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anderstychsen
Village Dweller
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 2
Location: Australia |
| Believability of virtual worlds and ecologies |
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Believability of virtual worlds and ecologies
Hey all
During a recent analysis of the relatively new Diablo-clone Sacred, it struck me that I felt absolutely no suspension of disbelief while playing. It did not bother me too much that I had to slaughter hundreds of creatures that wandered around aimlessly, seemingly without any purpose except to kill my “overfeatured”, bikini-clad avatar. What ruined the experience was the fact that hordes of goblins would jump me whenever I got within sight, but stay away from e.g. an unprotected farm. They would even follow an avatar into the farm, without ever considering the farmer a viable target. Later on in the game, a 10 ton dragon attacked using wings that was seemingly attached with duct tape, ignoring the demands on the body structure it takes for an organism of that size to have wings, or even use them in a 1G environment.
Such discrepancies in games are not uncommon, and are somewhat alleviated by the willing suspension of disbelief of the players when they enter a game world. The suspension of disbelief is however ruined when something occurs, within the physical parameters of the virtual world, that is obviously not realistic. While a “Plane of Fire” as physical environment is perfectly acceptable to most, having a creature spawning out of thin air every 30 minutes in an MMO, for the sole reason of providing XP for the grinder, is not (e.g. Ultima Online). It is not even realistic within the fiction of the game world, and ruins the suspension of disbelief. If such problems could be avoided in a realistic, believable (within the game fiction) and consistent manner, games would be more immersive and the believability greater - my all-too-obvious and age-old point here being that some features we can accept within the parameters of the illusion, others break the illusion.
Added realism does not mean eliminating any fantastic elements, but adding depth and dimension. For example, a fantasy world might feature magic, and such a pseudo-argument can be used to explain why a 10 ton dragon can fly. However, it does not justify why the dragon has to spawn every 30 minutes at a given place. Thinking about the ecological setting of the world, we might be able to come up with a better system for the appearance of the dragon, which is plausible. Also, if biophysically a bit better modeled, the dragon might even feel more realistic.
Not all creatures of all games should be like real world organisms. Not everything in a virtual world should be explained using the laws of science. However, various features of the real world can inspire, and be directly utilized, to enhance virtual worlds by adding realism. This is an old, worn-out discussion, but I will try to give it a new twist by proposing that by applying natural sciences theory and techniques, a range of problems in games could be solved. Not only can the natural sciences be used to solve specific issues, but they also offer a way of completely changing the way that the virtual worlds themselves, and its related mobiles, act.
I see at least two venues for this type of thinking: 1) Physical world modeling (including ecology) and: 2) Biology, biophysics and behavior (ecological relationships) of creatures. I will here focus on the latter subject:
It is quite obvious that MMOs do not emphasize ecological realism - just think about predator-prey relationships. It is common to walk around in a game world meeting nothing but ferocious, meat-eating monsters (intelligent or otherwise). It is also common for mobs in a game to feature only one of two types of behavioral patterns: Either they are killing machines, intent on the destruction of the players, or they are harmless critters, whom the players have virtually no way of interacting with.
Unless explained within the fiction of the world, this is not very realistic and hurts the suspension of disbelief. Even a cow will be angered or frightened if stabbed or shot by a player, and its frantic mooing may bring down the wrath of the nearby 1,500 pound bull. In short, the ecological setting is unnatural, and the behavior of the organisms is one-dimensional.
With a bit of programming effort, ecological principles could be used to generate a more viable ecology for a given virtual world. In the short term, ecological and biological principles could be applied to specific problems, such as modifying the kill-monster-for-xp-system with the introduction of realistic predator-prey abundances. This also needs to new types of challenges, e.g. environmental management.
To give a primitive example of ecological thinking, take spawning and camping: A dragon with substantial treasure spawns every 30 minutes, leading players to camp around the spawn point. The players know that the spawning is a control measure, with no in-game explanation for its appearance given. This breaks the illusion.
The problem is that with the XP and leveling system being the way it is, it is necessary for the players to have a certain amount of mobs to handle in each time frame. How could we make sure that there was a dragon there every 30 minutes of game time, or a similar challenge, while maintaining a plausible explanation? The answer could be migration. The dragons have a nursery in a mountain nearby, an inaccessible mountain where adult dragons flock, spawn and rear their young. Every once in a while, the young leave the nests, and seek out their own paths in the world. This means that every X time – which could be randomized a bit – dragons would migrate to the surrounding area, giving the players the challenge they need. This means that there may not be a dragon spawning every 30 minutes, but 10 migrate into the territory every 3 hours. The XP-effect is the same, and players knowing the migration routes can still camp out. But now there is no spawning, there is a reason why the dragons are there, which forms the basis for more varied quests. There is no need for instanced worlds, either. By adding some fuzzy logic, the areas where the young dragons settle could be varied (as in nature), as could the intervals – e.g. as a figure of the time of year – and thus camping becomes not viable. Players would have to walk around a bit to find a dragon, work out any migration routes, or maybe rumours would spread when it was known where a flock of the young dragons had settled. This takes a bit more programming than the spawning solution, but might it be worth the effort?
More advanced uses for the natural sciences could be ecological modeling, population statistics and prediction of player behavior, simulation of weather effects on biological organisms, seasonal variations/migrations, biophysically guided modeling of creatures and even evolution of organisms: Imagine an area where creatures evolved rapidly according to adaptive theory: Use fireballs and they evolve to compensate, until random mutation removes the adaptation strain, alters it, or the players eliminate every mob with the mutation strain. The end result is constantly challenging opponents.
To sum up, the question is whether biological/geological/etc. thinking has a place in games and if so, whether the subject is of interest in lieu of the cost-benefit thinking in the industry. I believe that the gains of working on integrating elements of the natural sciences in games could be huge, but I lack the experience to determine whether this is correct – which forms the basis for posting these musings. What do you think?
Anders Tychsen
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"The world loves a bastard" - Arnold Juda Rimmer, Red Dwarf Series |
Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:45 am |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
Brilliant! It certainly does, but mostly in games in the future. The only game i can think of that has any of that stuff is Trials of Ascension. That game is truelly a massive undertaking, rules-system-wise. I was trying to make a game like this, but to be honest, its too damn complicated and would have taken me 10 years alone, in my room, facing the computer, slaving, to ever have it make it out of the room, and then it would have been too far behind graphically to even get released by anyone, and so i would have to revamp the entire graphics, and that would be just a headache. The things you talk about would be awesome in an CRPG, but unless i partnered with someone to do it with and had adequate funding, there is NO WAY i would do it alone. You are talking about simulation, so i do know what you mean. Ive been thinking nearly about the same thing in different terms for about four years, in artificial intelligence and artificial life terms. If there was someone i could partner up with that had the mojo and time to do it, i would, but most people dont have any money or investable time to do it with (myself included).
So mainly im waiting... looking out for Trials of Ascension to change EVERYTHING that is going to happen eventually in CRPGs. Simply, to make them more realistic and believable, instead of so artificial and contrived. Most CRPGs are merely clones of previous incarnations. Morrowind, a great game, was still far too static, and the game you mentioned, Sacred, was not a simulation in the least. the Problem is that nobody has ever even feigned to attempt this. Its too computationally expensive and extremely labor intensive. We dont have the hardware, nor the software obviously. Until games industry gets to the point of the upcoming graphical and hardware threshold, there isnt going to be much innovation done in the software side. Im waiting for that day to happen, and granted, i might be waiting my entire lifetime. I just wish i had enough money and partners to make that great evolutionary CRPG world simulation, but i dont have the money and i dont have the partners, so i guess its just a dream that goes Poof.
I could attempt it alone, i believe, but everybody knows that nobody can do this alone without other people backing you up and supporting you, both financially and through team-effort. It would be an incredibly daunting undertaking. But the result would be revolutionary.
I suggest you take a look at TRIALS OF ASCENSION. You might be surprised at what they are doing. Its at www.shadowpool.com
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www.shadowpool.com
www.darkfallonline.com |
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Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:46 am |
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anderstychsen
Village Dweller
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 2
Location: Australia |
| Full-blown economies versus taking it one step at a time |
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I agree that generating a full-blown ecological simulation is out of scope even for the big games companies today. Within the biological sciences, we are trying to generate fairly advanced simulations of biological systems using Geographical Information Systems, but these are still greatly simplified. There are just too many variables.
However, what I am aiming at is not as much complete realism but added realism, which can be accomplished with existing software/programming tools. If online worlds are to become more realistic – within the fictional framework – it will probably have to come in smaller steps. Such as using ecological and biological theory to eliminate artificial spawning systems. Or using geological principles to generate deep histories of a virtual world. This would not require the massive programming and development work you mention, but might still have a considerable impact on the believability? It is my impression that the games industry does not take any initiatives unless they are fairly certain it amounts to an improved financial outcome. As you mention, this is probably one of the reasons why most MMORPGs in terms of the world fiction, are very similar.
AI and AL in MMORPGs and everywhere else are very interesting subjects in relation to ecology/biology/biophysics, and I have seen some initiatives in the right direction concerning artificial reefs in Australia, however, mostly for exhibition purposes.
I will check out Trials of Ascension, thanks for the hint!
Cheers
Anders Tychsen
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"The world loves a bastard" - Arnold Juda Rimmer, Red Dwarf Series |
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Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:15 am |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
I have been speaking on this topic for some years now - hoping anybody with the capabilities of developing an MMORPG might listen  . It is patently obvious to me that these steps are needed. The general argument that is used is that it would take far too much time and effort and probably cannot even be done with today's level of technology. While I agree that the ULTIMATE product cannot - that is NO reason to not start with small steps.
Your first simple example - having dragons (and I would suggest it be done with living entity in the game world) be "born" in natural manner in natural settings and then enter the world in natural pathways - it can be burroughs, nests, etc. that are (as they tend to be in real life) out of the prying eyes of people. If this step alone were done in any of the existing MMORPGs, it would go a long way toward adding the realism and roleplay and gameplay we need.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:16 pm |
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Guybrush Threepwood
High Emperor
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 500
Location: Oklahoma |
I couldn't be bothered to read all that but.... I agree on one thing. You should see more critters and beings preying on each other.
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"What are you gonna do? Release the dogs?! Or the bees?! Or dogs with bees in their mouth so that when they bark they shoot bees at you?" - Homer Simpson |
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Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:01 am |
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