obeying fire safety regulations. And roasting an endangered species for dinner.
Since this is a capital offense in D&D (all things are capital offenses in D&D to the vigilante world of the D&D hero), Bob draws his bow and prepares to fire.
The orcs all have rolled Listen checks as he approached, and failed miserably. Now that he's pretty close they roll spot checks and again fail miserably. Orcs go with the philosophy when you can headbutt buildings who needs brains?
This means the surprise round is Bobs! He targets an orc and releases the arrow.
The orcs are FLATFOOTED this round. Flatfooted is a term indicating that you have not acted yet in a combat, and thus cannot apply your dexterity score to your armor class. Not that the orcs had a heroic dexterity score in the first place. FLATFOOTED is most important to Rogues... as it's one of the conditions they can execute a Sneak Attack in. Bob is a ranger, though, so all it means is a free shot.
He rolls a 12 on the d20 and we'll say he has a +6 to hit, which makes him around level 4 with a 14 dexterity. Dexterity is added to ranged attack rolls, strength is added to melee attack rolls. A total of 18 is more than enough to hit the first orcs armor class of 14 (he's wearing scale mail).
Bob rolls his damage of 1d8. He rolls an 8, which gets subtracted from the orcs hit points. Unfortunately for Mr Orc, his hit point total is 5... and 5 - 8 = Dead freaking orc.
The other orcs are now suitably surprised and ticked off. The three orcs roll initiative, getting a 3, a 12, and a 18. Bob rolls and gets a 16. One of the drunken slugs is faster to react to the arrow than he is to knock another one, apparantly. A surprise round does not guarantee that you retain initiative (though I know a lot of DMs who use the optional rule that is does, as it makes sense).
That orc grabs his trusty, rusty axe and peers around, looking for Bob. Here's where it gets comical for a second... because Bob attacked he gets a -20 to his hide check to remain hidden. His hide check is d20 + 9 - 20. Suffice to say, it doesn't look too good for Bob to remain hidden. He rolls and gets... a 20! This gives him a hide check of 9. The orc rolls d20 - 1 and rolls a 9... getting an 8. The orc stares around confused as to where the arrow came from. He has now acted in the combat, however... so if he had a dexterity modifier to armor class it would be working now. Additionally, he is no longer flatfooted so a rogue would have to try a little harder to sneak attack him.
Bob is no rogue, though. He calmly knocks another arrow and fires. He rolls a 10 + 6 and hits one of the orcs who haven't gone yet (since combat is happening so fast basically he's shooting an orc as they're standing up, but he can tell who hasn't even looked for him yet). He rolls 5 damage and the orc falls face first into the fire, unconscious. Unfortunately falling face first into a fire inflicts 1d6 fire damage, and the orc dies.
The last orc to act in the round makes his spot check and there's no chance in hell Bob can pass it this time. He's fired two arrows from the same spot. The orc bellows and charges. Orcs are pretty strong, so Bob is in a little trouble. The orc gets a +2 to attack from strength, and +2 to attack from charging. Bob is wearing masterworked studded leather armor +1, and has his dexterity of 14 going for him. This gives him an armor class of 10 + 3 (studded leather) + 1 (magic) + 2 (dexterity) = 16. The orc rolls a 10 and misses and Bob neatly ducks out of the way.
Now it is round two.
The first orc now knows exactly where Bob is, and it's time to teach the uppity Ranger a lesson in being outnumbered (and finally work in a direct answer: Flanking!).
The orc wanders by Bob, as he can move 30 feet in the round and that's more than enough to stay wide of the area Bob threatens (attack of opportunity range... explained shortly) and come in behind him as he continues to dodge the wild blows of the second orc.
Bob glances around him and knows he's in trouble. THe orc attacks. He gets a +2 to attack from strength and a +2 to attack from flanking Bob. The other Orc also now gets a +2 to attack Bob when/if he gets his turn. The orc rolls a 12 which is enough to tag Bob with an unfortunate 1d12 + 3 damage. The orc rolls a 6, inflicting 9 damage to Bob (who has 32 hit points at full health, and now has 23). Another two or three hits like that and he's done for.
It's Bob's turn... and he know's he's at a disadvantage as the second orc attacks. Before the second orc can penetrate his defenses, he knows he has to eliminate him from the fight!
Unfortunately Bob has a bow drawn. He drops it as a free action and draws his sword as a move action. This is a big mistake on his part, as drawing a weapon provokes an attack of opportunity from the two orcs.
Attacks of opportunity are also known as "Don't Be an Idiot" warnings. IN this case Bob saying "Look! I don't even have a slim shaft of wood to parry the blows... I'll just drop my weapon and draw this here sword out and hope you don't run me through while I do that.".
The orcs roll 8 + 4 and 14 + 4 to attack. One misses, but the other one connects with a meaty 'thunk', rolling 12 on his damage dice (doing 15 damage, leaving Bob the Ranger wondering why he feels so cold all of the sudden... and he's at 7 hit points.).
All that happened on Bob's turn because Bob was an idiot.
* In Bob's defense, even if he's chosen the 'withdraw!' action to move 30 feet safely to get out of the flank and draw his weapon, the orcs would have simply charged him, keeping their +4 to hit (charging gives a+2, flanking gives a +2... so the orcs don't really care if he moved or not. If there was a third orc still alive he could charge Bob right now while he's flanked and get a +4 to hit. Which would be unfortunate for Bob.
Bob still has his attack action of the round, and he uses it attacking the second orc before he gets 'his' turn and finishes Bob off. He rolls his d20 + 6 (Bob has a lot of 14s, it seems, which is the number rangers shoot for in as many stats as possibe BTW). He rolls a 19 + 6!
Bob is using a short sword, which threatens for a critical hit if you roll a 19 or 20 before adding bonuses. Critical hits are fun. You immediately roll again, and if the second roll would be a hit as well... you confirm a critical hit. Bob rolls again and gets a 14 + 6, which easily confirms the crit. Go, Bob, GO!
Bob's short sword does 1d6 + 2 and has a critical multiplier of x2. So bob does 2d6+4... which is, incidently what a greatsword wielded by a person with a 16 strength does. Not bad for a short sword. The DM says 'don't bother rolling damage... minimum damage kills the orc'... but Bob's player is feeling vengeful and rolls damage, rolling a total of 15 damage... enough to kill three orcs.
Whew. Brief summary because things are about to get mixed up:
- Surprise Round: Bob shoots an orc
- Round One: One orc fails to find him, bob shoots an orc, a second orc charges him.
- 2nd round: First orc flanks Bob and hits him. Bob draws a weapon, which provokes an attack from the second orc... who then dies horribly as Bob's weapon comes out of the scabbard and right through his heart in one swift motion.
Intermediate Combat:
Now begins the third round. Bob has 7 hit points left, and the orc is up. Bob is no longer flanked, which is a thank you for small miracles kind of situation. THe orc raises his axe and...
A large wolf dashes forward from behind, flanking the orc! The orc is very confused. He is even more confused when the wolf snarls and makes a trip attack (ha ha! Bet you thought I forgot!).
Tripping is brutal. Skill has little to do with it... it's all size and strength and it ignores armor.
The wolf makes a trip check. It has a strength of 12 and is size medium so it gets a total of a +1 to trip. The orc has a strength of 14 and is also size medium so it gets a total of +2. The wolf rolls a 12 and gets a 13... the orc rolls a 10 and gets a 12... he falls as the 60 pound wolf jumps into him!
* The wolf, which is actually a druid friend of his, arrived at the fight earlier and was watching. This let her decide when she wanted to join in the combat, and she did so when it became evident Bob was about to be cut in half.
It is now the orcs turn. The orc is seriously screwed right now... he can stay where he is and attack with a -2 penalty and hope for the best. If he does so he gets a -4 to his armor class, pretty much ensuring his death. Orcs are nice and defiant to the end, though, so with a roar he lunges back to his feat, bringing his axe up in a blow designed to cut Bob from groin to sternum.
Unfortunately for the Orc (and fortunately for Bob!) getting up when people are swinging at you is a bad thing. As he rises Bob brings the shortsword down and the wolf bits at the back of his throat. In other words, both Bob and the wolf get an attack of opportunity. Bob rolls an 7, which would normally be a 13 and miss... but the Orc is flanked, so its a 15 and hits. The druid rolls a 15 and just flat out hits the orc anyways. Bob does six damage and the wolf does 4. It is now very much an ex-orc.
Bob is now happy but is hoping the druid memorized a few healing spells.
There... that's the beginning to intermediate combat.
I can post an advanced combat if you really, really want some of the more complicated combat moves and situations.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Sat Jul 26, 2003 3:46 pm |
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Seth
Last Man Standing
Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Posts: 1008
Location: Faerun |
I don’t know what your profession is, but have you ever consider writing some manuals for AD&D (seriously)? Obviously you like the game and there is lots of people (myself included) who would like to start playing PnP. But due to difficult reading of original editions D&D and humorless material, it gets very tedious to pass more that 20 pages.
I don’t mean to sacking up to you but I really liked the way you explain things. If you ever release “D&D for clueless people” you have at least one potential buyer.
Of course I’m interested in reading more. However I do understand it takes a lot of your free time to cover all that material, so I don’t want putting any more pressure on you. I’m really thankful for all that.
_________________
Money - An article which may be used as a universal passport to everywhere except heaven, and as a universal provider of everything except happiness. |
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Sat Jul 26, 2003 11:22 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Well, if you want advanced combat... let's bring in Superjock, fighter extrordin - extrardin - extrindin--- uh, fighter smash stuff good like.
SuperJock is a high level fighter, so when he comes face to kneecap with a hill giant while on a camping trip he immediately reaches for Bertha the Big Axe and goes to work. Without questioning the giant while its there or anything... after all, if it wasn't supposed to die it wouldn't have been put in his way.
As he does this he is assaulted by ninja kobolds... normal kobolds who seemingly sprung up out of nowhere.
And a dark elf with paired scimitars because they're kewl.
Ok, you don't want SuperJock's DM as yours... that's the first tip.
SuperJock takes this in stride, however... he has a big axe and what more could a man ask for? To quote Divine Divinity "I am strong, like a man should be...".
SJ rolls initiative and gets a 17. Kobold ninjas roll a 14. Darky the Dark Elf gets a 21 (curse those drow-like reflexes). Mr Plow the hill giant gets a 4.
Darky is up first and with the declaration of "I will slice you to ribbons, fool!" he attacks. How he got within 5 feet of SJ will ever be a mystery to SJ... then again, considering how few points SJ spent on wisdom, spot, and listen you average elven toddler has a good chance of surprising him.
Darky, though, has made a classic mistake. For sake of coolness he is using two mediums weapons... which means at best he's taking a -4 penalty to all attacks... plus scimitars aren't weapon finessable, meaning he uses his much less cool drow strength of 12 to attack with them. Darky is a level 6 fighter (SJ is about level 9).
What this boils down to is Darky making three attacks... normally he's entitled to two attacks in a round for being level 6 (+6/+1 base attack). Using two weapons lets him make an extra one with his off-hand. Ah hah! Take that, Superjock! Ok... strength 12, two medium weapons (let's make them both +1), and the two weapon fighting feat. That yields attacks of (+6 + 1 - 4), (+6 + 1 - 4), and (+ 1 + 1 - 4).
With his staggering attack bonuses of +3/+3/-2 he attacks SJ. SJ is a real man's man, and is wearing Full Plate + 2, as well as a ring of protection +2, and has a 12 dexterity. This gives him an armor class of 23. But thanks to the ninja kobolds he is flanked, which gives him a -2 for a total of 21.
Darky unleashes his full drow fury, and rolls a 15 + 3, 13 + 3, 19 - 2. Outstanding rolls! None of which comes anywhere near getting through SJ's wall of steel.
"Dude." Darky says.
"Yeah, dude. That was weak." SJ replies confidently. "Check this out!"
The ninja kobolds have all also popped into SJ's axe range to get the cool flanking bonuses. SJ gives a mighty roar and swings his great axe.
SuperJock has a 18 strength. He started with a 16 at level 1 and put the attribute points he got at level 4 and 8 into it. He also loves his axe dearly, having paid an exorberant amount to make it +2, and he also has the weapon focus feat. This gives SuperJock an attack bonus of + 9 + 4 + 2 + 1 = +16. Yes, that's right... + 16.
The ninja kobolds, those whacky little fellas, have an armor class of 15, meaning he must roll higher than a -1 on a d20.
Needless to say, SJ hits the first kobold... who takes a manly 1d12 + 6 (strength bonus of +4 is increased 50% when using a weapon in two hands) + 2 (magic axe) + 2 (weapon specialization). The kobold, who has 8 hit points because he is a level 2 kobold ninja (rogue), takes 16 damage and explodes into kobold bits.
SJ has the feat great cleave, which specifies if you drop an opponent you get to keep on attacking... as long as opponents keep falling.
You can see where this is going.
Six more attack rolls and six more kobolds explode violently to the theme of ode to joy. The last attack roll is made against Darky himself, who is staring slack jawed as the body count racks up.
"But... but... but...." Darky says. Darky is super cool and dexterous and stuff so his armor class is 19... which means SuperJock must roll a 3 or higher, meaning he almost might considering breaking into a sweat. Almost. Or something.
SJ rolls a natural 20 and threatens for a critical hit. He confirms this critical hit with a roll of a 5 + 16.
"But... but... but..." Darky says. SJ rolls damage and rolls a 12 on the d12. Axes have a critical multiplier of x3 (it really, really sucks to be hit by an axe). That's 36 damage to start... + 6 from weapon specialization ... + 6 from weapon enchantment and +18 from strength alone.
Darky was notoriously tough for an elven fighter type and had a 14 con. Good on him. He had 47 hit points. He took 66. That is never good.
"Well, now that THAT is out of the way." Says a gore splattered SuperJock... he advances 5 feet carefully, so the giant doesn't get an attack of opportunity.
It is now the giants turn, who yawns, raises his club, and declares "Me will smash you... smash you to goo!" and attacks.
The giant is a horrific foe. It has over 100 hit points and an attack bonus of +17. They're called giants for a reason and all. The giant rolls a 12 and gets a 29, smashing SJ flat for a hearty 2d8 + 9 damage. SJ takes 15 and grunts. Fortunately he is tough 'as a man should be' and has a 16 con, giving him a respectable if not stellar 90 hit points (his max would have been 117).
The giant takes a second attack at +12 and rolls a 6, missing by a little bit.
"Ow." Goes SuperJock. It is now his turn and he is staring at a very large club coming his way again. Right now he has three options: Run like hell, kill the giant, or die. Running like hell would be the preferred method in this situation, but the downside to the full plate would be the fact the giant could catch him without so much as breaking a sweat... thus is SuperJock reminded of his Dwarven teacher's fighters creed:
"Here I stand, here I fight, here I win or die."
Superjock is a canny fighter... he has the expertise feat as well as the power attack feat. With these two feats he can:
- Raise his armor class by 5, which will drop his attack bonus to +11. Not a bad trade. A 27 armor class will mean the giant will have to roll a 15 or higher on his second attack... and a 10 or higher on his first. Superjock is guessing the giant has an armor class of about 18 or so. Rolling 7 and then 12 isn't a bad deal for changing the odds from 75% hit, 50% hit to 50%, 25% hit.
- Raise his damage by 5 (10 in 3.5), which will drop his attack bonus to +11. Changing his average damage to 21 will ensure he drops the giant in about 5 to 8 hits instead of 8 to 10. The giant will drop Superjock in 5 or 6.
- Do nothing, which will let him hit the giant on a 2 and a 7, ensuring constant damage. This will also let the giant hit HIM on a 5 and 10, though.
Yep, Superjock is cooked.
Then he has a flash of inspiration! The club is what is killing him!
SJ has the feat sunder... and improved sunder too. SJ has hit upon the heart of the fighter's power: Feats to burn, baby! As a human fighter level 9 he had 9 feats. Power attack, cleave, great cleave, weapon focus, weapon spec, expertise, sunder, improved sunder, and improved critical: great axe makes him a walking Death-By-Axe machine.
"Timmmmmmmmmmberrrrrrr!" SJ roars, and then hacks at the giant's club. This processes is called sundering and he's very good at it. He rolls his normal attack roll of +16 and adds +4 for using a two handed weapon. The giant rolls his normal attack roll of 17 and also gets a +4 (this time for size difference). It's a roll off, and Superjock rolls a 15 and the giant rolls a 12. HACK! The club has a hardness of 5 and 40 hit points. Superjock rolls well, getting a 10, which gives him a damage of 20. This gets doubled to 40 damage because of his improved sunder feat. The club has a hardness of 5, however, so it only take 35 damage. Superjock attacks again, this time with a -5 penalty (it's his second attack). The giant does NOT have this -5 penalty. Again it's a roll off, with the odds in the giants favor this time. Fortune is with Superjock, though, as he rolls a 16 and the giant rolls an 8. HACK! The club is toast, taking 25 damage.
"HEY!" The giant says, looking at his ruined club.
The giant punches Superjock, still rolling a +17, but only doing 1d6 + 7 damage instead of 2d8 + 9! Good call, Superjock! Superjock takes 10 damage. However the giant is attacking unarmed and possesses no natural weapons so it provoked an attack of opportunity. Attacks of opportunity are always made at full attack bonus, so Superjock rolls with his full glorious +16 bonus, and hits the giant for 18 damage.
"OW!" The giant says, swinging with his other fist. He misses Superjock by rolling an 8. If Superjock had the feat combat reflexes he could have taken a second attack of opportunity there.
It is now round two.
Superjock attacks, still screaming timber as this time he hacks at a leg. It's time to go for broke, he figures, and executes a 5 point power attack which gives him a -5 to attack rolls. He rolls a 9 + 11 and a 13 + 6, hitting with both attacks. He inflicts 42 damage (52 in 3.5). the giant is getting a little wobbly, having taken 60 or 70 damage.
It is now the giants turn, and he is beginning to feel the axe whacks. In sheeer deperation he executes the most complicated combat manoever in D&D: THe Grapple attack!
First off, Superjock gets to take a whack at him. He does so... power attack is still active until his next action, which is next round... so he makes the roll at +11 and whacks the giant yet again with a roll of 12 + 11. The giant grunts as it takes yet another brutal whack for 20 to 25 damage (depending on edition). In any case he's up to 80 or 90 damage, and has 104 hit points. He's not looking too good and thinks humans with axes are nasty, nasty little things.
Second is the attack roll: Superjock's armor doesn't help here... but his ring does. The giant performs a melee touch attack, meaning he rolls 1d0 + 17 against Superjock's unarmored AC... which is 13. Um... uh oh. The giant has successfully tackled Superjock.
Third phase is grapple phase: The giant makes his attack roll at +17 and adds +4 for being much bigger than superjock. Superjock rolls to avoid being grappled... as a defender he uses his highest attack bonus, which is 16, and power attack doesn't reduce it. The giant rolls a 10 and Superjock rolls a 12. Uh oh again.
Step 4: "Ah... my spleen!!!" The giant has grabbed Superjock in his mighty bear hug. He now has two options... he may attack with a light weapon (his fist in this case) or he can try and pin... literally squeezing the life out of Superjock. That sounds better (and ignores armor class). He can make as many grapple checks in a round as he has attacks, and they follow the same rules. This means this grapple check is made at + 12 + 4 ... the giant rolls another 10, getting a 26. Superjock needs a 10 here, but only gets a 7. He is now pinned, and the giant may crush him to death without any further rolls as long as he is so.
Round three
Superjock is heroically struggling to break free of the giants grasp. He doesn't have escape artist so he has to use brute force. Fortunately fighters are good at that. TO break free he makes an opposed roll... he rolls a 12 and adds 16 for a 28. The giant rolls a 5 and adds 21! Superjock is no longer pinned.
He is still grappled, though. He may use his second attack to either try and free himself entirely (and with a +11 vs a +21 nobody expects that to happen) or attack with a light weapon. Well... attack sounds good. Problem is he has no light weapon in hand and can't draw one during a grapple. Solution is wearing full plate, which comes with gauntlets naturally. Gauntlets are light weapons.
Superjock cocks his arm back and delivers a punch to the solar plexus, rolling 17 + 11. He does 1d3 + 4 damage, which turns out to be 7. The giant is now at 87 or 97 damage. We'll call it 97 which is 3.5, otherwise Superjock could have power attacked with the gauntlet (and should have). You can't power attack with light weapons in 3.5.
The giant grunts winded. It knows that it's bleeding to death... it also knows if it drops the nasty human and runs that axe is going to cut it down as it flees. So its only choice is to hold on for dear life, and keep that axe away! The giant attempts a pin, getting a 17 + 21. Yeah, that's a pin. Superjock cannot break that hold even if he rolled a 20.
The giant automatically deals squeeze damage on his second attack. That's 1d6 + 6, resulting to another 9 damage to Superjock. Superjock has take 31 damage out of his 90 hit points.
Round four
Superjock tries to break free and rolls a 3 + 16. He's not going anywhere.
The giant maintains his pin, squeezing twice for 2d6 + 12 total, for another 20 damage. Now superjock has take 51.
Round five
Superjock .... must... break free... he rolls a 12 + 16.
The giant rolls a 9 + 21 and says "Puny human!"
Grind, crunch. Another 16 damage. 66 is bad.
Round six
Superjock realizes that having a party around would be cool, as they'd all now be taking shots at a giant and would have it dead. He rolls a 18 + 16 for a 34 which at least gives him a chance.
The giant rolls a 12 + 21 for a 33! Superjock escapes the pin!
He attacks visciously with his gauntlet, rolling a 9 + 11 and punching the giant for another 7 damage. The giant is at 103! It's eyes cross as the last hit to the solar plexus knocks it unconscious!
Since it's at 0 hit points and helpless, Superjock wastes no time freeing himself and performing a Coupe De Grace (deathblow attack). CDGs are automatic hits, automatic criticals against helpless foes. Being automatic and all and feeling spiteful Superjock throws a +9 power attack in there (his maximum). The giant takes 75 damage, putting it well past -10 hit points... it won't be waking up from that nap.
Superjock is victorious... he just hopes the giant doesn't have any buddies hanging around between him and the closest cleric...
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Fri Aug 01, 2003 2:31 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Nice and...
...well maybe longest posts I ever read here.
(but this one is short and stupid :]) |
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Fri Aug 01, 2003 6:14 pm |
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Lord_Brownie
High Emperor
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 575
Location: Unfashionable arm of the spiral galaxy |
If I was the giant I would have grappled instead (in the first round), lets see puny fighter fight grappled against the giant's massive grapple bonuses for size and STR. |
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Sat Aug 02, 2003 12:15 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Yes, but the giant is stupider than the word stupider. His club got broken so he took a swing because he's stupid. Since doing that caused him pain the next round he proceeded to tackle the fighter.
Had it been something brighter like a stone giant, Superjock would be Superdead and in a Supercookpot making Superstew. Against a lone attacker a giant WILL simply grapple and crush a character to death.
After they've pounded you with boulders the size of a halfling while you closed. From concealment.
But Hill Giants are as dumb as ogres.
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
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=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Sat Aug 02, 2003 2:16 pm |
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ShadowWolfe
Noble Knight
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 205
Location: In the northern mountains of the western continent. |
Wow Xen, i got alot of the rule books for D&D and i barely understand the damned game ... let alone know it off by heart ...
like seth suggested you should jump on the Wizards bandwagon and get a job as a professional writer/rule maker or something ... again wow good job.
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Fri Aug 08, 2003 6:48 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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No thanks. I'd insist on doing things right and then go postal when their horrific editing team hacked my work to pieces, changed a few things (that would then need to be changed back through 'errata'... Wizards hasn't learned you can't patch a book), and removed key punctuation. I talked to Rich Redman (who co-wrote Savage Species)... he said he barely could recognize his work after the editing team got through with it.
Got to love how the 'release! release before they lose interest or we lose backers who want to see a profit right now! We can fix it later!' attitude, which started with computer products, has drifted into everything now...
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Fri Aug 08, 2003 12:02 pm |
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ShadowWolfe
Noble Knight
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 205
Location: In the northern mountains of the western continent. |
Editors and Censorers are a vile species indeed ... I'd hate to see my hardwork and effort ripped apart infront of my own eyes... I'd go postal aswell.
And by the way Im only referring to some of those species being vile ... not to offend any of our FRIENDLY editors 
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NIL MORTIFI, SINE LUCRE
Member of Dragon Lord
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.: Geforce FX 5900 Ultra
.: 1024mb DDr pc2700
.: 120GB UDMA 7200 RPM 2MB WD
.: 2 LG LCD Screens @ 19" Viewing |
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Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:48 pm |
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Seth
Last Man Standing
Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Posts: 1008
Location: Faerun |
Ok Xen I have a question and I hope it will be coherent enough for you to understand it.
Two weapons fighting – advantages and disadvantages, who is the best class with this feature (fighter, rogue, barbarian)?
For example if I have a long sword in one hand (and nothing or shield in the other), I roll this 1d8 + all the extras, but if I have a dagger in the second hand, do I have some penalty to my main weapon?
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Sat Sep 06, 2003 1:51 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Wow, the most complicated combat style comparison in the book. Well, here goes. Buckle up, this one will be confusing no matter what I do.
Two weapon fighting was the strongest style in second edition. It made no sense to do anything but. In 3rd edition, however, a LOT of people complain that it is the weakest form of combat. And they're mostly right.
Yes, you do get a penalty. It works like this. The first number is the attack penalty with your primary hand, the second number is the attack with your secondary hand:
No two weapon fighting feat and wielding two medium sized weapons (longswords, scimitars) = -8/-10 I think. I don't know for certain without checking the books because I know it's stupidly huge and no sane person would ever do it.
No two weapon feat and wielding a medium and a small weapon (longsword + dagger) is something like -6/-8. Again, don't do it.
Two weapon fighting feat wielding two medium weapons is -4/-4. Getting better here. Almost worth using, but still not really.
Two weapon fighting using a medium and a small is -2/-4. Almost as good as it gets.
Two weapon fighting using two small weapons is -2/-2. That's as good as it gets, and honestly... here is where it might begin to pay off.
Using a longsword/dagger at -2/-4 isn't the best way to handle things. The longsword does 1d8, the dagger does 1d4... so if you hit with both you're doing 2 to 12 damage maximum, averging 6 or 7.
Using two shortswords at -2/-2 also gives you 2 to 12 with 6 or 7 average. And you get a +2 to hit with the off hand basically.
With two weapon fighting you get to make one additonal attack at your main attack bonus per round, with the penalties for fighting with two weapons in. The weapon in your off hand inflicts half-strength damage.
So... a level 1 fighter with two weapon fighting and two short swords would be able to take two attacks at -2 over the guy with the longsword and shield or the guy with the greatsword.
Here's how the three fighting styles compare at level 1, all things being equal. Our fighters all have 14 strength (a good minium). Let's give them all studded armor and a shield if they want it.
Hacky McSlashy uses two shortswords = He attacks twice at +1 (+1 for being fighter, +2 for strength, -2 for two light weapons). If he hits both times he'll do 1d6+2 and +1d6+1 fpr a max of 13 damage. He's got an armor class of 13... actually 15 because he needs a 15 dex (+2 ac) to get two weapon fighting. Getting a 14 and a 15 isn't the easiest thing to do, so he's probably got a lower con than the other two. Let's put it 13 (the default stat array all playtest characters are built on is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8... if you really, really screw up rolling your character the DM is cruel if he doesn't let you take the default array instead of whatever crap you rolled). Putting his 13 to intelligence or con would be good... but the 12 in either works too and gives the same benefits. This gives him 11 hit points.
Swordy McTanky uses a sword and shield. He attacks once at +3 and does a max of 1d8+2 (10). His armor class is also at least 15 (studded leather, and the shield takes up the slack for +2). He put his 14 into con (so his strength is actually a 15, which doesn't matter for damage diffenece). He's got 12 hit points.
Whonk uses a greatsword. He attacks once at +3 and does 2d6+3 (+2 for strength +50% strength bonus using a weapon in two hand bonus = +1). Whonk has an armor class of 13 if he wants hit points, 15 if he's crazy and wants dex (he wants the hit points). He's got 12 hit points.
So in a fight at dueling distance (5 feet):
Hacky gets a +2 initiative because of his high dex. The other two don't, so he might go first. Going first is a good.
Hacky wins initiative and attacks twice. He needs to roll 14 or higher to hit Swordy, or a 12 or higher to hit Whonk. IF he hits both times and IF he does max damage on both hits he can drop either. But he probably won't hit both times. He's got a 35% chance of hitting Swordy, and a 45% chance of hitting Whonk.
Swordy needs a 12 or higher to hit Hacky or a 10 or higher to hit whonk. If he rolls max damage he can't drop either. 45% chance of hitting Hacky and a 55% chance of hitting poor Whonk.
Whonk needs a 12 or higher to hit Hacky or Swordy. If he rolls max damage, he massacres either. Statistically, while Whonk is easiest to hit right now, he has the highest potential for ending the fight in one blow.
Let's go to Level 6.
Hacky now wears a magical chain shirt +1 to capitalize on his dexterity score. At level four he put his dexterity to 16 and took weapon finesses to use dexterity instead of strength to hit. Every point helps after all. He also took weapon focus shortsword and weapon spec shortsword. At level 6 he took improved two weapon fighting as well, which allows him to take a second attack with his off hand at a -5 penalty. Let's give him shortswords +1. Level 6 also gives him a second primary at a -5 penalty (the charts handle this one invisibly in the book).
Hacky now looks like this: +6/+6/+1/+1 (base attack, improved two weapon fighting) -2/-2/-2/-2 (two weapon penalty) +1/+1/+1/+1 (weapon focus) +1/+1/+1/+1 (magic weapon bonus) +3/+3/+3/+3 (dexterity bonus).
Complicated, it is. Two weapon fighting annoying to calculate, it is, yes.
Anyways, that's a total of +9/+9/+4/+4. He's got an armor class of 18 (10 +3 dex +4 armor + 1 magic) and 41 hit points (11 level 1 + take average of 5 per level + con per level). He does 1d6 + 5 damage with his primary hand and 1d6+4 with his off hand. If he hit with all four attacks, he could do a maximum of 42.
Swordy is nice and simple. He put his strength to 16 at level 4 like a good little fighter. He also took weapon focus and weapon specialization. He's got Full Plate +1 and a Shield +1. +6/+1 (base attack) +3 (strength) +1 (weapon focus longsword) +1 (magic sword).
That's +11/+6. Armor class is 22 (10 + 8 armor +2 shield + 2 magic). He's got 47 hit points (same method as above, little higher con). He does 1d8+6 and can do a total of 28 damage if he hits both times.
Whonk put his strength to 16, has focus, specialization, full plate +1, greatsword +1. +6/+1 +3 + 1 + 1 is again +11/+6. Armor class is 19 (as above, -3 for not having a shield). Hit points are 47 and he can do 2d6+7 per hit, for a maximum of 38.
And so in the fight Hacky will hit Swordy on a 13, 13, 18, 18. That's... well... 40%, 40%, 15%, 15%. His average damage is 8 and 7. Those odds aren't so hot. He must hit Swordy or Whonk 6 or 7 times to beat them.
Hacky will hit Whonk on a 10, 10, 15, 15. Hey hey... 55%, 55%, 30%, 30%.
Swordy will hit Hacky on a 7 and a 12. Swordy smiles as he gets a healthy 70%, 45% hit chance. Hacky isn't smiling so much. Swordy hits Whonk on a 8 and 13 (65, 40). He does 10 damage a hit on average and so much hit Hacky or Whonk 5 times to be sure.
Whonk will hit Hacky on a 7 and 12. Whonk will hit Swordy on a 11 (50) and 16 (25). Whonk is not amused at swinging at Swordy and his stupid shield using ways. He does an average of 13 damage a hit and so he must hit Hacky three times and Swordy 4.
If D&D wasn't a game of chance, this is how things would break down.
Hacky vs Swordy: If he attacks 10 times with his primary attack, and 10 times with his secondary attack he'll hit 4 times with his primary and once with his secondary. Five hits isn't enough! More! More! 5 more times with his primary and off will get him the two extra hits he needs. 30 attacks against Swordy will do the trick. It will take him 8 rounds.
Hacky vs Whonk: The 10/10 method will yield 5 + 3 hits. Whonk goes down hard in 5 rounds.
Swordy vs Hacky: While Hacky goes turbo-ginsu, Swordy also will get to use the 10/10 method. This will yield him 7 + 4 hits... erm... 11 hits. That takes him 10 rounds to do and is massive overkill. Let's halve that statstically to 5/5 for 4 + 2 hits. It's still overkill, and it takes him 5 rounds. Hacky gets a nice despaired look on his face, as Swordy will kill him on average 3 rounds earlier than he would kill Swordy.
Swordy vs Whonk: The 10/10 method again yields an overkill of 6 + 4 in 10 rounds. Halving that to 3 + 2 = 5 in Five rounds. Whonk goes down hard in 5 rounds. Again. Whonk angry.
Whonk vs Hacky: The 10/10 method yields a horrible, horrible overkill of 6 + 4 hits. Halving it yields 3 + 2. Still so far past overkill it's not funy. Let's try thirding it. That's 2 + 1, which is what Whonk needs. It takes him... Three rounds. Hacky gets to squeak in protest before he sucks pavement.
Whonk vs Swordy: 10/10 yields a discouraging 5 + 2. Overkill by a bit. Halving that to 3 + 1 is four hits, which is what he needs. It takes him 5 rounds to do it. Ook.
So Hacky vs Swordy: Loss 8 rounds to 5
Hacky vs Whonk: Loss 5 rounds to 3.
Swordy vs Whonk: Tie 5 rounds to 5 rounds.
But there are no ties in D&D. Whoever rolled the higher initiative would win that fight. Using my math method, though... they both got the exact same initiative roll, and have the same dexterity, and thus act simultaneously.
Swordy vs Whonk: Double KO in 5 rounds.
Mind boggled yet? I can post the level 11 example if you want... it's where Hacky is up to 6 attacks a round to Swordy and WHonk's three.
As I said, things are never this formulated in D&D. Someone, somewhere in there scored a critical hit and did double damage for certain. Somewhere in there someone had a bad streak with the dice and missed five times in a row. However, long term the math must prevail... so I gave you the facts so you can see how the styles stack up.
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:14 pm |
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Seth
Last Man Standing
Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Posts: 1008
Location: Faerun |
 You were right this is confusing. Thanks God that the calculation are done automatically by PC, but besides that I think I will skip that Hacky McSlashy and go for two-hand weapon instead – power to the people!
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Money - An article which may be used as a universal passport to everywhere except heaven, and as a universal provider of everything except happiness. |
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Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:19 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Two handed weapon yields the most damage in the least time at the highest attack bonus. It's the superior style, but your armor class takes a hit.
It's the way to go with a character with a strength of 14 or higher, without a doubt. A half orc character who starts with an 18 strength (not that hard) will do +6 damage at level one as opposed to +4 damage for using sword and shield.
Plus, using 3.5 rules power attack with a two handed weapon inflicts double your penalty in damage. So if you do a five point power attack with a greatsword with that orc... you will take a -5 to hit and do 2d6+16. SPLAT!!!
Even if you do a two point power attack, you will yield 2d6+10. That's a 22 max. Hacky with an 18 strength could do (1d6 + 4) + (1d6 + 2) for a total of 2d6+6 for the same -2 penalty.
Now where two weapon fighting starts to win is when you get highly magical weapons that add damage dice, like flaming. In the above example two flaming shortswords would yield 2d6+6+2d6 flaming damage, for 30 damage max. The two handed sword flaming would do 2d6+10+1d6... 28 max.
Magic screws with everything.
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Mon Sep 08, 2003 1:35 pm |
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Seth
Last Man Standing
Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Posts: 1008
Location: Faerun |
If I wanted to tell you that I’m impressed with your knowledge that would be great understatement.
On another note, in different topic on different board (The Art of the reviews), Myrthos mentioned that you are one of these dying species of the honest reviewers (write review after playing the whole game). How do you planning to write here, with 9 possibilities to start and God knows how many to finish?
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Money - An article which may be used as a universal passport to everywhere except heaven, and as a universal provider of everything except happiness. |
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Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:16 pm |
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