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mDrop
High Emperor
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 479
Location: Under the desk |
Last night something terrible just occured to me. I was playing NWN, ch2 and I suddenly realized that I had been more interested in optimizing my equipment and monitoring my exp and leveling than the story itself. When and how did this happen? I have played my ranger as I see fit for him, as well as my alignment. There has been a lot of room to act the way you want and I'm grateful for that, as well as the difference intelligence and charisma makes with insight and persuation, but my interest in the overall story is not what it should be.
My previous game was Morrowind and I was all for the story. My character was far from optimal, but he was just the way I imagined him and I played the various stories with great passion.
In NWN, the start was interesting and I enjoyed the plot, still do, but at some point my focus shifted. I am a veteran PnP player and have always liked to play a good story, both in RPGs and CRPGs. This is the first time in a game with a good story that I have somehow managed to alienate myself from it.
Has anybody else had this happen and what did you do? My decision is to slow down tonight, read all the unread volumes I'm lugging around, reread the quests I have been given and start playing with some more thought to what's happening around me. This would be a good point, since the quest I'm on is perfect for my ranger to flex his character and be the saviour of nature.
I don't think the game is to blame, as I've enjoyed the plot when I have been focusing on it and the interaction and dialogue is great, with people having real personalities and opinions.
I don't know if I have any real point with this rant, but it really bothers me, especially if I can't manage to get immersed in the story again...
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 12:24 pm |
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Hexmaster
Noble Knight
Joined: 17 Jan 2002
Posts: 206
Location: Bristol, England |
I had the same problem with NWN and also BG & BG2.
I think you have answered your own question already.......slow down.
The reason for me, I think, is "Diablo Syndrome", rush..kill..kill..rush and to some extent Dungeon Siege.
I found the answer to be exaclty what you mentioned. Read all of the scripted stuff, books etc. Pay more attention to every dialogue option, explore every dialogue option also.
I dont have this problem with Morrowind as the "pace" of the game is slower anyway.
You are not alone.
Regards,
Hexmaster
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 1:07 pm |
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mDrop
High Emperor
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 479
Location: Under the desk |
One thing that came to my mind after reading your post was the difference in character development. MW has a fairly good (albeit a bit unbalanced) system for skills and levels, where you could develop yourself to the direction you wanted without thinking about leveling and stuff like that. With the standard D&D-XP system, it's impossible to get better without slaying hordes of enemies. Maybe that makes us frenzy, especially when you level up pretty quickly in NWN. I'm now lvl 13 and I'm not far in ch.2...
In PnP it's not a problem, since you level more slowly and most of the XP we got was DM-given bonuses for good roleplaying, monster XP was toned down a great deal. In CRPG, measuring good roleplaying is impossible, atleast in the single player mode. If and when I start my campaign, I'll tone down the XP players get from monsters and award them with bonuses when I think they are playing according to their character as well as making good decisions.
I began testing the multiplayer yesterday and while I didn't find any excellent servers, I got a bit of roleplaying done and it seemed stable, atleast on my rig. I'm putting my hopes on that if my Diablo-syndrome (I think that should be the official term for this  ) doesn't settle
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 1:19 pm |
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Hexmaster
Noble Knight
Joined: 17 Jan 2002
Posts: 206
Location: Bristol, England |
Nice one,
Hexmaster. 
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 1:29 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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I (sort of) addressed the pacing and hacking of NWN in another forum.
WHat it comes down to is that 3e is designed on leveling a PARTY up every 13.3 'balanced' encounters. So if 4 level 10 characters defeat 14 CR 10 monsters they should go up a level. If they defeat a CR 13 or 14 in there they will level up faster. If they mostly fight CR 7 or 8 they will level up slower.
Now, in NWN.... 13 creatures of your level to level up? No way. They knew that would be WAY to fast so they divided the experience gained by 10. So now you would have to defeat 130.
So instead of 14 * 20 = 280 "Really Good Fights" over a character's career (a typical D&D campaign, they determined, lasts about 2 years... 140 fights per year = two or three fights every week during a weekly playing session. Less with 'tougher' foes.) they have elected for 2800 fights over the 30 to 100 hours you might spend playing the single player.
Faced with that the Diablo syndrome kicks in. Especially at low levels where surviving an axe hit is a miracle, let alone 3 guys with clubs. You want to get tougher so you STOP DYING. And then once you ARE tougher you want to become even more powerful.
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 2:34 pm |
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mDrop
High Emperor
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 479
Location: Under the desk |
Great points, Xen. Haven't played D&D as PnP for so long time, didn't really remember all of that. In Vampire and Werewolf, which are the last two I played, the characters are quite powerful from the start, atleast when dealing with humans. In those games, leveling wasn't as important as the storytelling and interaction. Equipment was also your standard fangs/claws/H&K MPK5 and some silver bullets...
In D&D, Rolemaster and other classic games, getting from lvl 1 to 3 and then to 5 was really important and took some effort. After lvl 5 you could ease down a bit. That's why we usually started out with lvl 3 characters, just to avoid that pointless tinkering with small monsters and possible ruining of the story.
One of the problems is the enormous quantity of healing potions in most of the games. My character is carrying atleast 20 potions of cure critical and I have bought maybe five of them myself, the rest were just lying around everywhere. In PnP, I don't recall us having even cure lesser potions around. The only thing we had was our own cleric with maybe couple of healign spells, atleast in the first few levels. Battles tend to get a bit too epical when your hero is drinking so many healing potions that his bladder should burst...
Not to mention other magic items.. Stone of recall comes handy when you have to drag your loot back every few dungeon levels you explore. Ofcourse it's nice to have good equipment and get rewarded for managing to clear out that corner room full of nasty critters, but enough is enough.. I think this was covered in another thread, so enough of that.
In the end, I don't think it comes down to levels as much as the equipment and potions you get too early and too easily in games, almost every RPG nowadays has these faults. But the balance is hard to find. I bet most of us would be really angry if any of the recent games would be scarce on equipment and didn't reward the players enough...
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 2:57 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Potions of cure light are the only thing CHEAPER in NWN than in pen and paper. In NWN they cost 30... in pen and paper it's around 50 to 100.
Personally, I haven't found the treasure given out so far to be too far in excess. You DO get a lot of gold, yes... by way of selling stuff. But everything is SO EXPENSIVE that it sort of balances itself out. Equipment is at least 50% more expensive then it is in pen and paper.
Of course, I don't usually DRINK healing potions in combat... just after if I can't rest. And you can always rest. Recall back and take a nap...
The Stone of Recall is where things break down a little. Without it you wouldn't be able to carry and sell everything you find, wouldn't be able to rest whenever you want (for the most part you can anyways... but with the stone it's ANY time), etc. But the other alternative... leave it out of a game with no other means of fast travel? They did that with Dungeon Siege... I hated walking all the way back to town (but Dungeon Siege compensated by never having you NEED to visit the same town twice...).
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 3:23 pm |
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Yog Sothoth
The All in One
Joined: 01 May 2002
Posts: 1086
Location: Between Space and Time |
About the carring system: you have to think that in PnP games you play in a party and you can carry a LOT of stuffs... in NWN you're alone and your carring capacity is limited (think of a weak wizard with 10 of str!). The Stone of Recall is the only solution to earn some money without going crazy up and down from levels... IMO
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 4:09 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
I'd like to add my own little multi-player perspective on that. I've logged in a good many hours online now, and I've DM'ed one good session so far. Maybe I've been unlucky while playing around, but when I finally find a server to play on in MP, I always (or at least very often) get into games that feel very rushed. I don't mean the module. I mean the players. They play this like it was Diablo. Running around looking for monster and hoping to be the first to find the chest to get some loot. There's hardly any attention to the story (if there is any).
Now, when I DM'ed my own built module, I ended up being a bit disapointed. Not by the game, and not only because I should have spent a bit more time fine tuning my encounters which were too tough. That was my own fault and only means I have to re-work things a bit. What disapointed me was the way the players went through the thing as if they didn't expect a story there. The plot was pretty straightforward, and there wasn't anything too difficult. They're given a cursed sword by some elusive druid who wants the party to head west through the wilderness to a specific town and meet her back there while she tries to attract her persuers in a different direction.
Now, my perspective in making this module, while clearly trying to steer the characters in a set direction, is that I am hoping these players to roleplay the part as if they are real people. They don't really get any time to ask questions to this druid, so they're left alone to try and make a decision: do they even want to get the sword where they'Re asked to take it? What's with this sword and its curse? And then all through the module they're faced with decisions of whether or not to do what they are told they should do, or try and find different ways of solving a problem. I mean, I'm expecting to be surprised here as a DM into having to improvise depending on the character's actions.
What I found out though, is that the players tend to play this as if it was a computer game (which it is, of course) and not so much as if it's a player created module with a DM steering it as he/she sees fit. Looking at them clicking through the dialogs I had carefully thought up as if it was a useless plot advancing tool straight from diablo made me cringe in some places. They just didn't pay attention at all. At one point they didn't even remember what it was they had to do in the first place, which was head west and meet up with the druid from the beginning, which isn't something very hard to remember.
I don't think it's the players' fault. I think we're too used to being handed things that are static and set in stone. We're not used to play things by the ear in a computer game. So players just gobble up what they're suppose to do, and follow on without question. Dialogue? Who needs dialogue? It's a computer game! When I took possession of an NPC and started talking, often time I only had one of the characters staying in front of me to talk, while the others went around looking for something... I didn't play that way in my pnp days. When there was a dialogue with an NPC, everyone listened and played in character, and participated (if they could) in the conversation. I rarely went around looking for encounters while our party leader talked with someone. But that's what seems to be happening here.
All this points to the "toning down" of RPGs in computer games. And maybe it even explains why mDrop had a hard time "slowing down" as he said. Because most of the time in a single player mode you have the feeling whatever the NPC will say doesn't really matter because you know what you have to do: kill monsters.
I wish and hope the player mentality will change over time with NWN, because we have been given the tools to improvise here, which has never been given before! NWN will be revolutionary for that, at least. But few seem to have picked this up yet, even those who like the game. Of course, it's not as easy to improvise as a DM in NWN as it is in PnP. I can't just draw up a crude map out of the blue to react to the players saying they want to visit a place I hadn't even thought they would go before. But still, within the confines of the relative freedom of the game engine, there is a great opportunity to sit down and talk about your options as a party. To slow down and ask: What are we doing here? Do we really want to go on? Is it a trap? Start a discussion among players and decide then what you will do next instead of just dashing forward without any plan.
One example, taken from my one DM'ed module experience: The party arrives in a valley that spreads out in front of them in three branches heading North, South, and West straight ahead. I thought the players would stop, send a scout ahead to see what was up and which direction seemed safest, discuss about it. What did they do? Walk North aimlessly because someone just went there first and everyone else followed, wlaking straight into a trap...
I hope players will earn experience as the game matures. Oh, and I'm VERY sorry for the extremely long rant/post, whatever you wish to call it 
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 4:29 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Scout? A paladin doesn't need a scout! His faith and determination will guide him to where he needs to be the most (also, I got lost due to the camera view I was using and thought I was heading west for a while...)
As for wandering around while the dialogue occurred... others were speaking so I took it upon myself to walk perimeter patrols... a sensible precaution considering the vast number of ogres and elementals who had assaulted us getting to that point! 
(I also missed the lead up... but once I had the demon sword I belittled and mocked it's wickedness in a manner befitting of my role. )
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 4:39 pm |
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mDrop
High Emperor
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 479
Location: Under the desk |
@Ekim, interesting. It must be so that we aren't used to really expect anything but killing and exploring from the plot when playing CRPGs, be it NWN or Diablo, the end result tends to be the same like you said. I also hope that we will learn to think NWN, for example, as a "real" RPG when playing good modules with friends.
I read a good advice from somewhere, could have been NWN community. It suggested that DMs ask their players to walk instead of running. It slows down the pace and gives DMs more time to react. The players get some time to think too, when they are not sprinting across areas. The game is still young it I think the next autumn will whether this will succeed or fail. I hope this will create a new way of playing over the net, but you never know..
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"If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance."
- George Bernard Shaw
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 5:36 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by mDrop
I read a good advice from somewhere, could have been NWN community. It suggested that DMs ask their players to walk instead of running. It slows down the pace and gives DMs more time to react. The players get some time to think too, when they are not sprinting across areas. The game is still young it I think the next autumn will whether this will succeed or fail. I hope this will create a new way of playing over the net, but you never know..
That's some good advice, and I had thought about it too. It seems more like a playing style now, but I think it would suit NWN better, especially in mutiplayer and DM'ed games. Players tend to be running left and right, and lose sight of each other, so imagine how the DM feels about it Sure, there's the quick option to "jump" to a player's position in a blink of an eye, but if everyone is spread out on a map, that doesn't help any.
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 6:08 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
Scout? A paladin doesn't need a scout! His faith and determination will guide him to where he needs to be the most (also, I got lost due to the camera view I was using and thought I was heading west for a while...)
As for wandering around while the dialogue occurred... others were speaking so I took it upon myself to walk perimeter patrols... a sensible precaution considering the vast number of ogres and elementals who had assaulted us getting to that point!
(I also missed the lead up... but once I had the demon sword I belittled and mocked it's wickedness in a manner befitting of my role. )
I don't doubt all that Xen, and you're right, you were playing in a manner befitting your role and alignment of course. What I'm trying to say though is that I didn't get a feeling that everyone was part of a single group. Rather, everyone was on their own and there was very little interaction between all of you. When you play pnp, if you will be walking the perimeter while others talk, you will generally announce it to others, and they will expect you to keep a watch. Chaotic characters might not fully trust you and some will say you shouldn't go alone. That's all rightly part of playing within a living group. But that's not really how it was played out as I saw it.
Again, I'm not trying to put blame on anyone, or to say that things went bad. I think we all had a good time anyway (apart from all the dying - I'm sorry again ). I'm just trying to point out that everyone seems to be in a state of "single player" syndrome, where we're used to play within a party of AI controlled characters and acting out as such. If you've ever played a group based MMORPG, you know that it just can't work that way. There has to be some form of cummunication for the group to gel well together. There has to be roles assigned to people. And in NWN there has to be things discussed and balanced between characters.
As a DM in NWN, a delicate balance seems to have to be reached also, between battles and letting the players act their role. If there are fights at every corner, there's no room for RPing. If there aren't enough battles, then as a DM I would be afraid to lose the interest of the players. In that last session, I went too heavy on the battles. MUCH too heavy. But the few moments of RPing that could have been weren't very much acted out. There was one instance before you came in which presented a good scene, but it's one exception. Lintra and NC started whispering to one another in a little village when they felt as if they were being shadowed by a villager. It was a great rush for me as a DM, a nice moment. I didn't know what to expect out of them. They also short handed me in one place when they decided to head straight where I hope they wouldn't go before passing by another place. It forced me to improvise a bit quickly. But that was an accident really, not due to anyone playing a role, or planning something.
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 6:26 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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I walked whenever possible... but if I did that I got left way, way behind. I run in combat when time is of the essence (and get attack of opp'd for it too) to save the others. Or when there is a truly HUGE piece of landscape to travel over.
And any time I tried to get others (NC in particular) to slow down and think first... well... I'd blink and they'd be a little pink blip far in the distance on my automap...
My friend is like that too while we're playing the single player campaign together. He left me to die so often when dashing off to slaughter rooms full of creatures (he's a fighter... it's what he does) that I hired Red Tiger for the sole purpose of defending my poor rogue!
I just blink innocently whenever he dies or triggers a trap I saw a mile away or misses a key bit of scenery or treasure and say "Diablo much?"
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 6:45 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
hehehe
Yes, I think running around aimlessly is a syndrome we have to break out of. At least as far as NWN is concerned.
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 7:46 pm |
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